-THE- ALL-IN Roach Rush Toss... can stop :(

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Posts: 1,119
EDIT: Horst and I played a bunch of games and finally honed a strat that not only destroys this build, but also destroys the regular 7RR. You will still have lots of success vs normal toss enemies, but if they play Horst's strategy you -will- lose.

Since I modified my 7 roach rush seen here:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/902030865

I figured I'd make a new post to discuss the all-in variation on this strategy.

First off, perhaps some replays are in order:

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=160829
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96114-1v1-protoss-zerg-jungle-basin
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96122-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war

So, the basic strategy is you follow my FAST 7 roach rush build order with just one small change involving the queen:

Send your first overlord toward the enemy's ramp.
11/10 extractor trick
11/10 ol
spawning pool as SOON as overlord pops
drones to 15
extractor (3 drones on this as soon as it pops)
drones to 16
queen as SOON as spawning pool drops
18/18 build a roach warren at the first available 150 min
drone to 18/18
Overlord
Overlord
18/34 supply
Queen hatches (spit IMMEDIATELY on hatch)

Ok, at -this- point in the build look at your first overlord (the one you sent to the enemy's ramp). Do you see the standard 1 zealot wide doorway with gateway/assimilator build, or some other wall-in that lacks cannons? If so, he has already lost, he just doesn't know it yet. -IMMEDIATELY- RUN THE QUEEN STRAIGHT TOWARD THE ENEMY RAMP - SHE IS SLOW AND WILL NEED THE TRAVEL TIME

Note: If you -do- see a HARD cannon wall behind a full block gateway/assim (no space to run through), keep the queen at home, fast expand, and immediately tech to mutas or hydras while building some spore crawlers to protect against a potential fast void ray or phoenix. Wasting tons of minerals on cannons means he's committed to 1 base for somewhere upwards of 8-10 minutes, so use this time as best you can.

Now, when your roach warren pops IMMEDIATELY start building roaches. You're going to build 7 altogether, rallied outside your enemy ramp.

Mine just a hair more with the drones as the roaches start hatching, pump out another roach or two or some zerglings, and an overlord. You'll have enough minerals for another ling or two after you've begun the attack but no larva at the moment to build them. The 7th roach should hatch around 4:45-4:50. Give your drones just a few more seconds to mine, then grab them all and bring them along as well. [b]NOTE: If performing this strategy VS terran leave at LEAST 1-2 drones at home - it's possible he will kill all the attacking drones and while he may still technically die, he can fly his CC/buildings away and prolong the game indefinitely if you don't have any drones/cash left to tech to mutas.

So, to recap, you now have 1 queen, 7 roaches, and 16 drones headed to the enemy base - with perhaps another roach or two, or some zerglings following behind by a handful of seconds.

The queen will arrive at the enemy ramp around the same time your first 3 roaches do (around 5:15-5:20) - so send them forward and get the enemy to fire his forcefield (he almost always has one sentry at this point). The second he does that, the game is yours. Hold at the forcefield, bring up the rest of the roaches/drones, and rush in as soon as the forcefield dies, slaughting EVERYTHING.

If he has a full wall-off but no cannons (just stalkers and perhaps a sentry behind it) use your overlord to grant sight and snipe out one of the gateways from below the ramp with the roaches (out of range of the stalkers)

Your attack will begin en-force around 5:30, you'll have a transfuse ready to use on whichever roach he tries to focus down, and another transfuse not long after. Rush everything in and attack-move, with the drones providing front-line tank support for your roaches. The queen transfuse means you have the equivalent of 9 roaches attacking, and she's not a bad tank herself, although she is a bit slow. If he is rushing an immortal it will still be roughly 30 seconds away, so just go smack down the pylon powering his robo facility and laugh heartily. Kill the probes if he brings them forward, the pylons if he doesn't. Game over. Almost every time.

I've played a bunch of these now, and I don't think it's possible to stop it with anything except a HARD cannon wall/tech to phoenix/void rays, and if I scout that I simply switch to 2 base muta, pump some extra queens, and attempt to macro/tech up (not a perfect solution, but you've bought yourself several minutes of pure drone production to catch up).
Edited by Incinerate on 11/2/2010 8:30 AM PDT
Posts: 394
Diamond with 515points.

I don't think so.

Any all in is a BAD idea no matter how solid it may seem imo. A good plan always has a back up plan involved.
Posts: 240
800 is pretty terrible likewise, just as I am terrible too, which isn't the topic of the post.

Incinerate has already proven it works on above 1.4k diamonds through other posts. I don't agree that it is GUARENTEED to work, but he's obviously exaggerating and attracting readers to help them by the usage of the term "can't stop".
Edited by Liph on 10/26/2010 12:58 PM PDT
Posts: 138
There is a post on TLO where it talks about how the extractor trick is actually less efficient unless you 10 pool. So if you made this, and your other roach rush build, OL @ 9 you will be ahead by about 5-10 minerals.
Posts: 26
umm

lol are you seriously making a post about this to AID zerg players in winning? please ignore this thread as this is in no way how you should think when you are playing starcraft.
Posts: 1,119
There is a post on TLO where it talks about how the extractor trick is actually less efficient unless you 10 pool. So if you made this, and your other roach rush build, OL @ 9 you will be ahead by about 5-10 minerals.


You're ABSOLUTELY right mookie, you'd be ahead 5-10 minerals, and your 7th roach would hatch 12-15 seconds later.

In other words, you're delaying your whole attack by 15 seconds, to make 10 extra minerals.

Yeah, I'll take my attack happening 15 seconds earlier and getting there before an immortal is even half-built.
Posts: 1,147
But I look at your match history and it makes me cry.
Posts: 1,652
I dunno about this one. At 500-1000 sure it's gonna work out reasonably well, also in best of it's gonna be a fun little surprise, but in regular 1500+ matches it has one major flaw. It skips zerglings and as such they scout it well in advance. Any good protoss opponent is going to know the second your warren goes down in the timing it does, that a roach rush is on the way, by the time roaches even begin producing he's chrono'd out a spare stalker or sentry, and by the time this rush begins he's at minimum of 3-4 stalker/sentry, a zealot, and warpgate tech almost finished.


Denying the scout is an absolutely critical part of the roach rush, and even moreso if you're going to all-in it.
Posts: 1,119
800 is pretty terrible likewise, just as I am terrible too, which isn't the topic of the post.

Incinerate has already proven it works on above 1.4k diamonds through other posts. I don't agree that it is GUARENTEED to work, but he's obviously exaggerating and attracting readers to help them by the usage of the term "can't stop".


I've had exactly one toss stop it, on a particularly long distance rush map (agri valley), and even then he only won because I mis-micro'ed.

I ran in, saw he had a robo facility being chronoboosted. I saw this happy pylon and thought it was the only one powering the facility so I took it down under fire from a small spattering of sentries and probes. It turned out it -wasnt- the only pylon powering the robo (even he was surprised) and the immortal took charge vs my now significantly weakened force with probes/stalkers attacking.

Had I just a-moved my force straight through him, I'd have beaten him - just like I did with the toss who tried a similar strategy in one of those 3 replays I just posted. He got the immortal out too, but my drones rocked it :).
Posts: 1,119
You know, for any naysayers, I'm so confident in this strat that I'd take on any toss who thinks they can stop it :/. You build your typical defense/build, we'll pick a 2 player map like steps of war, I'll go all-in, you'll -know- it's coming, and I'll still win.

And if in fact you -can- beat me, we can show toss exactly what to do to stop this :).

Posts: 26
this is the exact opposite of how zerg is supposed to be played
Posts: 718
LOL i always get an immo against zerg and have beaten this a lot. even if i'm not in diamond, it still is easy to beat
Posts: 1,119
this is the exact opposite of how zerg is supposed to be played


It's a cheese rush, not a style of gameplay. It's extremely effective vs almost any toss on a low-mid rush distance map, period.

Now my normal 7 roach rush on the other hand, thats viable vs toss in normal gameplay and is not counter to zerg's abilities.

Posts: 25
Thats a terrible, terrible strat. L2Roach rush.
Posts: 1,119
Thats a terrible, terrible strat. L2Roach rush.


I know how to roach rush, my 7RR is -brutal- to toss.

This is even MORE brutal to toss. You trade the once-in-a-blue-moon loss for almost sure victory vs any toss.


LOL i always get an immo against zerg and have beaten this a lot. even if i'm not in diamond, it still is easy to beat


Look at the timing on this attack. Your immortal is still 30 seconds away from hitting the field. By the time he arrives (if he arrives) your forces are slaughtered and probes are getting destroyed. My drones/roaches/queen @@*! him at that point. Also, many toss put the robo facility on a single pylon - this is insta-guaranteed to be popped and then no immort ;).

Posts: 1,119
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=160848

There's a toss who tried something different to stop me, he proxy gated vs my roach build.

Thankfully, I was able to survive and he quit. Proxy gateway can be quite deadly vs this strat, as it hits during a critical moment where you are supply blocked and still awhile away from having a single roach.
Edited by Incinerate on 10/26/2010 1:48 PM PDT
Posts: 183
this guy might be full of **** but he also offered to play it against anyone who challenged him and you'd have the advantage of knowing what he's doing. So.. if anyone wants to argue with him I think you ought to play him before you have a leg to stand on
Posts: 1,230
Can't rely on proxy gating because if the protoss guesses wrong, its game over.

I despise opening robo vs zerg, I quite enjoy my phoenix harass. I wonder if its possible to get a fast void ray out instead in anticipation of this build and still manage to transition into xpo/templar tech afterwards.

.... screw it, I'll just order a crate of industrial sized RAID. (kills bugs dead)

Edit: and if you play him, I would NOT go with steppes of war. That would be like fighting on Char with only a small skirmish force. No.

A map like metalopolis, kulas ravine, lost temple, discord, etc. would be better.

Edited by Jeraggerjack on 10/26/2010 1:52 PM PDT
Posts: 4
Of all the replays I've seen of yours incinerate, no one has thrown up a forge and cannons behind the front. I realize this is a larger investment and if placed incorrectly might even be easier to get through but have you found a number of cannons that's just not practical to go head on at?

You mentioned earlier just to back off and tech to mutas off two bases if you see a cannon wall, but I was wondering if there is certain placement and/or a certain number of cannons that you would still engage and feel confident?
Posts: 1,119
Well, if it's 1 cannon and there's still an open hole into his base, I'll just ignore it and run in to kill him. If it's 3-4 cannons and a HARD solid wall, I'll just back up - he just wasted tons of minerals on doorway defense he'll -never- get to use.

In this strategy, you are getting ready to do an all-in. If his door is heavily photon cannoned off, you just shift gears and keep the queen at home, mass muta, win.

If my overlord saw a light cannon defense (1, but an open hole) I'd probably just follow through with my regular 7RR + fast expo instead of my all-in.
Edited by Incinerate on 10/26/2010 2:02 PM PDT
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