StarCraft® II

-THE- ALL-IN Roach Rush Toss... can stop :(

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Your "recent" 1v1 history:

Steppes of War 1v1 Win (+20) 10/26/2010
Blistering Sands 1v1 Loss (-11) 10/26/2010
Jungle Basin 1v1 Loss (-13) 10/26/2010
Xel'Naga Caverns 1v1 Win (+20) 10/26/2010
Steppes of War 1v1 Win (+28) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Win (+22) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Loss (-14) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Loss (-13) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Loss (-14) 10/26/2010
Steppes of War 1v1 Loss (-10) 10/26/2010
Jungle Basin 1v1 Loss (-11) 10/26/2010
Steppes of War 1v1 Loss (-10) 10/26/2010
Xel'Naga Caverns 1v1 Loss (-14) 10/26/2010
Delta Quadrant 1v1 Loss (-12)

4 wins - 9 losses.....

ya man, clearly "unbeatable!"


I've been following this whole fiasco from the beginning, and Incinerate said that those losses were from a different strat he was trying to do (he says it was the queen spine crawler rush, that he thought he might be able to make tighter and more viable, but it failed). This is still a very cool cheese, and we shouldn't be blowing it off like this. I think Zerg could use a cool cheese imo.
Your "recent" 1v1 history:

Steppes of War 1v1 Win (+20) 10/26/2010
Blistering Sands 1v1 Loss (-11) 10/26/2010
Jungle Basin 1v1 Loss (-13) 10/26/2010
Xel'Naga Caverns 1v1 Win (+20) 10/26/2010
Steppes of War 1v1 Win (+28) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Win (+22) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Loss (-14) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Loss (-13) 10/26/2010
Metalopolis 1v1 Loss (-14) 10/26/2010
Steppes of War 1v1 Loss (-10) 10/26/2010
Jungle Basin 1v1 Loss (-11) 10/26/2010
Steppes of War 1v1 Loss (-10) 10/26/2010
Xel'Naga Caverns 1v1 Loss (-14) 10/26/2010
Delta Quadrant 1v1 Loss (-12)

4 wins - 9 losses.....

ya man, clearly "unbeatable!"


Almost all of those losses are to non-protoss opponents, and I was attempting some pretty rediculous stuff (like an all-in vs zerg with 3 spine crawlers).

Do you seriously think every game I play is VS toss?
I finally ran into the first player who can -consistently- beat my 7RR all-in opener. And I mean beat it soundly. In fact, his strategy completely hard counters the 7RR buid altogether:

I played a -bunch- of games vs horst tonight just to really shake down this 7RR and ALL-IN 7RR the 7RR and see if there is a good strong potential counter strat.

The verdict?

The 7RR, and it's all-in variety, can be -completely- countered by a toss who plays a fairly specific counter build:

9 pylon (send probe to scout)
12 gate (build a zealot to block your 1-space-wide choke, and then a sentry)
14 assim
15 pylon
17 cyber core
21 forge in back of the base away from the wall
24 pylon

@ 4:40-4:45 gametime, warp in 2 cannons at the gate behind the gate/assim core to guard the ramp.

Now, at this point here's whats happened. As a zerg I've already committed to building all the roaches because a gateway/cyber core front-door basically signifies "I'm going to die easy to a 7RR", and at -this- moment, I realize that he has cannons and I will not be able to break his wall. As a zerg I am immediately forced to transition into a FE and macro game, and am at a huge disadvantage. Because he waits so long to drop the cannons, I dont have time to stop more than a couple of the roaches from being produced. If I attempt to push my attack anyway he can simply forcefield in between my 7 roaches on his ramp and absolutely tear me to shreds with the 2 cannons/sentry/zealot defense. It forces zerg to auto-lose his roaches, or to pull them back to base. If the Z was doing the all-in build, the queen is already halfway across the map and needs to walk home now, seriously delaying another larva spit.

Now the protoss build continues:

25 assimilator

26 starport (begin chrono boosted phoenix production immediately, and go shoot down any overlord hanging out near your gate - go scout your enemy, if you see he is going hard air you need another starport and to keep pumping phoenix - which obliterate zerg air - if you see he's going hydra continue the build)

30 gateway
31 pylon
35 pylon
39 robo facility
48 robo bay

Begin colossus production, and stalkers/zealots/sentries out of your two warpgates. Get the thermal lance upgrade.

48 expand.

At this point, it's basically game over. As zerg you took too big of an economy hit and wont be able to recover in time for the 12:30 timing push with two colossus, several phoenix, and a big group of hydra. If you -do- manage to stop that attack (you can, at a big cost), an even bigger timing attack is just getting built and you aren' far behind.

I tried everyting I could, his colossus were simply too strong.His build sneakily causes an overcomit and it's been pretty conclusively proven to me that the toss run over 7RR using this strat.

The phoenixes give toss instant map control, and he can snipe out anything not covered. He can expand at leisure and destroy you just as easily at either the 12:30 timing push or the slightly later 17 minute mark.

So there you have it, a toss can hard counter you if he's doing that sort of a build order. Horst claims thats his standard opening even against FE, and he claims it is very powerful. It certainly shuts down the 7RR 100%.
Edited by Incinerate on 10/27/2010 4:10 AM PDT
I finally ran into the first player who can -consistently- beat my 7RR all-in opener. And I mean beat it soundly. In fact, his strategy completely hard counters the 7RR buid altogether:

I played a -bunch- of games vs horst tonight just to really shake down this 7RR and ALL-IN 7RR the 7RR and see if there is a good strong potential counter strat.

The verdict?

The 7RR, and it's all-in variety, can be -completely- countered by a toss who plays a fairly specific counter build:

9 pylon (send probe to scout)
12 gate (build a zealot to block your 1-space-wide choke, and then a sentry)
14 assim
15 pylon
17 cyber core
21 forge in back of the base away from the wall
24 pylon

@ 4:40-4:45 gametime, warp in 2 cannons at the gate behind the gate/assim core to guard the ramp.

Now, at this point here's whats happened. As a zerg I've already committed to building all the roaches because a gateway/cyber core front-door basically signifies "I'm going to die easy to a 7RR", and at -this- moment, I realize that he has cannons and I will not be able to break his wall. As a zerg I am immediately forced to transition into a FE and macro game, and am at a huge disadvantage. He can simply forcefield in between my 7 roaches on his ramp and absolutely tear me to shreds with the 2 cannons/sentry/zealot defense. It forces zerg to auto-lose his roaches, or to pull them back to base. If the Z was doing the all-in build, the queen is already halfway across the map and needs to walk home now, seriously delaying another larva spit.

Now the protoss build continues:

25 assimilator

26 starport (begin chrono boosted phoenix production immediately, and go shoot down any overlord hanging out near your gate - go scout your enemy, if you see he is going hard air you need another starport and to keep pumping phoenix - which obliterate zerg air - if you see he's going hydra continue the build)

30 gateway
31 pylon
35 pylon
39 robo facility
48 robo bay

Begin colossus production, and stalkers/zealots/sentries out of your two warpgates. Get the thermal lance upgrade.

48 expand.

At this point, it's basically game over. As zerg you took too big of an economy hit and wont be able to recover in time for the 12:30 timing push with two colossus, several phoenix, and a big group of hydra. If you -do- manage to stop that attack (you can, at a big cost), an even bigger timing attack is just getting built and you aren' far behind.

I tried everyting I could, his colossus were simply too strong.His build sneakily causes an overcomit and it's been pretty conclusively proven to me that the toss run over 7RR using this strat.

The phoenixes give toss instant map control, and he can snipe out anything not covered. He can expand at leisure and destroy you just as easily at either the 12:30 timing push or the slightly later 17 minute mark.

So there you have it, a toss can hard counter you if he's doing that sort of a build order. Horst claims thats his standard opening even against FE, and he claims it is very powerful. It certainly shuts down the 7RR 100%.


This build is super specific, and would perform horribly vs most macro play. If we're playing with the assumption that I know ahead of time what I'm countering I can easily get out 3 sentries + 1 stalker long before the rush arrives and have a much more versatile opening still, but that isn't really the point of these trials. I highly doubt he opens this way normally or he's in bad shape most PvZ.
my forge went down only after I noticed he wasn't fast expanding, and had a roach warren going up.

my cannons were timed to go up just as his roaches were finishing, so he wouldn't be able to cancel them.

I almost always open phoenix vs zerg anyway, the only difference between my normal play and this is that I got a forge up fast w/ cannons.


Ah IC, ya as long as the forge only goes down as a direct response to the roach warren being scouted then I'd say it's solid, I thought you were making it preemptively.

To followup regarding the build order itself. I've done quite a bit of testing this evening when I had time and vs a traditional 7rr build (9 ov, 13 pool, 15 extractor) it's in bad shape if you aren't intending to all-in. 7th roach spawned only 6 seconds slower for me in a traditional 7rr build, and I also made 1 set of zerglings to deny scout, had 17 drones opposed to 16, scouted with my 15 drone, and still in the resource tab had 6 more resources per minute (x 5 minutes for 30 more minerals, and this gap would have only widened as it's 1 drone ahead).

I just don't think all that is worth a few seconds difference, I typically favor speed in this sort of build order but anything less than 10 seconds isn't going to make a huge difference unless it happens to break through a critical timing, which in this case it doesn't (traditional bo already hits before void or immortal can finish).

That said, IMO this build order is beneficial exclusively when going all-in and you have no intention of denying scouting, any other scenario and you're better off with a traditional 7rr (Which then I'd continue on to say you're always better off with a traditional 7rr, since it's always in your best interest to deny scouting when executing this sort of thing, I can't count the number of times I've caught my opponent expanding vs my 7rr because I feigned a 15 expo with my scout drone).
Edited by Rekatan on 10/27/2010 4:34 AM PDT

To followup regarding the build order itself. I've done quite a bit of testing this evening when I had time and vs a traditional 7rr build (9 ov, 13 pool, 15 extractor) it's in bad shape if you aren't intending to all-in. 7th roach spawned only 6 seconds slower for me in a traditional 7rr build, and I also made 1 set of zerglings to deny scout, had 17 drones opposed to 16, scouted with my 15 drone, and still in the resource tab had 6 more resources per minute (x 5 minutes for 30 more minerals, and this gap would have only widened as it's 1 drone ahead).

I just don't think all that is worth a few seconds difference, I typically favor speed in this sort of build order but anything less than 10 seconds isn't going to make a huge difference unless it happens to break through a critical timing, which in this case it doesn't (traditional bo already hits before void or immortal can finish).


If you test the two builds side by side (the 13 pool and the 11/10 pool RR) the difference at the end of 5:00 of gameplay is about 10 minerals, so you're buying about one second per mineral.

That said, this was a timing attack that had a VERY specific window of opportunity. I think all the testing I did with Horst this morning basically slammed that window of opportunity shut (provided the toss knows what he's doing and follows horst's build to the letter). If the toss plays right and I'm doing this all-in attack, my queen is WAY out of position and unable to help me macro up immediately, my roaches are completely useless, I don't have my expo started, and I'm about to get out smashed like a bug by colossus/stalker/sentry/zealot forces. It doesn't matter what variety of 7RR I do. If I go fast 7 roach rush vs Horst's strategy, I lose. Period.

Now, whether or not his fast phoenix build is viable vs a normal FE zerg build is debatable. Perhaps someone well versed in FE can test a few out vs horst and get back with us about it :).

Edited by Incinerate on 10/27/2010 4:42 AM PDT

To followup regarding the build order itself. I've done quite a bit of testing this evening when I had time and vs a traditional 7rr build (9 ov, 13 pool, 15 extractor) it's in bad shape if you aren't intending to all-in. 7th roach spawned only 6 seconds slower for me in a traditional 7rr build, and I also made 1 set of zerglings to deny scout, had 17 drones opposed to 16, scouted with my 15 drone, and still in the resource tab had 6 more resources per minute (x 5 minutes for 30 more minerals, and this gap would have only widened as it's 1 drone ahead).

I just don't think all that is worth a few seconds difference, I typically favor speed in this sort of build order but anything less than 10 seconds isn't going to make a huge difference unless it happens to break through a critical timing, which in this case it doesn't (traditional bo already hits before void or immortal can finish).


If you test the two builds side by side (the 13 pool and the 11/10 pool RR) the difference at the end of 5:00 of gameplay is about 10 minerals, so you're buying about one second per mineral.

That said, this was a timing attack that had a VERY specific window of opportunity. I think all the testing I did with Horst this morning basically slammed that window of opportunity shut (provided the toss knows what he's doing and follows horst's build to the letter). If the toss plays right and I'm doing this all-in attack, my queen is WAY out of position and unable to help me macro up immediately, my roaches are completely useless, I don't have my expo started, and I'm about to get out smashed like a bug by colossus/stalker/sentry/zealot forces. It doesn't matter what variety of 7RR I do. If I go fast 7 roach rush vs Horst's strategy, I lose. Period.

Now, whether or not his fast phoenix build is viable vs a normal FE zerg build is debatable. Perhaps someone well versed in FE can test a few out vs horst and get back with us about it :).


The difference is probably somewhere in your execution, as I got the build performing a few seconds faster than you, so probably an issue with your split or how quickly you're producing drones etc, either way I consistently got results that showed a difference of 25-40 minerals by 5 minutes.

At this point, it's basically game over. As zerg you took too big of an economy hit and wont be able to recover in time for the 12:30 timing push with two colossus, several phoenix, and a big group of hydra. If you -do- manage to stop that attack (you can, at a big cost), an even bigger timing attack is just getting built and you aren' far behind.
.


If you dont all-in 10 pool do you know how much ##** you can have at 12:30?....

A LOT!

His build doesnt counter your biuld.

His "strategy" can deal with all-in's. If you scout a 10 pool, you change your strategy.

Now you tell me whats going to stop him from seeing your 10 pool?


His strategy completely stops the 7RR, period. It kills the normal RR, AND the all-in RR.

He's got a handful of replays posted over in the protoss forum on this subject. If you follow the strategy he outlined, you will scout the 1 base roach play, be able to EASILY stop it at your door, and smash the enemy with superior economy and big mean colossus.

Admittedly, I wasnt playing to the best of my ability, and I'm pretty sure I could hold off his second timing push with a little practice (I managed to hold off the first one), but even if you hold it off chances are you're going to lose - he has a third expo coming online and you can barely leave your base.


The difference is probably somewhere in your execution, as I got the build performing a few seconds faster than you, so probably an issue with your split or how quickly you're producing drones etc, either way I consistently got results that showed a difference of 25-40 minerals by 5 minutes.


I actually attempted to eliminate differences in execution by saving a game right after the drone split, then using the same savegame to test both strategies.

In my tests, it was 10 min difference every time... I suppose it could have been execution during the build, go figure.
Edited by Incinerate on 10/27/2010 5:54 AM PDT
Seriously, are they trademarking build orders now? Not possible for two people to come up with similar, or even identical, build orders? To all the people complaining, if you don't like it, ignore it. So many petty jerks on this board.

Thanks for sharing, Incinerate.
I like the aspect this build has given me in game play. All the people that say L2P and You learn nothing from this start It teaches you nothing, i don't understand where your bases for such comments stem.... Your wrong simply put, For people at the lower teirs anything and everything adds to your game play. This start alone has added to my game play in countless ways. First It gets you use to fast micro being on top of timeing and build things as soon as you can type of thing. Controling your army and building teh same time you attack. These are all things I had never done or done well for that matter and having a plan like this and an idea to follow from start to finish has made me so much better as a player.
Now I agrea doing it every game will creat a crutch in a way and hinder your ability to advance in the ladder past a certian point but I'm not even close to that point so im not worried!
Speaking from a silver leaguer :-)

Phoenix does not own zerg air, you just fungal growth them and it's gg.
This is why I love SC2. Thanks for all the work Incinerate et al.
This is still a pwn strat, because no one seems to actually read these forums.

EDIT: last 8 wins from this strat (i'm in bronze due to tvz op at the release of this game, i belong in at least silver)
Edited by Eggy on 11/1/2010 5:54 PM PDT
Haha don't hate on a strat because it's cheese or all in. It's interesting and makes the unique. Just adapt to it. I'm sure it's not perfect (I won't be able to stop it) but it's quite a strong bo
I haven't read all of this but has anyone suggested a Force Field on the ramp to either split up the roaches or delay them?
eh im really not for all in builds. think of it this way. if any of you are striiving to be a great starcraft 2 player, this strat wwill not help you become a better player. learning to defend early pushes while getting a better economy going will get you a beter game long run and will teach you more about the game and you will as such skill up.

learning all in strats that are UNSTOPPLE will only cause a nerf to the race and WILL NOT make you a better starcraft 2 player.

i urge my fellow zerg to not employ this 7RR all in.

it will not make you better at the game in any way.

again, if all you want is to rank up the ladder, do this all in roach rush. if you want to learn more about SC2 and become a better well rounded player, this strat will not do that for you.
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