StarCraft® II

Why the illogical Kaldir Mission?

Posts: 2,557
First point of contention, Harvest of Screams:

On Kaldir, Protoss Starships and all other units and structures, armed with Plasma Shields and Plasma and anti-matter weapons, are frozen solid periodically by a Flash Freeze Storm.

The United States NASA Space Program has been designing space ships for decades which would perform better under the same conditions.

One such ship, the Huygens probe, landed on Titan and performed just fine under conditions below the freezing point of Methane, in the presence of Methane and Ethane rain and snow (flash freeze conditions).

Meanwhile, the James Webb Space telescope is designed to operate at temperatures of about 8 kelvin.

We (The present day U.S.) also have experimental Plasma Shield / Plasma Windows, which would easily prevent flash freeze conditions from having any effects whatsoever on a shielded unit (under the assumption that we figure out how to wrap a ship in them).

What is Blizzard's explanation of how a Flash Freeze would affect a Plasma Shielded starship or other unit in such a way, seeing as how that (freezing a plasma shielded anything,) contradicts the laws of physics?!

Point 2: Shoot the Messenger. Lore contradiction.

More stupidity, in total contradiction to the mobility lore and communications lore of the Protoss seen in Starcraft Vanilla and Broodwar.

There is no reason for the shuttles flying to warp conduits, since Gateways and Stargates are themselves warp conduits between Protoss worlds (according to the original game) and as such could easily just send a unit to Shakuras through the basic Gateway or Stargate structure.

Moreover, the mission contradicts itself in several ways, even if you disregard other portions of canon.

Why not just fly an observer through the portal, even if you did in fact need the portals? That would be much easier, and you could...warp in an observer from Shakuras (since that's where they come from,) Just so you could then send it back...

the Protoss on Shakuras would surely ask the questions.

"Why are we warping out so many carriers and void rays to Kaldir? Are they in need of assistance?"

Lol, the story behind that mission contradicts itself in so many ways your mind will reel just from trying to think about it.

Point 3, Enemy Within:

More contradictions. The Protoss Ship's onboard shield's between individual rooms are more powerful than it's tactical, external shields. After all, Queens can shoot down protoss Carriers in the previous two missions for God's sake, but Niadra, a Hero Queen, cannot shoot through the shields between individual rooms, a few meters wide, in the Enemy Within mission.

Again, the level designer is a complete moron.

Those are among the worst 3 sets of contradictions I've ever seen in a work of fiction. Not only are they in contradiction with other parts of the canon, each level in fact contradicts itself, even without reference to outside portions of the canon.

Horrible authorship. Just ridiculously horrible.

====

Back in the Saddle and the Kerrigan contradictions.

Point 1, Ubber telepath, no telepath...

In Starcraft Vanilla, Sarah Kerrigan could read the minds of protoss "several light years away" and know that they were coming to destroy a planet. She could also read the mind of Jim Raynor when they were first introduced, etc.

In Back in the Saddle, she must ask Raynor the question, "Where are the Umojans going?" As if she would not know. She's supposed to be the most powerful known telepath in the universe, yet she suddenly can't read the minds of basic Terran troops, when previously she could detect and read the minds of Protoss from some undisclosed distance of at least planetary scales and possibly light years.

Gabriel Tosh and Nova, both supposedly weaker telepaths, are later seen using a voodoo doll to attack Tychus from a distance of 6 light years.

Point 2: Ubber telekinetic, no telekinetic.

Kerrigan is a telekinetic and is seen dismantling and reassembing a machine (I dont know what) in a cinematic just moments before.

She is seen, with dialogue, destroying debris, and levitating and disabling enemy troops, and destroying a nuke-proof ultralisk and several Terran mech units with Kinetic Blast (with dialogue).

As a HUMAN, in a cinematic she is later seen catching Zeratul out of the air and throwing him back the opposite direction, contrary to his momentum...

But at the end of Back in the Saddle.....you guessed it...she can't simply pick Jim Raynor up and levitate him across the busted bridge....even though she performed vastly superior feats in both power and control throughout the mission and in subsequent missions a few hours or days later....

It's a joke how bad the authorship and planning for these 4 missions really was.

I couldn't possibly imagine publishing something like that and actually charging money for it.
Edited by Wade on 6/11/2013 1:21 AM PDT
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Posts: 122
Simple, the missions were there for the sake of having protoss in the campaign.
The protoss is almost next to non-existent in HoTS campaign, and Blizz needed to do something to put more protoss in. Sadly, their wasted efforts resulted in serveral crappy missions and 'meh' storyline.

EDIT: About "Enemy Within", the most advanced race in the entire universe couldn't put even a single security camera or observer in their ship, lol.
Edited by Seraph on 6/11/2013 1:58 AM PDT
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@Wade , very good arguments. All I can say is that I agree.
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The United States NASA Space Program has been designing space ships for decades which would perform better under the same conditions.

One such ship, the Huygens probe, landed on Titan and performed just fine under conditions below the freezing point of Methane, in the presence of Methane and Ethane rain and snow (flash freeze conditions).


actually, the planet itself is more than 50 kelvin below the freezing point of methane. I also dont see the point of designing a ship for pretty much impossible conditions.

Meanwhile, the James Webb Space telescope is designed to operate at temperatures of about 8 kelvin.


space telescopes are not exposed to a great deal of matter, they are exposed to almost nothing. They'd need a great deal of maintenance to maintain operation if they were, just so that you can keep visuals clear.

We (The present day U.S.) also have experimental Plasma Shield / Plasma Windows, which would easily prevent flash freeze conditions from having any effects whatsoever on a shielded unit (under the assumption that we figure out how to wrap a ship in them).

What is Blizzard's explanation of how a Flash Freeze would affect a Plasma Shielded starship or other unit in such a way, seeing as how that (freezing a plasma shielded anything,) contradicts the laws of physics?


your right, the sheilds should be destroyed under such conditions (or at least unusable), but that would make the mission too easy =)

More stupidity, in total contradiction to the mobility lore and communications lore of the Protoss seen in Starcraft Vanilla and Broodwar.

There is no reason for the shuttles flying to warp conduits, since Gateways and Stargates are themselves warp conduits between Protoss worlds (according to the original game) and as such could easily just send a unit to Shakuras through the basic Gateway or Stargate structure.

Moreover, the mission contradicts itself in several ways, even if you disregard other portions of canon.

Why not just fly an observer through the portal, even if you did in fact need the portals? That would be much easier, and you could...warp in an observer from Shakuras (since that's where they come from,) Just so you could then send it back...

the Protoss on Shakuras would surely ask the questions.

"Why are we warping out so many carriers and void rays to Kaldir? Are they in need of assistance?"

Lol, the story behind that mission contradicts itself in so many ways your mind will reel just from trying to think about it.


It is supposed to be too far. Although in the mission they might be warping in units (i think?) they arent supposed to have any reinforcements.

Those are among the worst 3 sets of contradictions I've ever seen in a work of fiction. Not only are they in contradiction with other parts of the canon, each level in fact contradicts itself, even without reference to outside portions of the canon.


huh? Really? The worst?

In Starcraft Vanilla, Sarah Kerrigan could read the minds of protoss "several light years away" and know that they were coming to destroy a planet.


The protoss were not several light years away, and kerrigan was also wrong about what the protoss did. They did not destroy the planet even though they had the means to do so.

But at the end of Back in the Saddle.....you guessed it...she can't simply pick Jim Raynor up and levitate him across the busted bridge....even though she performed vastly superior feats in both power and control throughout the mission and in subsequent missions a few hours or days later....


There is another thread on this, it would have endangered Raynor if she were to do this while the archangel was shooting at her.
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Posts: 105
Wade:

Gameplay mechanic isn't visual representation of lore. Once you have barrack which make you a marine for 30 seconds, you just can't make lore assumptions on that account.
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I never mentioned game play mechanics.

Barracks are irrelevant.

The lore I have issue with is the game's very dialogue, story mode content, and even rendered cinematics in all 3 Kaldir missions... especially the idiotic part bout a flash freeze totally immobilizing plasma shield starships with anti-matter technology.

Unfortunately, you can't very well disregard Izsha or Kerrigan's comments about the Protoss being frozen.

"The Protoss are frozen." - Izsha.

"The Protoss are frozen." - Kerrigan.

The lore behind the entire mission is about two aspects, in fact:

1, the Protoss being frozen by the flash freeze.

2, The Zerg collecting "essence" from Flash Freeze immune Ursadon Matriarchs.

DNA and other organic matter would break down in flash freeze conditions far, far earlier than any realistic plasma shield. In fact, you have to invent a metaphysical super power in order to explain how the Ursadons could survive in flash freeze conditions while the plasma shields could not. We know what happens to organic matter in flash freeze conditions, anyone who's ever seen or played around with Liquid Nitrogen knows; tissue disintegrates. Realistic plasma shields would be just fine under the same conditions, however. This is known by experiment.

It is supposed to be too far. Although in the mission they might be warping in units (i think?) they arent supposed to have any reinforcements.


1, According to the owner's manual Protoss History in Starcraft, the Protoss control at least 1/4th of what used to be Xel Naga space. The Xel Naga controlled the entire Galaxy, and it's implied in othe rparts of the lore from both Starcraft 1 and Broodwar, and from other parts of Wol and HotS, that the Xel Naga in fact controlled the entire universe.

The distance between this moon and the next closest Protoss world would most likely be a few light years. It is in the Koprulu Sector, after all.

2, They are warping in units non-stop.

3, In the "Mothership" short story available on this site, the Protoss activate the computer which wakes up Jura, and send him a message "we are lost," over many light years distance.

4, If the Protoss on Kaldir could nto contact Protoss elsewhere, then both the Zerg and the Terrans have better communications technology, based on other parts of the story.

This entire sequence of missions destroyed the authenticity of the lore.

I would request that Blizzard print a retraction, or else "Patch" the flash freeze of Protoss units out of the game, and remove all dialogue in which the Protoss are affected by the flash freeze. List it as a "game bug" so that the Lore will be fixed and preserved as it should be.

Otherwise, the Protoss just took a major hit.

IF the protoss cannot operate in Flash Freeze conditions, they just went from being one of the most powerful races in science fiction, to quite honestly being one of the weakest races in science fiction.
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06/11/2013 09:04 AMPosted by Wade
DNA and other organic matter would break down in flash freeze conditions far, far earlier than any realistic plasma shield. In fact, you have to invent a metaphysical super power in order to explain how the Ursadons could survive in flash freeze conditions while the plasma shields could not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_bear
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Posts: 2,557
Petry dish test =/= to flash freeze.

dna does in fact break down under extreme cold, over time.

Tardigrades are a millmeter long. Zerg organisms are mostly human sized to building sized. That's a big difference, and involves totally different physics in how the body of large animals behaves compared to something a millimeter in size.

Polar Bears and Penguins live at opposite poles on Earth, but the Earth's poles are nowhere near flash freeze conditions. They are definitely nowhere near conditions that could flash freeze the Plasma Shielded ships and buildings of an advanced, space-faring race.

We have permanently operating research stations in Antarctica, with about 1000 inhabitants give or take a few.

See how foolish the Kaldir mission really is?

We, normal humans today, are probably more advanced than the Protoss could possibly be, if they can't make a plasma shielded Nexus or starship that operates in flash freeze.
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Petry dish test =/= to flash freeze.


Flash freeze cannot get to temperatures below how cold the atmosphere is, so if the water bear can survive that temperature, it can survive in flash freeze conditions.

Tardigrades are a millmeter long. Zerg organisms are mostly human sized to building sized. That's a big difference, and involves totally different physics in how the body of large animals behaves compared to something a millimeter in size.


It still shows that organic matter can in fact survive that temperature. Many things zerg do does not make sense on a large scale, such as the rate that they grow and spread.

See how foolish the Kaldir mission really is?

We, normal humans today, are probably more advanced than the Protoss could possibly be, if they can't make a plasma shielded Nexus or starship that operates in flash freeze.


Humans today cannot do so either. I explained this in the earlier post. Also, the protoss did survive the conditions, it is just that they couldnt move, which is perfectly understandable. I'd like to see any human made device get anywhere close to moving in 2 kelven thick atmosphere environments (and space, although a low temperature, is too close to a vacuum to fill this role).

Like i said before, they could have taken out the plasma shields during flash freeze, but that would make the mission even easier than it already is. Come to think of it, they may even take the shields out, i would have to check.
Edited by Brathearon on 6/11/2013 10:15 AM PDT
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Posts: 105
4, If the Protoss on Kaldir could nto contact Protoss elsewhere, then both the Zerg and the Terrans have better communications technology, based on other parts of the story.


We destroyed their communication in first Kaldir mission so it makes sense they don't have communication in second mission.

I never mentioned game play mechanics.

Barracks are irrelevant.

The lore I have issue with is the game's very dialogue, story mode content, and even rendered cinematics in all 3 Kaldir missions... especially the idiotic part bout a flash freeze totally immobilizing plasma shield starships with anti-matter technology.

Unfortunately, you can't very well disregard Izsha or Kerrigan's comments about the Protoss being frozen.


They don't exactly elaborate what they mean by frozen. Lore wise it could mean they are all save inside buildings. Or it could mean that ice formed outside their protoss shields, like when you have light bulb in snow, it will melts the snow, but water freezes and creates ice copula in distance around light bulb. Protoss don't have to freeze to not be able to move or with problems. I don't think protoss bodies could survive multiple freezings.
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@Wade , don't try to use logic with this dude Brathearon ... my advice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_bear


Just for the sake of science

Dude , the fact that some beings can survive for a few minutes at such conditions doesn't make an argument for you in any way.

few minutes of resistance =/= a living , working , very active being functioning in those conditions

don't even respond to my post Brath ;
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@Wade , don't try to use logic with this dude Brathearon ... my advice.


Thank you Jesus Christ. Someone other then me has seen through Brathearon's shenanigans.
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Posts: 1,972
There is no reason for the shuttles flying to warp conduits, since Gateways and Stargates are themselves warp conduits between Protoss worlds (according to the original game) and as such could easily just send a unit to Shakuras through the basic Gateway or Stargate structure.


Did you possibly think that they have a starship filled with protoss and other ships?

More contradictions. The Protoss Ship's onboard shield's between individual rooms are more powerful than it's tactical, external shields. After all, Queens can shoot down protoss Carriers in the previous two missions for God's sake, but Niadra, a Hero Queen, cannot shoot through the shields between individual rooms, a few meters wide, in the Enemy Within mission.


I have to agree with you, but those were pretty much pointless rooms. Besides, the external shields of the ship and the internal ones were all powered by the same generator, and also they could be able to disintegrating shields, where if walk through it without some form of shields, it instakills you.

In Starcraft Vanilla, Sarah Kerrigan could read the minds of protoss "several light years away" and know that they were coming to destroy a planet. She could also read the mind of Jim Raynor when they were first introduced, etc.

In Back in the Saddle, she must ask Raynor the question, "Where are the Umojans going?" As if she would not know. She's supposed to be the most powerful known telepath in the universe, yet she suddenly can't read the minds of basic Terran troops, when previously she could detect and read the minds of Protoss from some undisclosed distance of at least planetary scales and possibly light years.

Gabriel Tosh and Nova, both supposedly weaker telepaths, are later seen using a voodoo doll to attack Tychus from a distance of 6 light years.


Kerrigan's psionics where greatly weakened during Back in the Saddle. She had enough psionic strength to perform some basic stuff, as well as control Zerg... But that was it (Until later missions and side objectives where her power increased). Tosh was thinking he was attacking Raynor, and his voodoo doll was amplifying his power, enabling him to do so, so as not to be counterattacked (Even though this backfired and Nova killed him).

Kerrigan is a telekinetic and is seen dismantling and reassembling a machine (I dont know what) in a cinematic just moments before.

She is seen, with dialogue, destroying debris, and levitating and disabling enemy troops, and destroying a nuke-proof ultralisk and several Terran mech units with Kinetic Blast (with dialogue).

As a HUMAN, in a cinematic she is later seen catching Zeratul out of the air and throwing him back the opposite direction, contrary to his momentum...

But at the end of Back in the Saddle.....you guessed it...she can't simply pick Jim Raynor up and levitate him across the busted bridge....even though she performed vastly superior feats in both power and control throughout the mission and in subsequent missions a few hours or days later....


Your first argument was that she was destroying various stuff with her psionic powers. That was something that added to the mission's feel of a tutorial and also for game purposes (If it was realistic, the Archangel, ultralisk, and even the siege tanks would've been near unstoppable, since there isn't much a bit of Psionic blasts, machine guns and 1 sniper rifle could've done).

By the "Going to Zerus" Cine, she has increased psionic ability. And finally, the risk was too great for her to just pick up Raynor and drop (Set down) him. If she attempted it, Raynor could've actually died from him falling out of Kerrigan's psionic grip or the Archangel shooting him in the air. Besides, Kerrigan might not have had psionic power strong enough to move people over a large gap. (Don't argue about up/down, she probobly could've done that)
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@Wade , don't try to use logic with this dude Brathearon ... my advice.


I was going to say don't be a Retloclive.. but then retloclive replied RIGHT below you, that was.. not surprising actually.

06/11/2013 11:51 AMPosted by HardCore
Dude , the fact that some beings can survive for a few minutes at such conditions doesn't make an argument for you in any way.


It does, it proves that it's possible.

don't even respond to my post Brath ;


You don't get to make demands like that.
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Posts: 1,924
It does, it proves that it's possible.


comparing a waterbear with very complex life forms is like comparing the plane made by the Wright brothers with a battle cruiser ..... if you don't understand such a simple logic mistake , there is nothing to talk about. Also surviving extreme conditions =/= living and functioning in extreme conditions.

You don't get to make demands like that.


I just did
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06/12/2013 12:21 PMPosted by xer
Kerrigan's psionics where greatly weakened during Back in the Saddle.


I wanted to respond to your post in a serious and respectful manner ... but after reading this (the part about Kerrigan's psionics)....
I can't believe you just said those things ... just ...

The girl is busting incredibly thick doors , killing groups of ghosts/marines/marauders without a sweat , taking on an ultralisk and the archangel basically on her own (and this is lore ,with dialogue,cutscenes and cinematics) .And you say she couldn't make one marine levitate for a few seconds ? On the hyperion we see her do that without a problem , with two marines and Valerian ... and for quite some time ....
Edited by HardCore on 6/13/2013 6:02 AM PDT
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Posts: 726
Again, the level designer is a complete moron.


Hey, don't blame the level designers for this. They just make the game maps, not the story. Plus, the point itself is somewhat invalid. Stafer's actually correct to bring up gameplay mechanics != lore, since the fact that queens can break through Carriers' external shields is just for the sake of giving Zerg early AA. Remember that Marines too can destroy a Battlecruiser in orbit with their rifles, which doesn't make sense either.

There are situations in which this "contradiction" occurs in the original Starcraft as well.

I agree with the rest of your post though.
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comparing a waterbear with very complex life forms is like comparing the plane made by the Wright brothers with a battle cruiser ..... if you don't understand such a simple logic mistake , there is nothing to talk about


The only logical mistake is comparing zerg to real life organisms.
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Posts: 3,693
06/13/2013 05:25 AMPosted by HardCore
It does, it proves that it's possible.


comparing a waterbear with very complex life forms is like comparing the plane made by the Wright brothers with a battle cruiser ..... if you don't understand such a simple logic mistake , there is nothing to talk about. Also surviving extreme conditions =/= living and functioning in extreme conditions.

You don't get to make demands like that.


I just did


#1 But it doesn't matter it still happened, it's close enough to be "plausible" as opposed to your illogical "plane" = "Battleship" You weren't even on a similar type of tech.

#2 that's too bad., because he'll respond anyway, your pointless reply fell on deaf ears.
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Posts: 1,924
@StratosTygo , you believe what you want , I'm not gonna even try to explain why/how wrong your logic (or lack of it is) because as you said ,,it's pointless to reply when your reply falls on deaf ears''. So consider the theory that ''the moon is made of cheese'' ''plausible'' for all I care.

06/13/2013 04:52 PMPosted by StratosTygo
#2 that's too bad., because he'll respond anyway, your pointless reply fell on deaf ears.


He already read my request days ago and he had the good will to do what I asked ...
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