zerg is gonna get stale soon

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getting a lil irritated that every patch since hots beta practically ignores zerg. I feel like we are all still playin WoL while everyone is enjoys hots. roach/hydra and ling bling muta are all strats that have been around for ages. Swarm hosts get some playtime I guess but they aren't redefining anything the way some of the other units are.
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It gets a lot more dynamic once you get into higher level play. Not speaking from experience, but from watching master Zerg streams. They take cheese and tactics to a whole new level.
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yea I was busting my way thru diamond last season, but for whatever reason I got knocked back to gold this season. Getting a good chance to brush up on my cheese defense I guess
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Meh. Don't worry about it so much. There's PLENTY to learn in this race, even if it doesn't change for the next 2 years. Lot of depth here. Lot of room for improvement to your play. Very high skill ceiling, overall.

Don't worry about the gold thing either, imo. I got busted back to plat this season, and all its done is put me on a HUGE winning streak. I'll get back up there. I'm sure you will too.
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I hear ya once I have time to play more. but still it feels like zergs completely the same. we just might have a few more vipers instead of infestors late game in some match ups. Mech is so rare that you don't really see swarm hosts or vipers much in zvt. ZvZ is still mostly made out of the same old comps as before. ZvP is probably the most diverse of the zerg match ups.

Feels like I have all these amazing new threats to defend against all game long but very few new things I can do to my opponent.
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yea I was busting my way thru diamond last season, but for whatever reason I got knocked back to gold this season. Getting a good chance to brush up on my cheese defense I guess

That has happened to quite a few people, as they changed something about how the leagues work.

Mech is so rare that you don't really see swarm hosts or vipers much in zvt. ZvZ is still mostly made out of the same old comps as before. ZvP is probably the most diverse of the zerg match ups.

In my experience I've seen the most diversity in ZvZ. Almost every unit comes in to play, depending in the individual match.
In ZvT I almost always use Swarm Hosts, though it is often after I've built up a few Ultralisks and the Terran has more Marauders or Widow Mines.
ZvP has me totally lost and I basically expect to lose every single match. I don't know why but I can't figure it out.
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06/14/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
ZvP has me totally lost and I basically expect to lose every single match. I don't know why but I can't figure it out.


Heavy starter macro into roach/hydra into mutalisk harass + pushing isn't working for you?
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Heavy starter macro into roach/hydra into mutalisk harass + pushing isn't working for you?

I don't usually use Roaches nor Hydras, and I hate Mutalisks and only use them because Voidrays can go wherever they please if I don't, otherwise I also rarely use those.
Edited by Fawxkitteh on 6/14/2013 5:23 PM PDT
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06/14/2013 02:38 PMPosted by FunkySwerve
They take cheese and tactics to a whole new level.


I beg to differ. My latest loss was to this ridiculous thor-with-a-million-SCVs-to-repair-it rush.

My overlord scouted his base at the usual time. All he had was SCVs, command center, a feeble wall off, and armory. Immediately I knew something was wrong. But unfortunately it was too late. Shortly thereafter, a thor with like 15 SCVs to repair it showed up in my natural. Lings took it down eventually, but he had another on the way, more SCVs, marines.. etc. I was spamming lings(warren was nowhere near complete at this point) but couldn't kill it all fast enough. He was rewarded with a win for this asinine crap, and I was rewarded with 2+ days of being pissed off.

I'm not bitter. But to me, cheese says, "I don't want to play StarCraft. I want to pad my stats with cheap, un-earned 'victories'."
Edited by Meneliki on 6/14/2013 5:28 PM PDT
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06/14/2013 02:38 PMPosted by FunkySwerve
It gets a lot more dynamic once you get into higher level play. Not speaking from experience, but from watching master Zerg streams. They take cheese and tactics to a whole new level.


Yes I can speak from experience and by that I mean having held #1 rank diamond for the past couple of seasons diamond is where you start to see execution of builds become more prevalent.

Kinda peeved I got kicked down to Plat this season, went on a couple of bad loosing streaks due to cheese and BS timing stuff last season and I guess my MMR tanked. Shame because I was rank #1 and was facing masters pretty regularly then all of the sudden I just got like 15 games or so where I was getting 6 pooled, proxy gateway, 2 rax etc. Nearly all of those games were on Klontas Mire...

Also I do not know how to deal with late game Protoss at all...

06/14/2013 05:27 PMPosted by Meneliki
I'm not bitter. But to me, cheese says, "I don't want to play StarCraft. I want to pad my stats with cheap, un-earned 'victories'."


I can't help being bitter, if you face me on ladder don't be surprised if I BM you because you did some cheese or BS timing attack.

When I get cheesed, I don't imagine my opponent is a 20 yr old mature RTS player, I imagine there's some 8 year old in his pajamas thinking to himself "Wow! I'm really good at this game!" Cheese is for children who don't know how to get into a lengthier complex game.
Edited by Tomsonx on 6/14/2013 5:33 PM PDT
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06/14/2013 05:29 PMPosted by Tomsonx
Also I do not know how to deal with late game Protoss at all...


You and I have the opposite problem. I'm more confident in my mid-late game macro but it's these early-game shenanigans that kill me every time. Early reapers? Own me. Early hellions? Own me. Some-weird-cheese-build-that-some-half-retarded-kid-found-on-teamliquid.net-and-regurgitated-vs-me-for-a-free-win ? Owns me.
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06/14/2013 05:21 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
Heavy starter macro into roach/hydra into mutalisk harass + pushing isn't working for you?

I don't usually use Roaches nor Hydras, and I hate Mutalisks and only use them because Voidrays can go wherever they please if I don't, otherwise I also rarely use those.


That leaves you with... ling/bane/corrupter into... ling/bane/ultra/corrupter? That sounds like it would be terrible against protoss.

I think you should try roach/hydra with a muta pivot ready. Hell, even pure roach.
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That leaves you with... ling/bane/corrupter into... ling/bane/ultra/corrupter? That sounds like it would be terrible against protoss.

Ling/Queen/SH into Vipers or Ultras, but without setting up some good static defense nearby to keep them contained, or having enough ling/bane that you can deny the third it is difficult.
I refuse to be pigeon-holed into using specific units and I will do whatever it takes to play my way.

Kinda peeved I got kicked down to Plat this season

Most people were demoted. I went from Diamond to Gold. Granted my ZvP was at like 15%, but I was doing fine in the other two match-ups.. Platinum maybe, but it seems like lots of people were dropped.
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Ling/Queen/SH into Vipers or Ultras, but without setting up some good static defense nearby to keep them contained, or having enough ling/bane that you can deny the third it is difficult.
I refuse to be pigeon-holed into using specific units and I will do whatever it takes to play my way.


No offense, but... that's a really juvenile way to approach any sport. Any conflict, really.

I understand that there's a certain stigma associated with blindly following the pack for some people (and that's actually a good thing in many cases), but an important part of improving yourself in any area is abandoning ways you WANT to do something and searching for the BEST way to do something.

You say you refused to be pigeon-holed into a specific path, and will do whatever it takes to be different... but I say that's just silly pride. You convince yourself that you're resisting outside control to go your own way by avoiding the common path, but in reality, your decision to avoid the common path because it is the common path allows outside control to dictate your decisions just as certainly as if you blindly followed the crowd. The only difference is that you finish with a sub-optimal composition as a result of being forced to avoid the optimal composition for the sake of your pride.

I strongly suggest you look for a better composition than ling/bane/queen against Protoss. If you arrive at a common composition, so be it. By avoiding the common compositions, you only weaken yourself.
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how do you work swarm host into zvt against a bio comp? they just steam roll it from what I have seen
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You say you refused to be pigeon-holed into a specific path, and will do whatever it takes to be different

I did not say that.
I said I do whatever it takes to do it my way.
I do use those other units, just not currently my go to options.

If my way reaches the conclusion that 15 hatch, 15 pool is the opening I want to do, then that's what I'll do.
Part of me deciding does take into account what masters level players on this forum say. But everyone has their own style, so while one high level player may say a certain build, unit, or composition sucks, another might say it feels almost OP, and the reason is their differing experiences. Unless I try different things I will have limited experiences.

Mutas in ZvZ is a great example.
I never did it. I attempted to work with Queen/Infestor instead. Upon seeing Rekatan use Zerglings to mostly keep the Mutalisks busy, and a patch of three or so Spore Crawlers to create a zone the Mutalisks would not want to enter, I adapted that to my way of playing.
Just because I want to do it my way, doesn't mean I won't learn from other people doing it a similar way.
Now that Spores have been buffed against Mutalisks it is even easier.

I don't like blindly following, because people do what gets the easy wins rather than what makes them think and improve their play. I want to win, but I also want to have fun, and challenge myself. Of course I do get frustrated in some situations, many that are my fault. I prefer it this way though.

how do you work swarm host into zvt against a bio comp? they just steam roll it from what I have seen

In the late game. You only need so many Ultralisks, and since SH are faster than Broodlords and have much longer range.
Earlier than that maybe a few, but you'd want Infestors more vs bio right? Infestors keep the enemy back while you do slight pressure, or relieve you from pressure a bit.
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Everything you say is all well and good, but if your ZvP is really at 15% when it's typically a Zerg's strongest matchup, I think 'your way' is holding you back.

I also think you're lying to yourself. You clearly said:

06/14/2013 05:21 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
I don't usually use Roaches nor Hydras, and I hate Mutalisks and only use them because Voidrays can go wherever they please if I don't, otherwise I also rarely use those.


and

06/14/2013 06:02 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
I refuse to be pigeon-holed into using specific units and I will do whatever it takes to play my way.


and

06/15/2013 01:01 AMPosted by Fawxkitteh
Unless I try different things I will have limited experiences.


Considering that the strongest units vs Protoss are generally roach, hydra, and muta, and you refuse to use them, I must conclude that you are avoiding them. If you had truly evaluated them versus Protoss, you would be using them, at the very least against sentry-heavy compositions, which destroy ling/bane. Performance evaluation is a reproducible process, and if we both perform one from an objective viewpoint, we will inevitably arrive at the same (or at least a very similar) conclusion. That's why, to me, your third statement looks like a blind defensive gesture rather than a report of something you've really done.

To put it another way, if you had tried a roach/hydra composition, you could hardly fail to find it more effective than ling/bling/queen with spine crawler contains (which you admitted is performing at 15%), and would have (if objectively appraised) concluded that roach/hydra was simply better in many cases. This, in combination with your previous statements, leads me to believe that at some point along the way you decided to use a specific composition, and then convinced yourself that you were trying others so you could avoid admitting to yourself that you'd picked a bad composition, when in fact you've never given other compositions a serious effort.

Now... I'll be gone all weekend, and when I come back I doubt I'll care to reply to this again... but for your sake, I honestly hope you revisit the reasons you chose a significantly sub-optimal(15% win rate) composition to use versus Protoss from an objective viewpoint, free of the desire to pick a composition that is uncommon simply for the sake of being different.

Good luck.
Edited by Ataraxia on 6/15/2013 4:29 AM PDT
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http://www.gomtv.net/2013gstls1/vod/80431

Zerg can be as fun and wacky as you want =)
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Posts: 12,515
Everything you say is all well and good, but if your ZvP is really at 15% when it's typically a Zerg's strongest matchup, I think 'your way' is holding you back.

It was last season.
The one before that it was 60-somthing percent.

To put it another way, if you had tried a roach/hydra composition, you could hardly fail to find it more effective than ling/bling/queen with spine crawler contains (which you admitted is performing at 15%)

15% because I have yet to learn how to properly react with what I am trying to do. I am not getting contains. I am doing it wrong or people have learned how to deal with the SH better, or I macro incorrectly. It is not the composition directly, though maybe indirectly. All I can do is keep trying to read ZvP as well as I have ZvZ and ZvT. Though maybe its just that the other Zerg and Terran players are predictable.
Edited by Fawxkitteh on 6/15/2013 3:20 PM PDT
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