StarCraft® II

On Nerfing The Hellbat...

-What is the problem with hellbats drops?

The problem with hellbat drops is not that they are overpowered in any particular non-mirror match-up. In fact, they can be shut down pretty easily if scouted by the zerg or protoss opponet.
In TvT however, they can utterly dominate if not prepared for (or even so), and that is the problem. The Hellbat Drop strategy is becoming so efficient in TvT that it is becoming the goto strategy for many prolevel gamers and is supposedly creating a stale meta-game within that MU which is bad for the sport and viewership.

-Why it shouldn't be nerfed

The Terran race by design is built to do early damage. Terran has a variety of options to go for in order to harass the opponet and kill workers, hellbat drops being one of them. If you are unprepared for the drops, they can devistate the mineral line causing huge economic damage. But you cannot at the same time say that the strategy is overpowered whilst not being prepared for it. This is a lot like saying," my MMM ball got destroyed by 4 colosis. Colosis OP." when you have zero vikings. It's just all about scouting and preparation.
Nerfing the hellbat could have serious consequences in the early game for those who play mech in nonmirror match-ups. it could make the hellbat simply too weak to hold off early all ins and just break the mech play-style for good in HOTS(since it is already pretty weak). So not only will the mech playstyle be endangered, but you will also eliminate another strategy for terran in order to do economic damage.

-How to fix it with a buff, not a nerf

When going for Hellbat Drops there is a huge weakness, no AA. What blizzard needs to do is buff the banshee. Buffing the banshee would take care of the hellbat strategy in TvT while still leaving the HBD viable and not making mech even weaker early-game.Blizzard says the want more exciting games, and seeing HBD every single game certainly is not that fun to watch, but it is a strategy that should still be viable within the Terran arsenal. Just buff the banshee and then let the meta evolve from there. Now that the other races have earlier detection this should be a problem if scouted.
And the banshee could use some loving anyways <3
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06/17/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Human
What blizzard needs to do is buff the banshee.


What blows my mind is how you could have read that hellbats were being nerfed without reading the banshee buff that was literally right under it.
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06/17/2013 12:15 PMPosted by WorstMicroNA
What blows my mind is how you could have read that hellbats were being nerfed without reading the banshee buff that was literally right under it.


Yes I am aware of that.. The main point I was making was to just buff the banshee while not nerfing the hellbat also. the meta will shift and the hellbat drops could still be done thus adding more strategies to the game
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the thing is how early hellbats can be available that if the opponent isnt already on the same tech path they will not even have enough to deal with it

its basically become cheese for TvT, too easy to do, low risk but high reward, having units doesnt mean you can stop them from killing workers either... as terran we replace workers slowly so its very easy to also follow up with a push after killing off the workers

tbh, hellbats are a unit that is too good for what they start out with, all other early harass options are easier to deflect or cost more... 2 hellbats and a medivac only cost 300/100... a banshee and cloak cost 350/300, and a medivac full of marines is 500/100, these numbers matter because it also means less to loose if it fails and more to spend on actual army

late game, 150/150 is cheap and also gets you blue flame which also means Servos will also be valuable after you get the upgrade

sorry but thats like saying you wont get stim for your bio because it costs more than zero... dont be like zerg lol

06/17/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Human
The Terran race by design is built to do early damage.


no, terran isnt

do not confuse terrans ability to harass with their ability to do damage... killing workers is one thing, knocking down the natural or 3rd is damage... atm i dont feel terrans can do 1 base all ins anymore, protoss can deflect them too easy, and zerg can as well if they have enough warning

terran is the slowest race to be able to get production going and most players are aiming to FE which means we play a defensive game in other matchups, like we can make small pokes with units like reapers

we dont have ways to nullify the defenders advantage like protoss can (warp ins) or rush across the map with ease (ling/roach/bane attacks)... even with the medivac its still slower than what the other races have available

we dont even have any real map control until about 10mins in if you are playing bio, and hellions quickly loose their map control as the game goes unless you actually maintain their numbers to be threatening
Edited by Oldben on 6/17/2013 2:07 PM PDT
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The real problem I have with this nerf is that it forces you to make a tech lab for a factory thus cutting down your factory unit production in half for that specific factory. So whether you are making Hellbats, widow mines or tanks, it' s going to reduce the number of mech units being made for the mid game when you can't afford that many factories.
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Assumptions:
*24 workers on minerals means 816 mins/minute
*6 on gas means 228 gas minute
You lose no units or workers.
The 2 hellbats and medivac die

The total cost of the drop is 300/100 (don't count the cost of the structures, we know they're still going to use them to spam hellbats and widowmines, unlike a proxy oracle or something).

**If they delay all mining for 22 seconds they broke even in minerals. (Short 16 gas)
***If they delay all mining for 26 seconds they broke even in gas. (Ahead 54 minerals)

*From: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mining_Minerals
** Math: (300 minerals) / (816 minerals/minute) x (60 seconds/minute) = 22.06 seconds
(100 gas) - (22 seconds) / (60 seconds/minute) x (228 gas/minute) = 16.4 gas
***Math: (100 gas) / (228 gas/minute) x (60 seconds/minute) = 26.32 seconds
(300 minerals) - (26 seconds) / (60 seconds/minute) x (816 minerals/minute) = 53.6 minerals
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Put blue flame option on armory and nerf the damage to 18 +4. This makes hellbats still viable against Zerg and Protoss, and would become much weaker against Terran. Putting Blue flame on the armory would keep BioBat viable for people that want to use it against Protoss or Zerg with Marine Marauder.
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06/17/2013 01:58 PMPosted by Oldben
do not confuse terrans ability to harass with their ability to do damage..


in this context... (damage=ability to harass)
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Banshee buff is superficial at best anyway; the problem with Banshees isn't that cloak is too expensive, it's that banshees themselves are largely useless without it. They're flimsy units that die very quickly in the open. Maybe if they did a small bit of splash damage or had a chance to evade incoming attacks while cloaked (which I think was a wraith buff in WoL campaign?) they might be OK.

Our air units in general just feel underwhelming. BCs aren't the monsters they were in BW at all, Ravens are good but totally unusable in TvP, and Vikings are decent but given the choice I'd rather have Valkyrie or even Wraiths.
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06/17/2013 09:46 PMPosted by Malacite
Our air units in general just feel underwhelming. BCs aren't the monsters they were in BW at all, Ravens are good but totally unusable in TvP, and Vikings are decent but given the choice I'd rather have Valkyrie or even Wraiths.


totally agree
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Stop letting medivacs heal hellbats.

Maybe turn speedvacs into an upgrade.

And -5 dmg to hellbats vs light and make them benefit from Blue flame.
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The main issue is that Hellbats can do damage while ignoring static defenses. I can have a cannon or turret or spore/spine, but a hellbat can still ignore it and get a lot of worker kills. No other harass is like that.

In addition you cannot run workers from a hellbat drop. Medivacs can easily lift the hellbats and boost over to the fleeing workers. A Hellbat drop is a drop which you can take damage from even if scouted.

If I may ask, what are these easy ways to deal with hellbat drops as Zerg or Protoss?
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i run my workers from hellbats with ease becuz i kill the medivac with turrets or vikings... drops are not the problem

in tvt the only problem i have is when i try doing early pushes and they have hellbats and medivacs to defend with

stopping the drops is no issue when u know they are coming
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The reason they nerfed hellbat drops. . is because you can SUICIDE the dropship for 4 units to kill mineral lines. .

not to mention a hellbat is TANKIER than a hellion. .

thus requiring more "pull back" to stop the drop
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I'm still not seeing how Hellbat drops over mineral lines are that big a deal. It takes 2 medivacs now to do a full drop and it's pretty much on par with the Oracle now - either you catch it in time and react, or lose workers in the blink of an eye.

the real "problem" I think comes from that nasty drop during the WSC where I believe it was MKP (or was it MMA? someone correct me on that) in a TvT and he flew his hellbats over a whole army of marines and just melted them (in conjunction with forcing friendly fire from the other guy's tanks).

So for like the million time now, I reiterate - a Korean Terran pulls off an amazing stunt during a major tournament and suddenly Blizzard has to nerf Terran. Meanwhile at the last GSL you had like 8 zergs, 1 terran and 2 or 3 protoss players but that was "working as intended" ...
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So for like the million time now, I reiterate - a Korean Terran pulls off an amazing stunt during a major tournament and suddenly Blizzard has to nerf Terran. Meanwhile at the last GSL you had like 8 zergs, 1 terran and 2 or 3 protoss players but that was "working as intended" ...


+1
this forum needs more people like you, sir.
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-How to fix it with a buff, not a nerf

When going for Hellbat Drops there is a huge weakness, no AA. What blizzard needs to do is buff the banshee. Buffing the banshee would take care of the hellbat strategy in TvT while still leaving the HBD viable and not making mech even weaker early-game.Blizzard says the want more exciting games, and seeing HBD every single game certainly is not that fun to watch, but it is a strategy that should still be viable within the Terran arsenal. Just buff the banshee and then let the meta evolve from there. Now that the other races have earlier detection this should be a problem if scouted.
And the banshee could use some loving anyways <3


Cleaver!

If terrans someday need a devil's advocate you are the first in which I would think to apply. :)

06/22/2013 05:01 AMPosted by TaylorSwift
awww honey boo boos are upset.........Its ok..........dady blizzard will make sure you keep winning!!


Butthurt why blizzard just ignore QQers?
Edited by Gambler on 6/22/2013 10:29 PM PDT
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Blizzard said they made the units so we get more exciting games.

So we get stuff like Faster muta, medivac, warp prism.
More units that break sieges with viper and tempest.
More risk / big reward units like widowmines, oracle, hellbats.

So in turn, are the games more exciting?
NO! The game just got more bull!@#$.

This inst like WoL scv all in where things will be fixed simply or players will figure out how to counter while macroing safe.

ALSO THIS IS KILLING THE CASUAL GAMES. Everygames now just ends before 20min mark...

I play terran, I dont even feel like i am doing anyting else then DROP DROP DROP DROP vs all race in all situations. If I do anything else I just lose. zzzz
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