StarCraft® II

Ventral Sacs at Lair for our ovies :)

Posts: 497
If this was automatic at lair tech I think everyone wouldn't complain as much about zerg being underpowered etc. It isn't op since to be efficient you still need carapace. And it would balance out drop play vs the other races. Since toss/terran can do consistent drops at around 7 minutes (unless rushed) the lair tech would be just behind or right around that time. This opens up a lot of early harass strategies for zerg before mutas/instead of mutas, and will cost a lot less. From drop play for zerg going from 400 min/300 gas to 200 min 100 gas and the smaller capacity of overlords I don't see balance issues. I just thought this would be cool as zerg. Lemme know what you think :)
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Posts: 11,110
Since toss/terran can do consistent drops at around 7 minutes (unless rushed) the lair tech would be just behind or right around that time.

But you have to take into account the build time of Protoss/Terran dropships.
They can get out one or two transports, but Zerg will be capable of dropping an entire army with a dozen Overlords.

I'd rather see creep generation after Overlord speed.
This would allow us to start static defense at a third, and make creep highways so our units can be faster in designated areas without 3+ speed upgrades. With increased usefulness of Overlord speed, drops would become more common.
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Posts: 75
Similar to what the other guy said, Ventral Sacs adds some fairness to drop play because we build overlords for supply, however other races build dropships specifically for that purpose. Other than the fact that Terran builds Medivacs for healing, we would be the only race with heaps of dropships just spread about the map ready to use at any point in time. Doesn't really seem fair. Would be pretty cool though ;)
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Posts: 622
Zerg is the most played race, doing fine at the top levels, and the only race that lets foreigners be competitive against Koreans AKA EASIEST. DH Stockholm had like 62 Zerg players out of 128...

Zerg also won like the last 5 GSL, what do you want. God damn dude.


thats like saying zerg = ants. terran/toss = scorpions. justifying that ants are fine because they outnumber the scorpions. what kind of stupid logic is that?

----

putting the sack upgrade aside.. it is true that zerg has more 'required' upgrades compared to terran or toss. lets put it this way...

zerglings are basically useless unless they have boost.
roaches are mostly useless (unless really early in game) unless they have speed.
hydras are useless without either or both upgrades.
infestors are vulnerable to timing without energy upgrade.

zealot works just fine without charge even late game.
stalkers work just fine without blink even late game.
sentries have their hallucination removed. before then, they worked just fine without.
phoenix works just fine without range upgrade.
-colossus is the only unit that requires an upgrade to be effective.

*stim is cheap, and can be acquired super early. combat shield is the same.
concussive shell isnt required for marauders to be effective, its only needed to counter speed roaches.
siege mode is removed, but yes, it was required.
blue flame isnt required.
the new medivac upgrade.. no one ever gets. so its not required.

comparing core units.. zerg is pretty much useless unless upgrades for those specific units are researched. in order for zerg to drop, zerg has to research two upgrades. while terran and toss can use them right out of the factory line (to a much greater efficiency).
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Posts: 2,808
Zerg is the most played race, doing fine at the top levels, and the only race that lets foreigners be competitive against Koreans AKA EASIEST. DH Stockholm had like 62 Zerg players out of 128...

Zerg also won like the last 5 GSL, what do you want. God damn dude.


thats like saying zerg = ants. terran/toss = scorpions. justifying that ants are fine because they outnumber the scorpions. what kind of stupid logic is that?

----

putting the sack upgrade aside.. it is true that zerg has more 'required' upgrades compared to terran or toss. lets put it this way...

zerglings are basically useless unless they have boost.
roaches are mostly useless (unless really early in game) unless they have speed.
hydras are useless without either or both upgrades.
infestors are vulnerable to timing without energy upgrade.

zealot works just fine without charge even late game.
stalkers work just fine without blink even late game.
sentries have their hallucination removed. before then, they worked just fine without.
phoenix works just fine without range upgrade.
-colossus is the only unit that requires an upgrade to be effective.

*stim is cheap, and can be acquired super early. combat shield is the same.
concussive shell isnt required for marauders to be effective, its only needed to counter speed roaches.
siege mode is removed, but yes, it was required.
blue flame isnt required.
the new medivac upgrade.. no one ever gets. so its not required.

comparing core units.. zerg is pretty much useless unless upgrades for those specific units are researched. in order for zerg to drop, zerg has to research two upgrades. while terran and toss can use them right out of the factory line (to a much greater efficiency).


1. Storm requires an upgrade to use.
2. Really? Stalkers and Zealots are fine in the late game without their respective upgrades? Biased much?

Comparisons like this are silly in the end anyways. Yes we probably pay more for upgrades but, Terran and Toss generally have higher infrastructure costs than us. It all balances out pretty damn well in the end.
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Posts: 85
everyone plays zerg cause it's awesome, not cause its "OP"
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Posts: 16,098
Zerg is the most played race, doing fine at the top levels, and the only race that lets foreigners be competitive against Koreans AKA EASIEST. DH Stockholm had like 62 Zerg players out of 128...

Zerg also won like the last 5 GSL, what do you want. God damn dude.


1 doesnt mean its overpowered
2 is true although you provide no evidence
3 is a load of crap
4 zerg had way more eliminated, it was almost even by the time you got to ro16, funny how you forgot that part...
It's only won 1 gsl in HotS, different game is different.
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Posts: 1,698
06/19/2013 05:29 AMPosted by Concretefist
thats like saying zerg = ants. terran/toss = scorpions. justifying that ants are fine because they outnumber the scorpions. what kind of stupid logic is that?

It's the most played race for a reason.

zerglings are basically useless unless they have boost.

Yeah, and Marines need Stim and Combat Shield.

roaches are mostly useless (unless really early in game) unless they have speed.

Except no. It's an upgrade that you can hold off or not get at all if it isn't part of your main comp., just like Concussive Shells.

hydras are useless without either or both upgrades.

This one is true, assuming you're going Hydras I guess.

infestors are vulnerable to timing without energy upgrade.

Ghosts have to get the Moebius upgrade, mostly TvP.

The entirety of your post is stupid, because no one goes ling, roach, hydra, infestor. You call Stim cheap and able to get super early, except it's the exact same cost as ling speed, but takes longer. Have you ever looked at the production tab in a TvZ? T ALWAYS has more stuff being made.
Edited by Xenos on 6/19/2013 10:06 PM PDT
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Posts: 497
Zerg is the most played race, doing fine at the top levels, and the only race that lets foreigners be competitive against Koreans AKA EASIEST. DH Stockholm had like 62 Zerg players out of 128...

Zerg also won like the last 5 GSL, what do you want. God damn dude.


idk about you guys, but I don't play GSL, or against many Koreans, it was an opinion and was looking for what you thought. Not stats on the top hundred people of the world. Second off this game is heading towards balanced, so I would say its more of the player rather than the race. Have you seen bronze level zergs? Obviously op. But you know, what do I know ;)
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Posts: 3,379
I think testing 100/100 for the upgrade would be much better. 200/200 is insane that early in the game, and that's a big part of the reason you don't see many Zergs drop.
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Posts: 759

putting the sack upgrade aside.. it is true that zerg has more 'required' upgrades compared to terran or toss.

comparing core units.. zerg is pretty much useless unless upgrades for those specific units are researched. in order for zerg to drop, zerg has to research two upgrades. while terran and toss can use them right out of the factory line (to a much greater efficiency).
.

A 9 time master complains about this? I am surprised.
The required upgrades are there to balance zerg flexibility and burst production.
Stim is cheap? sure, let's make it 250-250 and 60sec research. And the Terran will burst Protoss and Zerg like it's Second Amendment Day.
Edited by thanatos on 6/24/2013 4:08 PM PDT
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Posts: 260
06/18/2013 06:33 PMPosted by Redrider
If this was automatic at lair tech I think everyone wouldn't complain as much about zerg being underpowered etc. It isn't op since to be efficient you still need carapace. And it would balance out drop play vs the other races. Since toss/terran can do consistent drops at around 7 minutes (unless rushed) the lair tech would be just behind or right around that time. This opens up a lot of early harass strategies for zerg before mutas/instead of mutas, and will cost a lot less. From drop play for zerg going from 400 min/300 gas to 200 min 100 gas and the smaller capacity of overlords I don't see balance issues. I just thought this would be cool as zerg. Lemme know what you think :)


Something needs to happen. This is an option I hope is seriously considered at Bliz HQ because once they wall off you have to sit as they get 200 essentially and eventually come out to coin toss steamroll whatever you have.
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Posts: 102
06/24/2013 07:41 PMPosted by Paladin
If this was automatic at lair tech I think everyone wouldn't complain as much about zerg being underpowered etc. It isn't op since to be efficient you still need carapace. And it would balance out drop play vs the other races. Since toss/terran can do consistent drops at around 7 minutes (unless rushed) the lair tech would be just behind or right around that time. This opens up a lot of early harass strategies for zerg before mutas/instead of mutas, and will cost a lot less. From drop play for zerg going from 400 min/300 gas to 200 min 100 gas and the smaller capacity of overlords I don't see balance issues. I just thought this would be cool as zerg. Lemme know what you think :)


I think the game is pretty balanced as of now but this would definitely fun.
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Posts: 2,093
06/19/2013 10:05 PMPosted by Xenos
thats like saying zerg = ants. terran/toss = scorpions. justifying that ants are fine because they outnumber the scorpions. what kind of stupid logic is that?

It's the most played race for a reason.

zerglings are basically useless unless they have boost.

Yeah, and Marines need Stim and Combat Shield.

roaches are mostly useless (unless really early in game) unless they have speed.

Have you ever looked at the production tab in a TvZ? T ALWAYS has more stuff being made.
Well no sh**, What is a reactionary race supposed to do? Build a sh**load of units. You are one stu** Mother*****.
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Posts: 923
06/24/2013 08:04 PMPosted by Nerchio
It's the most played race for a reason.


Obviously the cool xenomorphic "bad guy" race is going to be the most popular. Especially when Kerrigan is their leader. Even if the game was completely balanced Zerg would still win the majority of tournament's simply because of how many there are.
Edited by Croimos on 6/25/2013 1:18 PM PDT
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Posts: 2,093
It's the most played race for a reason.


Obviously the cool xenomorphic "bad guy" race is going to be the most popular. Especially when Kerrigan is their leader. Even if the game was completely balanced Zerg would still win the majority of tournament's simply because of how many there are.
Whats funny is how you quoted me when clearly, that was me quoting someone else.
Edited by Nerchio on 6/26/2013 2:47 PM PDT
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Posts: 2,412
No, then Protoss would have to scout how much gas we mine in the first 6 minutes of the game. That is too much for them. Zergs should be the only ones that have to see if the Protoss takes his gasses at 6:30 or 6:45 or 7:00 or just one at 6:30 and the other at 7:00, or none, or one.
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