Which do you prefer? CC First or 1 Rax Fe?

Posts: 1,359
I very often 1 Rax FE in TvZ and do various timings, like 2 Fac Blue Flame or Polt-style hellion marauder +1 push.

I open 12 or 13 gas in TvP

Gas openings in TvT all day, every day.
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Posts: 1,761
It really depends on what I see my opponent do. If they get an early expansion, then I'll try to mimic them so I can keep up in macro. I usually go barracks, OC, and then expand if I'm trying to mimic them, though.
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Posts: 1
I'd advise heavily against opening CC-first in TvT. As stated by others, 2-rax reaper openers smash a CC first, and usually a gasless 1-rax expand as well, unless you scout it coming and get a bunker in your mineral line ASAP. Also, doing either will slow down the plethora of tech(Hellbat)-based aggression you can do in TvT.

TvZ, you can still do both. I like CC first, since the only zerg build that can potentially kill it would be a 6pool, which is essentially suicidal against every other terran build, and you can occasionally hold a 6pool with CC first if your SCV micro is good enough.

TvP, neither one is really safe, especially CC-first. In PvT, any time I see a CC-first, it's a free win for me. I always open with a safe 1-Gate expand in PvT, with a 13 scout, and if I see a CC-first, I can simply chrono out 2 quick zealots rallied to your front. If you build the CC on lowground, you probably just lost. You won't have the bunker up in time to stop me, and the only way to stop the 2 zealots and eventual stalker will be to pull a bunch of SCVs and go for a surround, losing SCVs and whatever economic advantage you may have had. If it's in-base with a wall, you'll still have to pull SCVs to repair, and when my stalker arrives, I can use to wall against you and snipe repairing SCVs and your first few marines... and by the time you're ready to push me back, I can have a sentry at your ramp. For the cost of an additional Chrono'd Zealot, I can basically contain you to mining off of one base until you have medivacs. Or, you know, if I look away, but you don't really want to rely on that. As for 1-Rax expand, it's okay, but holding a Zeal/Stalker poke with an MS core flying in your back without taking damage is tricky. Oh, yeah, and a super-fast proxy oracle does horrible damage to both. Stick to a Reactor or Reaper expand here.
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Posts: 6,848
I lose every time I go CC first. I typically 1/1/1 expand in all match ups.
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Posts: 308
1 rax and CC first die to reapers in TvT and any sort of oracle play in TvP.

You CAN CC first or Rax expand TvP but you need a blind fast ebay and blind turrets and to burn scans blindly to get a scout in, so offensive/defensive gas openers are much, much more popular.
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Posts: 2,074
06/22/2013 10:08 AMPosted by Saleh
TvP, neither one is really safe, especially CC-first. In PvT, any time I see a CC-first, it's a free win for me. I always open with a safe 1-Gate expand in PvT, with a 13 scout, and if I see a CC-first, I can simply chrono out 2 quick zealots rallied to your front. If you build the CC on lowground, you probably just lost. You won't have the bunker up in time to stop me, and the only way to stop the 2 zealots and eventual stalker will be to pull a bunch of SCVs and go for a surround, losing SCVs and whatever economic advantage you may have had.


If you chrono 2 Zealots, they will not stop the Bunker assuming correct Bunker timing and scouting, and you can afford to pull 10 SCVs to deal with the situation, and the expense of going for that much early pressure will balance out the SCV damage you do. Unless you're on Neo Planet S with a ridiculous short rush distance, that opening should not actually force the Terran to be behind. At BEST it equalizes, but the Terran will not be behind.

Put it another way: I will at the very least scout on 16 as Terran, and if you 13 scout me, I will assume Zealot pressure until I scout differently. I will drop the Bunker as soon as possible, and pull 5-6 SCVs with the Marine to surround the first Zealot. The Bunker will finish shortly thereafter, and I will push back the Zealot/Stalker following it up. I have 2OC, 2 MULEs, and your Nexus is delayed because you spend money on units, and no chronoboost on Probes.

I've looked at countless pro replays and done the strategy myself many many times on ladder, and the idea that CC-first is not safe in TvP is a myth. There is exactly 1 way to try and take advantage of a CC-first that doesn't put you behind to correct defense, and that is a reactive proxy Stargate all-in. Even that is holdable with correct decision-making.
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Posts: 3,244
yea, i would say that most players can capitalize on me expanding fast... there is no gentlemens agreement to try and 1-up your opponent with pure macro

most matchups the safest i can do is a factory expand for all matchups... though the good news is thats also enough to get to a fast 3rd, hellions are great map control and widow mines for defense (swap to tech lab if i need tanks vs a roach or stalker all in)
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Posts: 2,595
There is nothing wrong with 1 Rax FE in TvT/TvZ. It worked in WoL, and it still works in HOTS. However, the 2 gas follow-up is generally better than the 3 Rax follow-up because of the new units/abilities.

It depends heavily on the map. For example, Whirlwind is a good CC first map because it's so large. 4 player maps are much better than 2 player maps because there's a chance you won't be scouted right away.

I sometimes like to 1 Rax FE in TvZ since Reaper openers are so dominant nowadays. Zergs have gotten more bold with their Overlords and you can occasionally snipe one early with a couple of Marines.
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Posts: 18,740
06/22/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Jazzman
Do you think CC first works well for TvT as well?


Unless you are absolutely certain he isn't going 2-rax Reaper, no. A 2-rax Reaper opening will murder a CC-first player, and any Reaper opening is a pain to deal with on any map not named Red City (that map is so huge). I have seen people go CC-first into Hellbat drops, but that's much more of a professional "I respect that my opponent goes macro, so I'm going to macro harder" kind of thing rather than a strict "CC-first is totally safe" that it is in TvP/TvZ.


Thanks for the heads up. :)
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Posts: 1,807
I only gassless in TvZ. Too risky and/or costly in TvT and TvP. I suppose you could make gassless openings work in TvP but you have to start blind countering stuff to stay safe which makes any initial advantage you might get negligible at best.
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Posts: 18,740
06/28/2013 03:10 PMPosted by ScareCrow
I only gassless in TvZ. Too risky and/or costly in TvT and TvP. I suppose you could make gassless openings work in TvP but you have to start blind countering stuff to stay safe which makes any initial advantage you might get negligible at best.


What opening do you do specifically for each match up out of curiosity?
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