StarCraft® II

I just realized why I am now bad at Zerg.

Posts: 2,412
I was a solid mid-master in late WoL. But the redeeming thing is that I never rushed winfestor+gglord. The only games I reached this combo was when a completely contained opponent would refuse to leave and I could not risk smashing a standard army into their stronghold.

I am not bad because of any direct nerf to the Zerg race. In fact, my strategies were buffed handsomely (because they usually involved ultralisks or hydralisks).

I realized I am now bad because new units patched over my strategies. I didn't realize exactly how I was winning games until I repeatedly suffered embarrassing losses in HotS. In a Protoss matchup, I would either do oboeman's 3base roach push to punish their complete ignorance of my gas on 18 supply, or if it was late game I would bait them into stupid engagements and annihilate their army with classic roach/hydra/corruptor or bane reign (my favorite). I did this when they thought they were going to snipe my "undefended 3rd."

Vs Terran, I absolutely LOVED going pure, pure mass ling with double ups. I would paint the map with lings, creep, and expansions as I mined from 2 gasses into the midgame. Lings were everywhere. Lings were burrowed under overlord creep in their 3rd, my hatches were in their 4th and 5th because of reasons, lings were surrounding their army while others dropped into their main. My APM was through the roof by NA/EU and superhuman by SEA standards. Then came the 3/3 ultras.. It was so much fun and it really taxed my multitasking/macro skills, because if I forgot an inject or OL it was a pretty horrible loss.

Vs zerg it was roach/hydra. K.

So what the !@#$ happened? Terran got widow mines. That's about it. There goes everything I knew about the matchup. My lings dropping into his main never got there because a couple widow mines intended for mutas he blindly tried to counter killed the OLs; all my lings supposed to be around his army are gone because there was a mine there. My group that was supposed to be in his 3rd killing a planetary are now gone because there was a mine and a MULE factory instead. My defending group is all gone because a couple 500mph speedivacs just went through my defenses and dropped heal(th)bats.

It is a shame. This approach relied on speed and multitasking. When my lings have to follow an overseer, walk up to a mine, split, wait for a couple seconds for it to shoot, then run past, that defeats the entire purpose of having fast units.

Protoss got a rewind button. Remember how my game plan was to bait them into stupid engagements that they regret? There is no longer such thing as a stupid engagement for Protoss. There are only two kinds now: game-ending and neutral. They cannot overextend their army. They move in to snipe a base, then recall straight out of my trap. They can do this repeatedly. By the time they move across the map they have another recall.

The MSC also has 14 sight so you can't really surround them or surprise them by sniping it anyways. Bane reign is also an absolute joke because of the massive buffs to Protoss air. And the roach rush? The nexus cannon could last as little as 15 seconds and it would still delay the push too long to have any chance. They pretty much get this auto-counter-any-rush-without-scouting by default. Why does Zerg have to waste thought, APM and an overlord or two so they scout and prepare for a rush when protoss gets a free pass?

Apparently this is more of a vent than anything. I found that I was an unconventional player and I was proud of it. I executed unusual builds to counter the meta-game and that's why I dropped banelings on so many derpy robotic "master" protoss sentries surrounded in their own forcefields. It feels so !@#$ty to create your game around trickery to frustrate your opponent into forgetting his build only to have it all patched away.

Bottom line, it looks like I am going to have to be the derpy robotic player to win games. Does anyone else feel me here? The game becomes substantially less fun for me if I can't do anything but the gold standard; unfortunately, all other windows are closed by Terran's new units, Protoss's new units, and none were opened by Zerg's new unit. I really hope LotV does a better job of diversifying gameplay--WoL offered more opportunities than this expansion.
Edited by VapidSlug on 6/24/2013 8:53 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 395
06/24/2013 08:43 AMPosted by VapidSlug
Terran got widow mines. That's about it. There goes everything I knew about the matchup. My lings dropping into his main never got there because a couple widow mines intended for mutas he blindly tried to counter killed the OLs; all my lings supposed to be around his army are gone because there was a mine there. My group that was supposed to be in his 3rd killing a planetary are now gone because there was a mine and a MULE factory instead. My defending group is all gone because a couple 500mph speedivacs just went through my defenses and dropped heal(th)bats.

Learn to micro and build mutas. Seems to work for those Koreans.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,412
06/24/2013 09:01 AMPosted by lolfail
Learn to micro and build mutas


My post is exactly about HotS units requiring certain builds in every matchup (mutas) and eliminating all other options. Try to keep up.

Can't you see that buffing dropships because mutas were buffed only makes you use buffed mutas? Because what else is there? It's creating an evolutionary arms race between mutas and drops while everything else dies out.
Edited by VapidSlug on 6/24/2013 9:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,074
I just realized why I am now bad at Zerg.

Correction: You just realized how bad Zerg is--for you and for everyone.
Reply Quote
Posts: 395
06/24/2013 09:04 AMPosted by VapidSlug
Try to keep up.

Sorry, was preparing for story exam, and reading large posts certainly messes me up now.

06/24/2013 09:04 AMPosted by VapidSlug
Can't you see that buffing dropships because mutas were buffed only makes you use buffed mutas?

Actually they buffed med-vs and mutas in same patch (in speed regard)
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,790
I have a replay I need to remember to upload when I get home... I've been working on a roach/hydra/ling/bling style against Terran and I think you'd be surprised to see just how well the composition can work, especially if they forgo tanks. My end goal is ultra hydra, and I do get all ground upgrades.

If you enjoy going against the meta game, then you should enjoy it, especially with everyone playing so helbat focused now.
Edited by Comadiroma on 6/24/2013 9:52 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,412
That would be great. As of now, I am trying to go fast hive on roach ling bane while medivacs are beaming between my bases and mere threat of widow mines make counter attacks extremely slow and obvious.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,997
hear hear.



I realized I am now bad because new units patched over my strategies. I didn't realize exactly how I was winning games until I repeatedly suffered embarrassing losses in HotS.

Vs Terran, I absolutely LOVED going pure, pure mass ling with double ups. I would paint the map with lings, creep, and expansions as I mined from 2 gasses into the midgame. Lings were everywhere. Lings were burrowed under overlord creep in their 3rd, my hatches were in their 4th and 5th because of reasons, lings were surrounding their army while others dropped into their main. My APM was through the roof by NA/EU and superhuman by SEA standards. Then came the 3/3 ultras.. It was so much fun and it really taxed my multitasking/macro skills, because if I forgot an inject or OL it was a pretty horrible loss.

So what the !@#$ happened?

Terran got widow mines. That's about it.

Protoss got a rewind button.

Apparently this is more of a vent than anything. I found that I was an unconventional player and I was proud of it. I executed unusual builds to counter the meta-game and that's why I dropped banelings on so many derpy robotic "master" protoss sentries surrounded in their own forcefields. It feels so !@#$ty to create your game around trickery to frustrate your opponent into forgetting his build only to have it all patched away.

Bottom line, it looks like I am going to have to be the derpy robotic player to win games. Does anyone else feel me here? The game becomes substantially less fun for me if I can't do anything but the gold standard; unfortunately, all other windows are closed by Terran's new units, Protoss's new units, and none were opened by Zerg's new unit.


100%.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,650
Correction: You just realized how bad Zerg is--for you and for everyone.


Exactly. Zerg units have very bad synergy. They don't have medivacs to heal them while fighting or Colossi to melt everything while standing at the back of the army.
Reply Quote
Posts: 274
Valid points. But when people QQ, they always seem to forget how intuitive people can be, and how common human error occurs.

I currently enjoy ZvT right now. I also enjoy watching Masters and Grandmasters play against them. They win some, they lose some, like every other person regardless of race.
Reply Quote
Posts: 53
I build Spines and Spores in the middle of the map to block of their path and then have swarm hosts in my base sending locusts into the mid map while I harass with mutas and an overseer checking for mines.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,650
I'm having a hard time beating Protoss without Swarm Host. I feel like Roach/Hydra gets melted too easily.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,790
http://drop.sc/345812

http://drop.sc/345811

One is versus mech, the other is vs helbat/bio. Both oddly enough on the same map, same positions, and essentially the same attack. I'm still fleshing out the build because I feel like I'm currently vulnerable to really aggressive 2 base timings, but lately I've been favoring the type of play I did in the bio/helbat game where I focus on being really aggressive with lings and keeping the terran player feeling like they have to play defensive, even if I'm actually at a deficit as a result. The end result is I get to power up to a fun composition.

Most people don't really know how to react to it, especially when I actually take the time to attack from 2 angles.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,412
I would like to give this thread my 100% support. OP, you sound exactly like me when I played WoL
...

almost 100% of protoss open stargate now . . . I felt like I earned the victories I took from my Protoss opponent, since I was constantly multitasking with drops, and barely holding attacks with bane-rain and clever positioning. Luring a deathball into a choke and dropping banelings on top of his sentries and colossi was one of the greatest feelings ever, and Blizzard has taken that away from me with all the stargate buffs.
...

Terran is a different story altogether, but suffice it to say that I'm pretty peeved that they can counter zerglings so !@#$ing easily with reactored factory units. It used to be necessary to have tanks for beating ling/bane, but widow mines and helbats have made ling heavy strategies so much weaker that it's absurd


I am so glad somebody else feels the same. That helpless feeling that you can only imagine that protoss has as overlords comb over his stupid move. You are correct, in HotS you either don't have enough gas to really do anything or he just recalls out of the banes and you waste half of them on pure shield damage that doesn't matter.

Isn't it obvious that everything wrong with HotS it is all protoss' fault? With this, I am even talking about Terran's new units. The widow mine--the epitome of Rock's endless quest to make Terran build non-scouting factories in TvP--meant to make mech viable against immortals and even zealots (+shield dmg? anti-protoss?), and the bio healthbat, meant to make mech viable against mass zealot, were created and tuned without even considering the effects to the TvZ matchup. At all. I remember watching the showoff vid of how good they were against zeals and thinking: wtf will that do to my zerglings?! Did blizz not even ask that question... ever?
Reply Quote
Posts: 34
I'm with you OP.

Speeding runbys are a thing of the past. They are no longer viable against Terran or Protoss. I used that strategy so much to hurt macroed players. My main army assaults head on with lings running to fourth or third, only to lose them all to a ggmine. Now my army is hurting and I haven't even touched their econ.

The same voes for toss.... they just recall back if their army is out of position. My drops or burrowed roaches do very little now.

I'm sorry, but this game does not reward people with more APM, multitasking, or better army placement anymore. I work very hard then lose in an in instant. Too many times have a speedivac fly in over my spores and deal massive economic damage. Might as well not even build spores at this point.

My better play over my opponents is negated with derpy play.

I have stayed away from 1v1 because of this.
Reply Quote
Posts: 260
"The Swarm" as we are sarcastically called have been de-evolved into a turtle race. We are back to every unit being inferior, cost ineffective, requiring more micro, with the same unit cap, with Terran having a worker advantage due to mules and Protoss having a perma "get out of jail free" button.

The Zerg are balanced back to WoL now, which is good, but the Terran and Protoss are balanced into HotS.

I fear we're going to spend the next 18 months like this. At least they're playable now but it's very painful.
Reply Quote
Posts: 503
I think OP is forgetting something serious here. HotS nerfed a lot of his off the wall strats, sure. Yet in spite of this, it raised the actual skill required to play well. You have to micro and work to not get hit by mines. You have to split zerglings and banelings and not engage poorly or off creep.

Against Protoss, most of the time you just have to hold off the all-in and then kill their third and win. Otherwise, be more cost efficient, which it sounds like is a concept that you don't really understand or appreciate, playing mass pure ling styles against Terran, when banelings make your composition so much stronger. Swarmhosts, Broodlords, Ultras, Infestors are all really cost efficient still. Vipers? Derp.

I feel like you're just saying, "I don't want to play normal because I'm an individual and skilled players are beating me because I don't adapt to the way the game changes." Well tough luck boyo, this game is harder to play well. And believe it or not, that's a good thing.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,790
I would like to give this thread my 100% support. OP, you sound exactly like me when I played WoL
...

almost 100% of protoss open stargate now . . . I felt like I earned the victories I took from my Protoss opponent, since I was constantly multitasking with drops, and barely holding attacks with bane-rain and clever positioning. Luring a deathball into a choke and dropping banelings on top of his sentries and colossi was one of the greatest feelings ever, and Blizzard has taken that away from me with all the stargate buffs.
...

Terran is a different story altogether, but suffice it to say that I'm pretty peeved that they can counter zerglings so !@#$ing easily with reactored factory units. It used to be necessary to have tanks for beating ling/bane, but widow mines and helbats have made ling heavy strategies so much weaker that it's absurd


I am so glad somebody else feels the same. That helpless feeling that you can only imagine that protoss has as overlords comb over his stupid move. You are correct, in HotS you either don't have enough gas to really do anything or he just recalls out of the banes and you waste half of them on pure shield damage that doesn't matter.

Isn't it obvious that everything wrong with HotS it is all protoss' fault? With this, I am even talking about Terran's new units. The widow mine--the epitome of Rock's endless quest to make Terran build non-scouting factories in TvP--meant to make mech viable against immortals and even zealots (+shield dmg? anti-protoss?), and the bio healthbat, meant to make mech viable against mass zealot, were created and tuned without even considering the effects to the TvZ matchup. At all. I remember watching the showoff vid of how good they were against zeals and thinking: wtf will that do to my zerglings?! Did blizz not even ask that question... ever?


While HOTS did make some styles weaker, it also gave us completely new styles, and ultimately, that is what's going to happen anytime you make ANY change let alone the huge number of changes that go into an expansion. Vapid, did you get a chance to look at either of the replays I posted?
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,080
I think OP is forgetting something serious here. HotS nerfed a lot of his off the wall strats, sure. Yet in spite of this, it raised the actual skill required to play well. You have to micro and work to not get hit by mines. You have to split zerglings and banelings and not engage poorly or off creep.

Against Protoss, most of the time you just have to hold off the all-in and then kill their third and win. Otherwise, be more cost efficient, which it sounds like is a concept that you don't really understand or appreciate, playing mass pure ling styles against Terran, when banelings make your composition so much stronger. Swarmhosts, Broodlords, Ultras, Infestors are all really cost efficient still. Vipers? Derp.

I feel like you're just saying, "I don't want to play normal because I'm an individual and skilled players are beating me because I don't adapt to the way the game changes." Well tough luck boyo, this game is harder to play well. And believe it or not, that's a good thing.


The game is definitely harder for Zerg but the OP isn't complaining about that. He's annoyed that the number of strats for Z are just so limited now and I definitely feel him.
Terran can counter lings/banes so hard that T3 is necessary to take out their T1+medivac compositions.
And Skytoss is so strong and cost efficient that you can't afford to be creative against them either.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]