StarCraft® II

Complete Hellbat Revamp

Posts: 891
It's not the Hellbat that's overpowered so much as the hellbat/speed medivac combo. Blizzard is looking @ hellbats and deciding whether or not to roll their damage in with Infernal Pre-Igniter.

While this is good I think the Hellbat needs a far more drastic change.

1. Hellbats can no longer be trained from the factory. Hellions can transform into Hellbats after researching the upgrade. The upgrade no longer requires an armory to be researched.
2. Hellbat bio-tag is removed as it is both unnecessary and silly.
3. Hellbats benefit from Infernal Pre-Igniter and have -5 damage from their current state.

Here's the explanation:

1. Part of the problem with hellbats is that they're too easy to get out. Forcing the terran to get a tech lab on the factory whilst Transformation Servos researches instead of a reactor really slows down the deadly hellbat drops. However the terran can spend the money he was going to spend on an armory on the research. This makes it easier to use hellbat openings for either bio or mech as you don't commit to that armory tech too soon.

2. The bio tag is flat out unnecessary. Hellbats already have so much HP that it can be very hard to shut them down with a reasonable amount of units. two hellbats between a geyser with a medivac can kill infinity lings ffs (and if they don't attack with the lings you go for drones since queen cant kill them fast enough anyway). they already 1v1 zlots and stalkers marines hellions and zerglings, they don't need to have infinite life. Healing should stay with bio where it belongs.

3. What is the big deal about nerfing hellbat damage vs light -5 and making them benefit from IPI? They still 2shot marines/scvs/probes/drones/zlings just like they did before... so it doesn't really poorly affect your drops to go in with -5 damage. Vs Zerg the hellbat would still 1-shot +3 armor zlings with +3 attack as long as they got +3 per upgrade. Vs Terran hellbats are primarily used for soaking up damage for your tanks so the damage should be 90% unnoticeable. Vs protoss hellbats are usually either hitting armored units (in a straight-up fight) or hitting very few zlots. If you are fight mass zlot it's pretty much an auto win for hellbat-clumping Terran because hellbats could have RF Hellion damage vs light and still win 0/0 vs 3/3/3 zlots en masse. sooooo..... the damage isn't game-breaking at all.

If you disagree with any of this, please let me know and explain why because right now I just cannot - for the life of me - figure out why the hellbat hasn't been modified yet.

To conclude, I don't see these changes to be so much "nerfs" as "modifications." Allowing faster research of the Transformation Servos would encourage Terrans to build hellions earlier gaining more map control and scouting info creating more interesting games that can still morph into deadly hellbat dropping fire-fests.
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Posts: 2,889
tbh, i think terran has been needing a high health per cost unit that we did not have in WoL... medivacs only make them more tank'y, considering how bad it was TvZ vs bane/infestor in WoL, it does feel kind of like payback to have hellbats (or basically firebats)

the "must be built as hellions" thing has already been tested and i think they wanted hellbats available with less tech... but at the same time they are too strong early if rushed (you should check the patch notes on liquidpedia on how many changes hellbats, aka battle hellions undertook)

the bio tag only affects harassment power, much like bio i find it not very common that medivac healing was a deciding factor in big battles... medivacs mostly heal damage from stim anyways and i actually find getting more than 4 medivacs as mech too much

i think they want players to use pre-igniter and servos more, despite it being a nerf, it does open up more ways to play that players just dont use because getting blue flame means getting servos is also valuable... I do think hellbats are too good by default and Blue Flame doesnt mean they are any worse against armored targets, they do damage like roaches... 4x blue flame hellion drops and run by are by far scarier than dropping 2x Hellbats (remembering from WoL)
Edited by Oldben on 6/23/2013 9:04 PM PDT
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Posts: 4,510
Problem is any big nerf like removing bio tag, or blue flame nerf removes its ability to mesh with Bio which is one of the main design premises of hellbats. They should buff other units to make hellbats a less attractive option in TvT than removing hellbat Bio use in other matchups. If Blizzard found a way to make super spore crawlers I am sure they can find a way to make hellbats less attractive like better vikings, or make the banshee not a stupid paper plane.
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Posts: 1,666
No.
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Posts: 891
06/24/2013 04:23 AMPosted by Xenos
No.


Good comment. Very in-depth and helpful. I really appreciate the amount of time you put into that :)
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Posts: 2,833
There's already been many videos and comparisons done with Hellbats without the bio tag, the difference is dramatic. When you can no longer heal them, they are much weaker. There is an enormous difference in their staying power when dropped right into the nest - they die much faster under fire.
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Posts: 6,088
There's already been many videos and comparisons done with Hellbats without the bio tag, the difference is dramatic. When you can no longer heal them, they are much weaker. There is an enormous difference in their staying power when dropped right into the nest - they die much faster under fire.


So do you think the bio tag needs to stay based on these videos because it's too big of a nerf? Or do you think it is the nerf it needs and it's better off removed?
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Posts: 3,739
-5 to light damage isnt nears as much as -18 like they are proposing now...which is RIDICULOUS

that is insane, and would totally ruin them in the other matchups... especially combined with the fact of how hard, delayed, and costly it would be to get that upgrade that gets them back to 30 damage
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Posts: 151
06/23/2013 08:44 PMPosted by Alcibiades
1. Hellbats can no longer be trained from the factory. Hellions can transform into Hellbats after researching the upgrade. The upgrade no longer requires an armory to be researched.

This change would actually break TvZ. Look up some DRG games in beta and you'll see a 2 base hellion / marauder / transformation servos build that wins every game unless Zerg goes 2 Hatch Muta.
06/23/2013 08:44 PMPosted by Alcibiades
2. Hellbat bio-tag is removed as it is both unnecessary and silly.

This would be great as it simultaneously weakens drop play and boosts TvP mech. With this change you could actually use the SCVs as supplemental damage instead of being forced to run away.

I think maybe the best way to patch the Hellbat is to prevent it from being transportable in Medivacs when in Battle Hellion mode, like a sieged up Siege Tank. It's direct, has some level of precedent, and nerf the drop while keeping the hellbat stats, which is acceptable in all other instances.
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Posts: 9,751
06/24/2013 03:32 PMPosted by Voir
There's already been many videos and comparisons done with Hellbats without the bio tag, the difference is dramatic. When you can no longer heal them, they are much weaker. There is an enormous difference in their staying power when dropped right into the nest - they die much faster under fire.

Link please because I cannot find any such videos.

I personally find Hellbats just fine with mech when I play, and I don't use Medivacs.
Hellbats seem to perform their role just fine in the HTOMario games I have watched when he uses Hellbats without Medivacs.

For the most part, the only cases where I even see Medivacs and Hellbats together are Hellbat drops (which are considered problematic), and some rare bio-bat plays against Zerg and Protoss.

In the TvZ cases, the Hellbats seem to overperform because of the damage already done by drops, or possibly because the healing may just be too much during direct engagement--particularly small engagements that are of similar size to Hellbat drops.
In the few TvP cases where I have seen bio-bat used have I rarely seen Hellbats sustained by the healing during combat, and it definitely is not necessary in mech play. As such, I don't believe that the bio tag is actually important in the TvP match up. The evidence that the Medivac's ability to heal Hellbats is in any way important in TvP just isn't there, or I haven't come across any such evidence yet.

Hellbats may be fine to add in bio compositions without the tag considering that they can be reactored and used without upgrades (production and upgrades being the two greatest barriers to most bio-mech mixes). The only significant concern with Hellbat/bio mixes is that they can slow down the mobility of a bio composition when a Terran player really needs to split or run to avoid damage, but if a player was ever adding Hellbats in bio compositions then that obviously was not enough of a concern to dissuade using Hellbats.
Edited by TerranicII on 6/24/2013 8:04 PM PDT
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Posts: 891
-5 to light damage isnt nears as much as -18 like they are proposing now...which is RIDICULOUS

that is insane, and would totally ruin them in the other matchups... especially combined with the fact of how hard, delayed, and costly it would be to get that upgrade that gets them back to 30 damage


18 damage does seem a bit silly. I mean that would put it's vs light damage to below RF hellions...
I would be fine with them needing pre-igniter as long as they remove the armory requirement. I always did think it was a clunky balance fix to have the super cheap hellions need a t3 building to be produced
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Posts: 891
@ Guillermoman

I think the real problem is that the Hellbat is just too strong for it's cost. 100m/30buildtime/2supply = 18+12vlight aoe damage with 135 hp. When combined with the incredible mobility of drops that is just too much.

@ Voir
Yes, the bio tag makes hellbats way more effective when dropping. That's why I - among others- advocate for removing the bio tag because it's one of the things that makes them too strong.
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Posts: 9,751
@ Guillermoman

I think the real problem is that the Hellbat is just too strong for it's cost. 100m/30buildtime/2supply = 18+12vlight aoe damage with 135 hp. When combined with the incredible mobility of drops that is just too much.

The Hellbat is balanced out by its normal lack of mobility in direct combat though. The only cases where Hellbats actually are problematic always involve the Medivac. Cutting down on Medivac synergy is still the best choice because it preserves mech play and goes directly after the real problem.

Removing the bio tag along makes the drops a lot more manageable, and if drops are still a problem then stricter cargo sizes or removing the ability to load Hellbats altogether are good options.
Edited by TerranicII on 6/25/2013 8:07 AM PDT
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Posts: 487
It's not the Hellbat that's overpowered so much as the hellbat/speed medivac combo. Blizzard is looking @ hellbats and deciding whether or not to roll their damage in with Infernal Pre-Igniter.

While this is good I think the Hellbat needs a far more drastic change.

1. Hellbats can no longer be trained from the factory. Hellions can transform into Hellbats after researching the upgrade. The upgrade no longer requires an armory to be researched.
2. Hellbat bio-tag is removed as it is both unnecessary and silly.
3. Hellbats benefit from Infernal Pre-Igniter and have -5 damage from their current state.

Here's the explanation:

1. Part of the problem with hellbats is that they're too easy to get out. Forcing the terran to get a tech lab on the factory whilst Transformation Servos researches instead of a reactor really slows down the deadly hellbat drops. However the terran can spend the money he was going to spend on an armory on the research. This makes it easier to use hellbat openings for either bio or mech as you don't commit to that armory tech too soon.

2. The bio tag is flat out unnecessary. Hellbats already have so much HP that it can be very hard to shut them down with a reasonable amount of units. two hellbats between a geyser with a medivac can kill infinity lings ffs (and if they don't attack with the lings you go for drones since queen cant kill them fast enough anyway). they already 1v1 zlots and stalkers marines hellions and zerglings, they don't need to have infinite life. Healing should stay with bio where it belongs.

3. What is the big deal about nerfing hellbat damage vs light -5 and making them benefit from IPI? They still 2shot marines/scvs/probes/drones/zlings just like they did before... so it doesn't really poorly affect your drops to go in with -5 damage. Vs Zerg the hellbat would still 1-shot +3 armor zlings with +3 attack as long as they got +3 per upgrade. Vs Terran hellbats are primarily used for soaking up damage for your tanks so the damage should be 90% unnoticeable. Vs protoss hellbats are usually either hitting armored units (in a straight-up fight) or hitting very few zlots. If you are fight mass zlot it's pretty much an auto win for hellbat-clumping Terran because hellbats could have RF Hellion damage vs light and still win 0/0 vs 3/3/3 zlots en masse. sooooo..... the damage isn't game-breaking at all.

If you disagree with any of this, please let me know and explain why because right now I just cannot - for the life of me - figure out why the hellbat hasn't been modified yet.

To conclude, I don't see these changes to be so much "nerfs" as "modifications." Allowing faster research of the Transformation Servos would encourage Terrans to build hellions earlier gaining more map control and scouting info creating more interesting games that can still morph into deadly hellbat dropping fire-fests.


no, because all your changes will destroy mech play.
i think people like you need a brain revamp.

stop posting hellbat hate threads.
for real, hellbat is the reason why mech play is possible in hots in all 3 terran matchups.
as long as the enemy player doesnt refuse to scout and use his brain and build static defense (i have to build turrets too when my zerg enemy builds mutas) hellbat drops can be defended easily.

other than that, both flash and innovation said, that hellbats are fine and dont need to be nerfed/changed.
Edited by SeBa on 6/26/2013 2:03 AM PDT
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Posts: 2,889
06/25/2013 07:03 AMPosted by Alcibiades
I think the real problem is that the Hellbat is just too strong for it's cost. 100m/30buildtime/2supply = 18+12vlight aoe damage with 135 hp. When combined with the incredible mobility of drops that is just too much.


the thing is

135 isnt that high... roaches and zealots have more for the same cost

their damage is high but at the cost of range and long attack interval, they are almost a melee unit... their damage is only devastating if dropped on top of other units because of the medivac, its only against other melee units where they can take advantage of their splash on a regular basis

.

tbh, if their base damage is still 18 and they will still be effective against zerglings... zealots not so much, but it just means we will be back to WoL again needing pre-igniter to deal with mass zealots

i also think that their damage is just one of those over abused things because tbh, they could have just made workers have no armor type and it would have had the same effect (hellbats would be down to 18 vs workers but still do full damage vs light)
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Posts: 1,015
To be perfectly honest I'd rather just have Firebats back (complete with Stim) and have them require a tech lab on a Barracks, but then I'd wager the reason we didn't see that is the same we didn't see Medics come back outside of the WoL campaign heh...
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Posts: 891
@ SeBa
These changes would not ruin mech play. They would stop Hellbat drops from happening in 90% of TvTs.
Maybe you like scouting something reacting as best you can and still losing 3-5 scvs.
Maybe you like having to have 400 minerals worth of D in each mineral line (bunker + 4 marines + missile turret).
Maybe you like games where it doesn't matter how good your game-sense or tactics are as long as you're good at microing a few drops.
Maybe you think that hellbat drops are REQUIRED to make mech viable. Well you would be wrong. Hellbats make mech more viable in TvT and TvP primarily for their ability to soak up damage. In TvZ it's the widow mine that keeps mech viable more than the hellbat.

Hellbat drops are totally overpowered and needed a much harder nerf than Blizzard is considering.

Also, FlaSh and InNoVatioN abuse the crap out of hellbat drops; said drops make it EASIER for them to make MONEY playing SC2 - you can't possibly expect them to be objective about hellbat drops.
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