StarCraft® II

Just got Heart of the Swarm - Getting Raped.

Posts: 126
In Wings of Liberty, I was easily top 8 in Diamond, even finished Master in 2v2, in one season. Now I just bought Hots, and I am getting raped. Especially ZvT

Problems with Hots:
-I have no use for the swarm host.. in which scenarios would I use this unit? What would this counter? And what would counter it?
- Are hydras that much more versatile with the speed upgrade?
- Widow mines .. How?
- End game zerg seems nonexistent to me.
-
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Posts: 5,227
Use the Swarm host in ZvP, thats pretty much it. It gets killed by scans and drops, and isn't very effective vs MMM.
Hydras in ZvT are not good alone. They are only good when you have tank units in the front, such as a lot of zerglings or ultras.
Widowmines.... Don't ask. Just learn to bring a overseer with you and don't run into any engagements without baiting a few of them with some lings first.
endgame zerg: Ultra/ling/bling. Keep your opponent in >3 bases.
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Posts: 658
You just need to practice vs widow mines. You CAN see them on the map, they're not invisible when burrowed. Good luck spotting them on creep, though. Run single lings in if the bio isn't protecting them. If it is, try to flank. WMs kill terran bio as much as they kill you, so if you're gonna eat a hit make sure HE eats it too.

Swarm host are very situational. Powerful against ground-heavy toss comps, and against terran mech (actually very strong against hellbat/thor when at critical mass). They're cheaper than ultras, too. Beware though, very micro-heavy in spite of what it seems.

Speaking of ultras, they were buffed. Use them.

Hydras are better. They counter skytoss well until templar come into play. After that you need to mix in swarm hosts to zone out the templar and zealots. They still kinda suck against anything non-air, but they're better.

End-game is rough. Terran can beat our macro and still have better/more efficient armies until ultras hit the field. Hellbat drops mid-end-game will make you want to kick a puppy. Hard.

Don't make broodlords unless you're goofing around.

Our AA sucks harder now that infestors got nerfed. IT were nerfed into the dirt, and fungal took a bad hit.

The viper is cool. Try it out against any army but terran bio.

Don't engage spores with mutalisks. Blizzard did a lazy patch-fix to stop muta wars(Imagine the worst possible game you could be forced to play, then add cancer) since they don't want to fix our AA for whatever reason.

Zerg is in a rough spot in a lot of matchups, but it can still work. The ultralisk is a shining light. So is the viper. Let them guide you to victory and stuff.

Edit: Oh yeah, and keep vaseline handy for when you get a ZvT. Even when you win, you'll need it.
Edited by Ataraxia on 6/26/2013 4:28 PM PDT
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Posts: 126
Thanks for the post!
You just need to practice vs widow mines. You CAN see them on the map, they're not invisible when burrowed. Good luck spotting them on creep, though. Run single lings in if the bio isn't protecting them. If it is, try to flank. WMs kill terran bio as much as they kill you, so if you're gonna eat a hit make sure HE eats it too.

Swarm host are very situational. Powerful against ground-heavy toss comps, and against terran mech (actually very strong against hellbat/thor when at critical mass). They're cheaper than ultras, too. Beware though, very micro-heavy in spite of what it seems.


Interesting information. Although detection / tanking (running single lings) is not the only problem. Doing these two things are very micro intensive and require my full attention.

Although I consider myself a hardened SC2 player (finished Master 2v2 in season 2) Microing correctly was always a problem, I always found myself getting too caught up in battles, and ending up with floating minerals, or lack of larva due to lack of injection. So even if I can solve my widow mine problem, I feel like it will cause more problems since it requires too much micro.

Swarm hosts are def another micro problem lol. Whenever I play terran, I never went siege tank, since it was too micro intensive, I feel like swarm hosts are similar.
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Posts: 153
Zerg is currently struggling vs. Terran, especially late game. It's got to the point where Terrans have become greedy by building 3CCs early on and using their many options of harassment to secure their first 3 bases. Many Zerg players have to counter with early aggression and all-ins. And Blizzard thinks this is just fine because they want to see more active early games.

As for dealing with Widow Mines, don't bother trying to overmicro your Lings unless you're in Master's League. (2v2 Master's in one season doesn't count.) It really isn't worth your APM. Instead, use other units to tank the mine shots for you, like Speedlords, Overseers, or Roaches. Also, if you see Widow Mines clumped up in an area, you can use Banelings to minesweep.

The current meta-mid-game is Muta/Ling/Bane in order to deal with bio-mine and those damn annoying drops. Then it's a natural transition to Ultras, which have been beefed up in HotS and now do full damage to all units (instead of lower damage to light and bonus damage to armored). However, even Ultras in the endgame isn't auto-GG, as Terrans can counter with more drops and kiting.
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Posts: 193
06/26/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Ataraxia
The viper is cool. Try it out against any army but terran bio.


Agreed with everything except this. Why wouldn't you use the viper's blinding cloud against bio balls? Works great with fungal, too.

@OP - If you're having trouble late game, I would highly recommend:

vs P - hydra/ultra/viper (blinding cloud and abduct crushes colossus balls)

vs T (bio) - ling/bling/ultra/viper/corrupter
vs T (mech) - SH/hydra/roach/viper (don't get too complacent with your SH's because a tech switch to BC's will probably kill you if you turtle too long)

(corrupter's have been seeing much more play recently against terran since they're hardier than mutas and can focus on medivacs)
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Posts: 658
06/27/2013 01:21 PMPosted by Goodtimes
Why wouldn't you use the viper's blinding cloud against bio balls? Works great with fungal, too.


Because BC is a 14 second spell that the terran bio will stim and run out of unless you use fungal. If you use fungal... why are you bothering with BC? How many casters can your army really support? If you can afford to have vipers AND infestors and have excess APM to spend on fungal AND blinding cloud... why haven't you already won the game?

Vipers work vs bio, but they're not really a good return on your investment in gas, supply, or APM. That's why I said they're not good against bio.
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Posts: 193
06/27/2013 01:49 PMPosted by Ataraxia
Why wouldn't you use the viper's blinding cloud against bio balls? Works great with fungal, too.


Because BC is a 14 second spell that the terran bio will stim and run out of unless you use fungal. If you use fungal... why are you bothering with BC? How many casters can your army really support? If you can afford to have vipers AND infestors and have excess APM to spend on fungal AND blinding cloud... why haven't you already won the game?

Vipers work vs bio, but they're not really a good return on your investment in gas, supply, or APM. That's why I said they're not good against bio.


I don't really see why you can't afford to have 2-3 infestors and 2-3 vipers in your army. During the mid game I would agree that this would be gas intensive, but not during the late game.

I don't see how having APM has anything to do with whether the game has been won already or not. I use the following for hot keys:

1 - main army
2 - vipers
3 - infestors

It's a little more APM heavy, but definitely doable.

And even if infestors are out of the question and it's only vipers, you can still do damage to them with lings/blings as they run away under the cloud.
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Posts: 658
I think you'd have more success splitting your lings/blings by hotkey and flanking with the lings than you'd have mixing in vipers. Hell, I think you'd have more success splitting all of your army by half and flanking than you'd have with the vipers. Flanking + viper + infestor = a lot of microing. Where does your macro come in, at that point?

And come late game, each viper is an ultra you can't make. Vs bio, I don't think the trade would be worth it.
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Posts: 193
06/27/2013 02:12 PMPosted by Ataraxia
And come late game, each viper is an ultra you can't make. Vs bio, I don't think the trade would be worth it.


Ever hear of stimmed marauders? -_-

ESPECIALLY turtling stimmed marauders!

How is macro relevant to this conversation, we're talking about microing through a single engagement.
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Posts: 126
And come late game, each viper is an ultra you can't make. Vs bio, I don't think the trade would be worth it.


Ever hear of stimmed marauders? -_-

ESPECIALLY turtling stimmed marauders!

How is macro relevant to this conversation, we're talking about microing through a single engagement.


I actually agree with Ataraxia statement about Split + Flank. Although I'm not really familiar with the viper and the power of BC, but a bio ball would not survive a Ultra / Ling/ Bling surround.

Bio balls are easy to deal with.. but I mostly have trouble with mech, especially with the implement of hellbats and widowmines.

I would imagine, vipers to snatch thors, and probably a mainly roach army and ultras
Edited by YenMaster on 6/27/2013 2:37 PM PDT
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Posts: 193
I'm not disagreeing about using flanking groups, I'm just saying that BC will empower the flank that much more.

If you're having trouble with mech, then I think we can all agree that vipers are clutch for using BC on sieged tanks and abducting thors.
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Posts: 153
06/27/2013 01:49 PMPosted by Ataraxia
Why wouldn't you use the viper's blinding cloud against bio balls? Works great with fungal, too.


Because BC is a 14 second spell that the terran bio will stim and run out of unless you use fungal. If you use fungal... why are you bothering with BC? How many casters can your army really support? If you can afford to have vipers AND infestors and have excess APM to spend on fungal AND blinding cloud... why haven't you already won the game?

Vipers work vs bio, but they're not really a good return on your investment in gas, supply, or APM. That's why I said they're not good against bio.


it's only viable on knlontas mire in the various weird chokes
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Posts: 1,109
it's only viable on knlontas mire in the various weird chokes

People still play that map?

When going ling/baneling/muta I would agree with not using vipers against non-siege tank bio. They have the potential to pay off and work out, but in most situations having a few more infestors and ultras is better. Keep your mutas alive as long as possible to kill medivacs. When the mutas die, make corruptors and continue killing medivacs in large battles. Once the terran's medivac count is reduced, morph brood lords.

Ultras are a stronger mid/late game unit than broodlords, but eventually terran manages to make enough marauders and mines to deal with them. Fortunately broodlords hard counter them, so they are a great tech switch late game.

It all comes down to where you prioritize gas spending. Personally, ling, baneling, muta, infestor, ultra, corruptor, and broodlords tends to eat my gas throughout the game.

If your going roach hydra, vipers are required. When zerg has a supply advantage they can take fights against bio with roach hydra, but when terran catches up in supply zerg must have vipers to compete.
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Posts: 164
You just need to practice vs widow mines. You CAN see them on the map, they're not invisible when burrowed. Good luck spotting them on creep, though. Run single lings in if the bio isn't protecting them. If it is, try to flank. WMs kill terran bio as much as they kill you, so if you're gonna eat a hit make sure HE eats it too.

Swarm host are very situational. Powerful against ground-heavy toss comps, and against terran mech (actually very strong against hellbat/thor when at critical mass). They're cheaper than ultras, too. Beware though, very micro-heavy in spite of what it seems.

Speaking of ultras, they were buffed. Use them.

Hydras are better. They counter skytoss well until templar come into play. After that you need to mix in swarm hosts to zone out the templar and zealots. They still kinda suck against anything non-air, but they're better.

End-game is rough. Terran can beat our macro and still have better/more efficient armies until ultras hit the field. Hellbat drops mid-end-game will make you want to kick a puppy. Hard.

Don't make broodlords unless you're goofing around.

Our AA sucks harder now that infestors got nerfed. IT were nerfed into the dirt, and fungal took a bad hit.

The viper is cool. Try it out against any army but terran bio.

Don't engage spores with mutalisks. Blizzard did a lazy patch-fix to stop muta wars(Imagine the worst possible game you could be forced to play, then add cancer) since they don't want to fix our AA for whatever reason.

Zerg is in a rough spot in a lot of matchups, but it can still work. The ultralisk is a shining light. So is the viper. Let them guide you to victory and stuff.

Edit: Oh yeah, and keep vaseline handy for when you get a ZvT. Even when you win, you'll need it.


I love the last part.
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