Mule Changes

Posts: 11
Im assuming everybody heard about game 1 in WCS Europe with Tefel and MVP. If you didn't i will summarize the game for you. Mvp (Terran) opened 14 cc and which lead into hellion production and a fast 3rd command center. Tefel opened hatch gas pool then early 3rd hatch into early roaches. This early roach attack put MVP at <strong>5</strong> SCVS. Compared to Tefel's 40.<br/><br/>If that happened to any of us. It should be game over. However due to having three command centers. He called down some mules and eventually got it up to 16 SCVs compared to 50 drones. With Mules he was dead even at 1600 mineral income rate with TEFEL. <br/><br/>So let's talk balance. We all know tefel threw the game, but look at the fact that with mules he was able to come back so easily with the worker count. If that happened to zerg or protoss. zerg can't call down free workers that don't cost supply and collect faster than a regular harvester. <br/><br/>How in anyway shape or form is that fair?<br/><br/>Im in gold and I watch alot of pro games, being mostly a terran/zerg player. I understand terran and zerg. Protoss ehh...<br/><br/>Blizzard looks at the the professional win rates. And they are relatively even so why change them. The professional gamers make up .01% of the SC2 Community. <br/><br/>Late game The idea that terran can have a bigger army population due to the workers costing no supply, isin't fair. Beside the fact that terran's units are already more cost efficent than zerg.<br/>Who is gonna win 200 supply of army vs 180. Unless one unit is being hard countered, bigger supply = bigger army. 95% of the time the bigger army is gonna win.<br/><br/>Changes.<br/><br/>Think about it for a second.<br/>Whats the problem.<br/>Mules<br/><br/>Taking out mules would ruin terran and make them completely UP imo, so my idea is to make small nerfs to them.<br/>Having mules cost supply, would be an absolutely great way to even out terran late game. If both races wanted to mine, they should have workers that cost supply.<br/><br/>Lowering the collection rate of mules ( depending on how much they are) would be a good way to even them out early on.<br/><br/>Placing a cool down on the mules so that you can't call 4 down from one command center, would make it so the Terran has to pay more attention.<br/><br/>Let's say you miss your larva injects. What is going to happen is you will probably lose due to the fact that you can't make any units.<br/>If you forget to call down mules do to a battle. Who cares? call down 4 from each command center making no difference. <br/><br/>I believe that if blizzard were to implement all these changes terran would be UP. Just throwing out three changes that I think one or two would make a big difference to balancing out terran.<br/><br/>Discussion below is appreciated.
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Posts: 289
hmm, well last time I checked zerg can make workers 3 times faster than terran. They can build all their units at the same production facility allowing them to easily make major tech swaps without having to build new buildings. Trust me, zerg have it easy mode, please stop complaining.
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Posts: 157
Nerf Zergs ability to @%####!# 3rd/4th bases with ling a moving and you can have a nerfed mule.
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Posts: 7,601
I'm pretty sure at 180 supply ultralisk army is going to roll over a 200 supply army of marines, and 180 supply of banshees will laugh of 200 supply of roaches. It's not always about supply, it's about the unit composition.

The fact that the game was so long shows how uneasy it was to come back from that position. MVP was dropping all across the map while he was macroing back up, and Tefel had some engagements that went MVP's way.
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Posts: 11
If you haven't noticed basic terran units such as marines and maurders will dominate a zerg army.. How many games do you see terran using tier 3 units.
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Posts: 59
06/26/2013 11:55 AMPosted by TheOddOne
If you haven't noticed basic terran units such as marines and maurders will dominate a zerg army.. How many games do you see terran using tier 3 units.


Because our tier 3 is !@#$. Well, at least BCs are. And to switch to thors/BCs requires and entirely different set of research.

Also, using those tier 1 units requires more micro than the zerg army will.
Edited by Chrss on 6/26/2013 12:06 PM PDT
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Posts: 370
06/26/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Chrss
Because our tier 3 is !@#$.


Just because you are unable to macro to that point doesn't mean its bad.

BC/raven/Viking is strongest composition in game, albeit comes with a monumental gas cost. Also BC is only bad when you do not understand that you can throw down pdd and negate most anti-bc attacks.

Not sure why you guys are surprised, Mvp has come out of many near death games with minimal supply (game agasint Losira casted by husky).

The QQ on this forum embodies what Day9 has said about balance, people overreact when pros do anything.

"Oh wow, hellbats killed workers, lets run to a forum and cry OP"

Lebron helped score 30+ points in game 7, does that mean lay ups are OP?
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Posts: 1,061
tl;dr

Wall-o'-text much?

Still waiting on that GED or what?
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Posts: 467
or have you ever thought that tefel was a idiot? made on ROACHES.......no hydra's, no mutas, no broordlords......he basically gave MVP THE GOD OF MACRO TIME and he slowly picked up small packs of roaches. But if u noticed the 2nd game Tefel adjusted his play and won.
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Posts: 4,510
06/26/2013 12:23 PMPosted by ICEdKing
Because our tier 3 is !@#$.


Just because you are unable to macro to that point doesn't mean its bad.

BC/raven/Viking is strongest composition in game, albeit comes with a monumental gas cost.?

Actually Mass Tempest with HT or mass carrier with HT is the strongest composition in the game behind cannons.
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Posts: 361
06/26/2013 09:09 AMPosted by FreedOm
Nerf Zergs ability to @%####!# 3rd/4th bases with ling a moving and you can have a nerfed mule.


they did, widow mines lol, hold up your end homie.
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Posts: 361
06/26/2013 12:23 PMPosted by ICEdKing
Because our tier 3 is !@#$.


Just because you are unable to macro to that point doesn't mean its bad.

BC/raven/Viking is strongest composition in game, albeit comes with a monumental gas cost. Also BC is only bad when you do not understand that you can throw down pdd and negate most anti-bc attacks.

Not sure why you guys are surprised, Mvp has come out of many near death games with minimal supply (game agasint Losira casted by husky).

The QQ on this forum embodies what Day9 has said about balance, people overreact when pros do anything.

"Oh wow, hellbats killed workers, lets run to a forum and cry OP"

Lebron helped score 30+ points in game 7, does that mean lay ups are OP?


and Hitler killed millions of people, and he is a human and breathes and walks and eats and speaks, you do those things too, so there fore you are Hitler..
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Posts: 84
06/26/2013 12:23 PMPosted by ICEdKing
Lebron helped score 30+ points in game 7, does that mean lay ups are OP?


Loving NBA myself, that is my favorite quote of the Forum's.
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Posts: 1,569
Seriously? Another mule thread?
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Posts: 46
06/26/2013 09:00 AMPosted by FRZ
hmm, well last time I checked zerg can make workers 3 times faster than terran. They can build all their units at the same production facility allowing them to easily make major tech swaps without having to build new buildings. Trust me, zerg have it easy mode, please stop complaining.


this?
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Posts: 370
06/26/2013 05:28 PMPosted by DaBaRcODE
and Hitler killed millions of people, and he is a human and breathes and walks and eats and speaks, you do those things too, so there fore you are Hitler..


Not sure how that relates to my argument. I was stating a fact that if a pro succeeds with a specific unit, ppl in the community tend to overreact and try to find fault within that unit or specific advantage, hence why so many ppl try to talk about balance all day.

The Lebron analogy was simply an extension to a popular sport.
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Posts: 899
Garbage post. Don't ever post on forums if you can't (A) spread your words out via paragraphs (B) punctuate or (C) use text commands properly.

Also an aggressive opening via roaches always puts the zerg at risk to possible counter attacks. slow roaches don't even counter micro'd hellions ffs.

And remember that you're talking about a FOUR TIME GSL winner here.... not some new unknown pro. In case you don't know what MVP's career means I'll enlighten you. He's proven 4 times that he is the best SC2 player in the world. Other people win tournaments, no one has won as much as MVP in SC2.

So when I see you make a poorly dredged up post QQing about balance based on this MU between a 4x GSL champion and someone who BARELY managed to qualify for the EU WCS I have nothing but contempt for your ability to assess balance.

Try to think about who the players are before QQing. No way MVP woulda come back that game vs Nestea or Life or Jaedong or friggen Soulkey. He outplayed Tefel. By a lot.

Looking @ the mule, the first mule doesn't even pay for itself since it costs the terran 3 1/2 scvs to build the orbital + 150 minerals.

Also Terran has the slowest worker production rate of all 3 races.

Also in case you didn't know, add 40 minerals to the cost of every rax/factory/starport/armory and 27 minerals to every supply depot/bunker/missile turret/engy bay and a whopping 80 minerals to building a CC. that's almost 500 minerals for an expo compared to toss's 400 and zerg's 350+drone mining time.
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Posts: 234

Lebron helped score 30+ points in game 7, does that mean lay ups are OP?


More like midrange jump shots (actually the most inefficient shot in basketball) are OP. He could not miss a jumper.
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Posts: 2,438
I saw the game, and your arguments are invalid. If Jung hadn't missed the mules in the first place the minerals would have been assimilated into the army anyways. Also Tefel had a pure (with the exception of 5-6 lings) roach army. Roaches are rather good however they eat up supply, and Jung was making marauders and tanks while dropping and removing tech. Mules had a big role in Jung's comeback, however, The game would have been in his favor regardless.
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Posts: 8,768
06/26/2013 11:55 AMPosted by TheOddOne
If you haven't noticed basic terran units such as marines and maurders will dominate a zerg army.. How many games do you see terran using tier 3 units.

medivacs and hellbats are technically tier 3.
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