StarCraft® II

ZvZ - How to predict and counter early spire?

Posts: 223
How do I predict that he's going early spire and how do I counter it?

The only thing that crosses my mind is that he's going early muta if he saves gas by not going roach or baneling but I have like 100 matches played so help pls lol.

Also this guy went 2 base and then he hardly had any drones on the 2nd base for like 2 minutes. Random as !@#$. It's like silver and gold players are so bad that it's impossible to predict what they're doing? I'm not saying I'm good but it's kinda retarded.
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Posts: 260
From my experience needing to tech straight to muta in the WoL days I would do a gas to 100 off one base. Start lair immediately. Start 2nd gas. 200 gas and lair would be done about the same time, muta tower. I'd have enough for roughly 4-5 mutas. I forget the mark. 5 minute? 6 minute. My brain is fuzzy on that part.

Anyway so honestly if you don't see a roach or a bane nest, and then see his hatch glob over you likely have a muta problem. Next you should see a 2nd gas pop up.

I think the dead giveaway would be him stuck on one base for some bizarre reason. Or if like you said, you see a second base but no drone count.

it takes 9 drones to get mutas if you think about it.
2=extract
6 = mine
1 = muta tower

So you'll see almost no drones, no buildings. It just kills your larva count so you might see more queens but that kills your food... so more overlords.. less larva..

Then he runs into your spore and splatsplat ;)

Does this help? I hope so. :)
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Posts: 126
Overlords my dear friend
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Posts: 652
06/27/2013 05:25 PMPosted by YenMaster
Overlords my dear friend


Sac one around 8 minutes. Earlier would be better if you think he's hardcore rushing to spire.
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Posts: 206
So much cluelessness it hurts my feelings to read. Follow these very simple steps and you'll be just fine.

1: Scout his natural gas timing and drone count. Few drones and early gasses will almost exclusively be mutalisks. I advice getting a few extra banelings, a spine and a spore. In case it's not Mutalisks, there's no other viable ZvZ build that requires four early gasses.

2: Lack of buildings at the front, and/or buildings not upgrading. A good Zerg will always try to place Evo-chambers/Roach Warren in positions that help block against Ling-attacks. If there's no buildings, or the buildings there are not upgrading as they should, you've got something fishy going on. Additionally Mutalisks players are very rarely out on the map early, as getting his army caught would force him to build a ton of banelings. Banelings cut heavily into the mutalisk counts, so they tend to sit defensive till mutas are out.

3: No roaches at the front to defend.
- In conjunction with the lack of upgrades, the lack of Roaches scream that he's playing Mutalisks.

4: Third base timings. A good Zerg will try to take a third base between 6-8 minutes. Anything later than that and you can afford to place more defenses.

^ Catching
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Posts: 802
I am amused that you are calling these people retarded, and yet, apparently, you are matched against them. Considering you are here asking how to counter early mutas, you can't be that much better than they are.

Just saying...

Anyway, how to counter. If someone goes super early mutas, all you need to do is drop a couple of spores, hold off the first wave of them, macro a little, and go win the game. With the buff to the spores, you can hold off the first ~9 mutas with just static defense. With luck he lacks the micro or sense to pull back, so he will lose some or most of his mutas to your spores, putting him even more behind than he already is.

How to detect it? Well, if he has barely expanded, is taking a lot of gas off of 1-2 base, odds are he is trying some kind of shenanigans, and with zerg it is almost exclusively mutas.

It is akin to seeing toss not expanding and trying to turtle inside 1-base; either he is massing void rays, DTs or something silly like that. Usually it also means they will try to ninja a base somewhere on the map. So just scout a lot, contain him, macro like a beast and anything he throws at you, will die by the time it moves out.
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Posts: 2,770
If you find that players at your level are not playing "optimally" and making choices that are hard to read, just implement an attack of some kind into your build. If they're doing something silly or stupid, then they should just outright die. When you do reach players that rush mutas "properly" you'll notice that they all follow a basic framework that you can identify readily, which is (generally speaking) an early lair followed by 4 quick gases.

Personally I open with ling speed into a banes nest into +1 carapace and grab a quick 3rd in every ZvZ. If I then scout roaches I transition into roaches myself and start upgrading ranged attack, if mutas I stick on lings for longer, drop spores, and counterattack when his mutas are out of position while droning up 3 bases.
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Posts: 3
I don't even scout for a spire lol
Mutas in zvz happens like !@#$ing 7/10 of the time so just make about 4 spores per base and the the opponent will waste 1200 minerals/gas as you march roach/hydra to his base to punish his unoriginalness and retardedness.
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Posts: 13,793
poke at his natural with speedlings without committing. see what he has. if he is not making units, be aware of the possibility of mutalisks.

take an early 3rd base and spread creep to it and get a spore at each base (maybe 2 spores at 3rd because it is most exposed).

If he attacks with mutalisks, he will not break you because you have spores and queens. counterattack with your ground units to deny his 3rd base, or even dive into his main or natural and kill drones.

you can either go counter muta with a bigger economy, but it's more stable to just go spore+infestor into roach/hydra/infestor.
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Posts: 3,491
I have no idea how to beat ZvZ. I lost to a Zerg player in the tournament today. Banelings are frustrating to use because they just send one ling to set off your Baneling. I feel like I can never fast expand because I get rushed, but if I don't, I'm behind.
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