StarCraft® II

Nasreth what do you do in ZvZ?

In your league, do that actually get a hatch?

Every single game I play they go early pool, fast speed and then banes.
No matter what I do, i get outproduced and killed really early. I don't know what to do.
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Noted.
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This is what I do in ZvZ. I'm a 7 time former masters if you wanna question credibility :O It's always about staying just a little bit ahead and getting that snowball effect.

Also note the evo chamber placements etc those walls are very effective.

http://drop.sc/346642
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This is what I do in ZvZ. I'm a 7 time former masters if you wanna question credibility :O It's always about staying just a little bit ahead and getting that snowball effect.

Also note the evo chamber placements etc those walls are very effective.

http://drop.sc/346642


Hatch first on whirlwind is just asking to die. So many people just blind 10p speed on that map because you see it so late.
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I did blind hatch first specifically because of rush distance and multiple spawns. I do see your point though but I don't think its as risky as the 2 spawn maps. I guess the classic 14 pool 15 hatch is preferable or even 14 gas 14 pool.
Edited by Jakamakala on 6/28/2013 10:33 PM PDT
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Fast expand, muta-ling - 60% of the time, it works everytime.
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15 pool 16 hatch and then i just kill opponent with mass lings should he refuse to make any kind of wall-in. Or i just transition into roach hydra into sh hydra into late game.
Or 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool (or something of sorts) with same outcome.
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I've been doing hatch first for the most part and defending early aggression with fast banelings and a spine and my first 2 queens.

Lately I've switched over to an 11 overpool build where I get early speed and pull off gas. It's a little more versatile than hatch first but you can die to early bane busts if you aren't careful.


The early bane bust losses - are those 1 hatch bane bust or 2? The 1 hatch bane bust losses can be easily fixed if that's the case. LMK :D
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In Masters league though everyone seems to play more conservatively going for more emphasis on econ.. it's a little different animal in the lower leagues when you actually expect early aggression pretty much each game.

Note: I've never been masters I'm just basing this on discussions here at the board and any/all replays that get shared.
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Yea, in platinum, most matches will go with a 10 pool or so, and somehow they magically get a hatch down before you can get to their base.

I don't know how. I really don't. But, i havent won any of the past 10 or so ZvZs. Nasreth, would you coach me :o
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Go ahead and go hatch first in ZvZ expect this to happen to you every time
http://drop.sc/346774

And.. just for the lawlz.. go ahead and tell me how I could have held that. I know I would have had a super econ advantage if I had held it.. but yeah.. I didn't, because I couldn't. No where near enough crap to defend with.
Edited by MrPaz on 6/29/2013 5:30 PM PDT
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In Masters league though everyone seems to play more conservatively going for more emphasis on econ.. it's a little different animal in the lower leagues when you actually expect early aggression pretty much each game.

Note: I've never been masters I'm just basing this on discussions here at the board and any/all replays that get shared.


It's true that people are more conservative because the risk is much higher for 10 pooling than the reward, but that doesn't mean they won't. It happens often enough but you learn how to deal with it effectively with drone pulls and drone drills, and losing a few drones will still put you ahead. Any follow up speedling attack you can actually stop with queens and a wall consisting of evolution chambers and maybe a spine and your roach warren.
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Yea, in platinum, most matches will go with a 10 pool or so, and somehow they magically get a hatch down before you can get to their base.

I don't know how. I really don't. But, i havent won any of the past 10 or so ZvZs. Nasreth, would you coach me :o


10 pool usually starts the pool around 1:20, which will finish at 2:25. The zerglings take 24 seconds so 2:49, then the travel will be literally 45-50 seconds on the larger maps, which plants you at their base at around 3:40-3:50. A hatch first build starts the hatch at 2:04 if timed correctly at 14 supply, and it will finish in 100 seconds, so at 3:44. Doesn't seem too far fetched to me. Of course on a smaller map you can probably shave a good 15 seconds off the rush time.
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I'm gonna 6pool every ZvZ until i get opponents that actually go early hatch/ecom.
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I've been playing ZvZ this way lately. It works pretty good at my level so I imagine it'd work ok at yours as well, since you probably have better macro and micro anyway.

http://drop.sc/346777
http://drop.sc/346778

Hope this helps. In a nut shell it's still the same basic meta of mass muta.. only you don't neglect upgrades, you work on getting 3/3 cracklings, but the important part is speed for your banelings and yeah.. you mostly counter whatever they're doing with ling/bling. The speedy banelings with tons and tons of 2/2 speedlings will hold off any kind of roach/hydra play..

I've had the most trouble when they go the same build basically then it comes down to whoever can get the most mutas. If you take a risky early 3rd it can make it VERY one-sided in your favor if you're able to saturate it and hold on to it. Otherwise you use your mutas to just deny any attempts at taking a 3rd. In other words, its pretty much the identical regular meta it's been for years.. but yeah a bunch of 2/2 zerglings will tear apart 2/2 roaches even just from having a ton more of them with fire support from mutas not to mention the secret weapon.. speed banelings.
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The problem is I usually don't last past the 10 minute mark. I either get outproduced by a 1 base person when i'm on 2, or something like that.

I really don't know what to do. the enemy always seems to have 2x lings than me, and better economy.
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Watch your replays when you lose. That's the #1 ZvZ advice, period.

If he seems to have better econ and more lings.. watch the replay. Compare your worker count and income to his at various moments. Find out when he gets ahead which is usually a mistake on ur part, correct the mistake.

Then GG
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Yep basically what it boils down to is Upgrades, and Replay Analysis. But yeah the difference between 1/1 vs 0/0 is huge.. especially in mirror match of ling vs ling.
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06/29/2013 07:12 PMPosted by roarbot
I really don't know what to do. the enemy always seems to have 2x lings than me, and better economy.


Sounds like you need to work on your macro.

06/29/2013 07:12 PMPosted by roarbot
The problem is I usually don't last past the 10 minute mark.


Post a replay?

You might be playing too defensive (common response after getting 6pooled, 10 pooled, or any other cheese), which leaves you behind if they don't, would be my guess, if it's not just macro.
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