StarCraft® II

Transformation Servos

Posts: 3,037
I've seen quite a few people suggesting that this upgrade be removed. Saying it has no use etc. Well here is the reason it exists.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Balance_Update_15

TERRAN
Hellion
Transformation to and from Hellbat Mode now requires the Transformation Servos upgrade from the Factory Tech Lab.
Transformation Servos requires an Armory and costs 150/150, with a 110 second research time.
[edit] Developer Thoughts
David Kim has posted on the Battle.net forums about the next Balance Update. He addressed issues in ZvT with Hellion contains followed up by Hellbat aggression once the Terrans Armory was completed, stating the likely change will be to bring back the Hellion to Hellbat research requirement, with it being in the Factory tech lab and require an armory, to give Zerg players more time to scout and prepare against Hellbat based attacks.

"Now that the highest skilled pro players have been playing the beta for a few weeks, we've been gathering pro level ladder data, pro feedback, as well as watching all the HotS tournaments/show matches that have been going on.

Out of everything we're seeing and hearing from pro players, we think the most important issue we need to deal with rather quickly is early game ZvT.

The biggest issue in the ZvT early game at the highest pro level seems to be the mass Hellion contain leading into the various potential mass Hellbat combinations right when the Armory comes into play. The time between Terran gaining full map control and then converting all their map control units into straight up power units looks to be too narrow.

Even without this threat, Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg. We're most likely going to add the Hellion to Hellbat transformation upgrade back to the Factory Tech lab with an Armory requirement. This will give Zerg more time to scout and prep against possible Hellbat based attacks when they see lots of Hellions in play."


So now before suggesting the upgrade be removed. Try to think about what that does to the ZvT early game.
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MVP - StarCraft
Posts: 27,271
I talked them into removing it during the Beta, just requiring an armory. Then a ton of Hellion/Hellbat timings happened, and they returned it. Now early game Hellbats are weaker vs light units. Maybe they should give it another go.
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Posts: 114
08/03/2013 11:10 AMPosted by Doncroft
I talked them into removing it during the Beta, just requiring an armory. Then a ton of Hellion/Hellbat timings happened, and they returned it. Now early game Hellbats are weaker vs light units. Maybe they should give it another go.


this, they should atleast try it in the balance map
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08/03/2013 11:10 AMPosted by Doncroft
I talked them into removing it during the Beta, just requiring an armory. Then a ton of Hellion/Hellbat timings happened, and they returned it. Now early game Hellbats are weaker vs light units. Maybe they should give it another go.


The strength of hellbats hasn't changed as much as people think. Especially since the only units zerg's will have at that point are lings roach and queens. And hellbats are still just as effective as they were against those units. They still 2shot lings.

08/03/2013 11:13 AMPosted by Csquared
this, they should atleast try it in the balance map


There is no need. They do the same damage after the nerf as they did before the nerf to all zerg early game units. Nothing has changed in the early game match up to justify making terran stronger in that aspect.
Edited by Domon on 8/3/2013 11:19 AM PDT
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Posts: 234
My idea is to make the hellbat trainable only from a factory which has a tech lab. This would promote two factory play, with one pumping out hellions from a reactor and the other researching servos. Then hellions could be transformed. If this happened, then hellbat damage should be changed to 18 (+6 vs light), with blue flame giving +6 vs light.
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Posts: 5,670
The strength of hellbats has changed a huge amount. In so far as they deal a little over half as much dps vs light units. The blue flame nerf really did put an end to the early game timing issue in TvZ, and it would probably be fine to remove transformation servos now.
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Posts: 2,055
Well since this change there has never been a servos timing attack performed in SC2 history. So obviously this was too big of a change. If an upgrade is never used, then I think we have a problem.
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Posts: 12,166
08/03/2013 11:10 AMPosted by Doncroft
I talked them into removing it during the Beta, just requiring an armory. Then a ton of Hellion/Hellbat timings happened, and they returned it. Now early game Hellbats are weaker vs light units. Maybe they should give it another go.

You are forgetting one crucial point:
Zergling: 35 health light unit. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's full 30 damage versus lights units. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's 18 base damage.
Roach: 145 health armored unit. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.
Queen: 175 health biological unit. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.
Spine Crawler: 300 health biological turret. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.
Baneling: 30 health biological unit. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.

These are the units that Zerg had to work with against the old Hellbat timings. Not one of those units has been affected by the Blue Flame nerf. Therefore, the timing push would still be problematic.
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Posts: 5,670
If there was a serious problem holding it because of reliance on lings at the timing, then they could honestly just change the values on the research now that BF is there, shift it down to a 40 second research time 50-50 upgrade, that kind of thing.

But there's no reason not to adjust it down.
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Posts: 4,486
08/03/2013 11:13 AMPosted by Domon
I talked them into removing it during the Beta, just requiring an armory. Then a ton of Hellion/Hellbat timings happened, and they returned it. Now early game Hellbats are weaker vs light units. Maybe they should give it another go.


The strength of hellbats hasn't changed as much as people think. Especially since the only units zerg's will have at that point are lings roach and queens. And hellbats are still just as effective as they were against those units. They still 2shot lings.

this, they should atleast try it in the balance map


There is no need. They do the same damage after the nerf as they did before the nerf to all zerg early game units. Nothing has changed in the early game match up to justify making terran stronger in that aspect.


This.
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Posts: 5,670
Zergling: 35 health light unit. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's full 30 damage versus lights units. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's 18 base damage.


That's absolutely true, though it's worth noting that they're less effective at killing fleeing drones, that any regen whatsoever by the lings makes it three shots, and that one armour upgrade makes it three shots.

That said, it's a timing issue, so the question is really one of whether or not the current research is excessive in its requirements.
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Posts: 12,166
08/03/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Renideo
Zergling: 35 health light unit. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's full 30 damage versus lights units. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's 18 base damage.


That's absolutely true, though it's worth noting that they're less effective at killing fleeing drones, that any regen whatsoever by the lings makes it three shots, and that one armour upgrade makes it three shots.


Hellbat timings were a problem because Zerg couldn't hold them. Not because of drone kills. Zerglings are also a very poor unit to use against Hellbats 2-shot or 3-shot.

08/03/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Renideo
That said, it's a timing issue, so the question is really one of whether or not the current research is excessive in its requirements.

The current research may not need to cost 150/150, but the time and armory requirement are important. Transformation Servos may even be balanced if it was free to research (except for the time), but an upgrade should be paid for at least.

This said, the upgrade requirements may not be excessive at all. The usefulness of the Hellion/Hellbat transformation depends on which composition you are using.

If one is using a bio composition, then Transformation Servos truly is useless:
-Hellions won't be upgraded past Blue Flame.
-Bio can harass with Medivacs filled with Hellbats or bio units more easily than it can sneak Hellions into a base.
-Hellions won't do much for bio in direct combat.

If one is using mech, then Transformation Servos will be very useful because both units are useful to a mech army.
Hellions are useful because:
-Hellions serve as great map-control units for the otherwise slow mech army.
-Hellions are a cheap harassment unit for mech because the rest of the composition (Ghosts-TvP, Vikings, Ravens, Thors, Siege Tanks, or Banshees) is gas-heavy. Even Widow Mines are a tad-bit more expensive by comparison.
-Hellions do alright in direct combat against a number of light ranged units if properly micro'd to line up their shots during combat. Hellion flanks can be very devastating to Marines and Hydralisks for example.
-Hellions can pick off scouts, workers in transit, and slow-moving High Templar or Sentries.

Hellbats are useful in mech because:
-They can serve as a meat-shield for mech that allows Tanks and Thors to fire off more shots before being damaged.
-Hellbats are excellent against melee light units and any light ranged units that they catch.
-Hellbats are stronger than Hellions against structures and some armored ranged units (if they don't kite).

Transformation servos is useful for mech because you can transform Hellions into Hellbats (vice-versa) at will, and utilize both of the unit's advantages. Bio rarely has use for Hellions outside of early-game harassment against Zerg, so Transformation Servos is not worth the investment for bio.
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Posts: 416
It should be merged with Infernal P.
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Posts: 5,894
If they simply reduced the cost to 100/100 and kept the research time the same, then I don't see a problem with that.
Edited by Qendel on 8/3/2013 1:01 PM PDT
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Posts: 12,166
08/03/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Momochi
It should be merged with Infernal P.

This may cause problems with Hellion=>Hellbat timing issues again unless if the tech-lab Factory does not cause enough of a production lapse to balance this.
If the production lapse is not enough to balance it, then Blue Flame would need to require an armory for this to happen, and that would be too hefty of a nerf to Blue Flame.

The best choice may be to leave the upgrades separate.
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Posts: 416
The timing is very very similar whether you need the armory or not. It's the upgrade time that is the "delay" here. The armory req is important for building ready made Hellbats.
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Posts: 914
08/03/2013 11:10 AMPosted by Doncroft
Maybe they should give it another go


i dont think they nerfed it enough. the hellbats would still do the same to roachs and buildings, and then hellbats will still be able to 2 shot lings (18 damage per shot vs 30 damage per shot)

the only difference is that it takes 3 shots to kill workers now. you get some more wiggle room in microing your workers vs hellbat drops.

i dont think the nerf was enough.

the real nerfs should have to do with the medivac in conjunction with the hellbats.

i dont think they should give it another go because hellbats are essentially the same pre and post patch vs lings and every other zerg unit early game (but workers).
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Posts: 976
I've seen quite a few people suggesting that this upgrade be removed. Saying it has no use etc. Well here is the reason it exists.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Balance_Update_15

TERRAN
Hellion
Transformation to and from Hellbat Mode now requires the Transformation Servos upgrade from the Factory Tech Lab.
Transformation Servos requires an Armory and costs 150/150, with a 110 second research time.
[edit] Developer Thoughts
David Kim has posted on the Battle.net forums about the next Balance Update. He addressed issues in ZvT with Hellion contains followed up by Hellbat aggression once the Terrans Armory was completed, stating the likely change will be to bring back the Hellion to Hellbat research requirement, with it being in the Factory tech lab and require an armory, to give Zerg players more time to scout and prepare against Hellbat based attacks.

"Now that the highest skilled pro players have been playing the beta for a few weeks, we've been gathering pro level ladder data, pro feedback, as well as watching all the HotS tournaments/show matches that have been going on.

Out of everything we're seeing and hearing from pro players, we think the most important issue we need to deal with rather quickly is early game ZvT.

The biggest issue in the ZvT early game at the highest pro level seems to be the mass Hellion contain leading into the various potential mass Hellbat combinations right when the Armory comes into play. The time between Terran gaining full map control and then converting all their map control units into straight up power units looks to be too narrow.

Even without this threat, Terran has plenty of early game strategies to utilize vs. Zerg. We're most likely going to add the Hellion to Hellbat transformation upgrade back to the Factory Tech lab with an Armory requirement. This will give Zerg more time to scout and prep against possible Hellbat based attacks when they see lots of Hellions in play."


So now before suggesting the upgrade be removed. Try to think about what that does to the ZvT early game.


You have to remember that Hellbat's damage was just severely nerfed via requiring blue flame upgrade. If they removed the transformation servos now it would be fine because Hellbats still would need the blue flame upgrade on top of it.

In general, transformation servos is way too expensive right now. And takes too long to research. It should be more like 50/50 or 100/100 and half the current build time.
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Posts: 12,166
I've seen quite a few people suggesting that this upgrade be removed. Saying it has no use etc. Well here is the reason it exists.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Balance_Update_15



So now before suggesting the upgrade be removed. Try to think about what that does to the ZvT early game.


You have to remember that Hellbat's damage was just severely nerfed via requiring blue flame upgrade. If they removed the transformation servos now it would be fine because Hellbats still would need the blue flame upgrade on top of it.

In general, transformation servos is way too expensive right now. And takes too long to research. It should be more like 50/50 or 100/100 and half the current build time.

You should have read my post.
The units that Zerg has to defend with at that point in time are not affected by Blue Flame at all, thus the timing would still be an issue.

Transformation Servo's cost can be reduced, but reducing the research time could be dangerous.
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Posts: 1,701
08/03/2013 12:02 PMPosted by TerranicII
I talked them into removing it during the Beta, just requiring an armory. Then a ton of Hellion/Hellbat timings happened, and they returned it. Now early game Hellbats are weaker vs light units. Maybe they should give it another go.

You are forgetting one crucial point:
Zergling: 35 health light unit. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's full 30 damage versus lights units. Dies in 2 hits to the Hellbat's 18 base damage.
Roach: 145 health armored unit. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.
Queen: 175 health biological unit. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.
Spine Crawler: 300 health biological turret. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.
Baneling: 30 health biological unit. Completely unaffected by Blue Flame.

These are the units that Zerg had to work with against the old Hellbat timings. Not one of those units has been affected by the Blue Flame nerf. Therefore, the timing push would still be problematic.


This...
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