StarCraft® II

Possible changes for balance test map

Posts: 9,750
08/17/2013 05:39 PMPosted by GroundZero
Ghosts will never be worth using against Vipers without some kind of buff.


Oh that's bullsh!t. Terran just haven't tried. Four Ghosts, four snipes, dead Viper. Ghosts and Vipers are only really going to see use in mech play anyway, and the addition of the Ghosts means you have a great way to push back and just generally harass Zerg with Cloaked Ghosts and Nukes.

No, the real bull!@#$ is that you are advocating the use of a 800 mineral, 400 gas, 8 supply investment to deal with casters that can be killed much more efficiently with Vikings, when the Vikings are more useful both against air units, and even on the ground.

Ghosts are not worth using against Zerg. The unit is almost strictly anti-caster in TvT and TvZ, and there are other units that kill those same casters more efficiently and are much more useful against other units.

Furthermore, Hellions, Banshees, Thor drops, Hellbats, Widow Mines and even Ravens are more efficient harassment options for mech than Ghosts.

08/18/2013 03:27 AMPosted by Adysin
Banelings on the other hand, they don't do enough damage to the units they're supposed to counter given their cost compared to the units they're meant to be used against. This weakness is further compounded by the fact that many of them will die before they even get to their targets. Add to that the fact that they die when they attack and you've got a unit that you have to sink a disproportionately large amount of money into to even stand a chance at winning the engagement only to still come out behind even if you do.

Banelings do enough because of their splash damage. They have the largest splash radius in the game, and they can be a pain to deal with.

Banelings are balanced specifically on the basis that many of them will die before hitting their targets. Suicide units are only ever balanced on that basis. This is the same way that Scourge (the only other controllable suicide unit in any released version of StarCraft multiplayer) were balanced back in Brood War. The difference is that Banelings get their strength from their splash rather than simply being a very cost-efficient single-target-only unit.

Heck, Banelings avoided a nerf back in WoL because Terran players learned to micro their units rather than a-moving.
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nanan wrong forum
Edited by StimPack on 8/19/2013 5:03 AM PDT
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08/18/2013 02:59 PMPosted by TerranicII
No, the real bull!@#$ is that you are advocating the use of a 800 mineral, 400 gas, 8 supply investment to deal with casters that can be killed much more efficiently with Vikings, when the Vikings are more useful both against air units, and even on the ground.


I'm not quite sold on this. Pardon me for theorycrafting, but while 4 ghosts is 800/400/8, 6 Vikings to one-shot a viper is just as expensive with a higher supply cost. And the Vikings can only kill one every 2 seconds so you probably want at least 12, whereas the same squad of ghosts could snipe one every 0.5 seconds given enough energy and enough clicking. Vikings are, of course, better in the fight afterwards, but I would think that taking out every Viper takes priority, and it takes awhile to land anyway.

Now if for some reason they're going full air like Viper/Corruptor/Broodlord, the viking obviously wins hands down, but I think there are other issues at that point.
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The other thing is, EMP is only a temporary solution and Ghosts quite honestly just aren't that helpful in TvZ anymore. Furthermore, 4 snipes off 4 ghosts is not only time wasted NOT microing your army away from banes etc., but won't kill the viper before cloud/abduct goes off and you're talking about using up a whopping 400 energy to kill a single unit... while conversely a High Templar just snaps his fingers and BAM dead Viper.

Because balance.
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The other thing is, EMP is only a temporary solution and Ghosts quite honestly just aren't that helpful in TvZ anymore. Furthermore, 4 snipes off 4 ghosts is not only time wasted NOT microing your army away from banes etc., but won't kill the viper before cloud/abduct goes off and you're talking about using up a whopping 400 energy to kill a single unit... while conversely a High Templar just snaps his fingers and BAM dead Viper.

Because balance.

..................Mech doesn't need to micro away from Banelings, and Vipers aren't going to be a problem for bio.

I'm not quite sold on this. Pardon me for theorycrafting, but while 4 ghosts is 800/400/8, 6 Vikings to one-shot a viper is just as expensive with a higher supply cost. And the Vikings can only kill one every 2 seconds so you probably want at least 12, whereas the same squad of ghosts could snipe one every 0.5 seconds given enough energy and enough clicking. Vikings are, of course, better in the fight afterwards, but I would think that taking out every Viper takes priority, and it takes awhile to land anyway.

When the Vikings do land they are much better in combat (25% more health against an army without anti-armor damage, 12 dps against everything and upgrades as opposed to 6.66/13.333 without), and their slightly higher mobility (as well as being a flyer) affords them some additional protection.

Furthermore, mech always needs Vikings to be prepared for an air switch and protect Ravens (which are often used as support units in mech) and add vision (Tanks can't see at their full range, and Vikings can be see high ground), so they are a unit that a Meching Terran already wants to produce. Adding a few extra Vikings is more useful than adding Ghosts.
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When the Vikings do land they are much better in combat (25% more health against an army without anti-armor damage, 12 dps against everything and upgrades as opposed to 6.66/13.333 without), and their slightly higher mobility (as well as being a flyer) affords them some additional protection.

Furthermore, mech always needs Vikings to be prepared for an air switch and protect Ravens (which are often used as support units in mech) and add vision (Tanks can't see at their full range, and Vikings can be see high ground), so they are a unit that a Meching Terran already wants to produce. Adding a few extra Vikings is more useful than adding Ghosts.


I do see the advantage against air switches, and will admit that tech switches against Mech are common and effective. However, for just the engagement, I think that preventing just one or two more blinding clouds from going down with the fast snipes from ghosts outweighs the benefit of the viking against a ground army. I feel that 4-5 more siege tanks firing would count for much more than the extra firepower of the viking, particularly with more supply being devoted to the core army.

I do really want to see mech be more viable in TvZ. I don't mean to try to suggest that ghosts are a full solution, as I realize they are not very versatile in the matchup, but I do think it's worth testing. I mean, if the main roadblock for mech viability is blinding cloud, and the fastest way to kill Vipers is the ghost, isn't it worth a try?
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Posts: 457
08/12/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Dayvie
TvZ feels quite balanced


Thats why the current WCS and TSC TvZ is won by 95% of Terran
http://de.twitch.tv/taketv/b/447613991

or
The last WCS
Top 3 Win "vs Zerg" 100% Terran
Top 10 Win "vs Terran" 0% Zerg
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Europe/Premier_Statistics

or
40 APM Terran players hanging in Diamond

Overseer speed was the main issue yeah, obvious troll is...

Edit:
K the date the post was made was before the current events, but still it should be noticed.
Edited by Syndicate on 8/19/2013 3:35 PM PDT
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Posts: 2,270
If you really want to encourage bio to mech transition I say you need to do some changes to the building tech for example make engineering bays have a tech add-on that allows them to upgrade mech weapons from there. This puts bio upgrades and mech upgrades on the same structure which will make a much better transition to mech. Engineering Bay could also get a tech add-on that allows two upgrades at once on the same engineering bay.
Edited by SabreWulf on 8/19/2013 4:26 PM PDT
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Posts: 6
overlord speed buff seems ok, i needa actually play it to see how fast that actually is. I think the mech buff is good, but the viper buff...

It's not gonna make a big difference, i mean, zerg players just build evo chambers and consume them; but it still makes me a little uneasy. The fact that this specific unit already causes bio only plays in all 3 races, i'm not sure if this is a good idea (well, zerg is cheap units only as in no ultras broodlords stuff like that; protoss no robo tech or above or stargate tech or above).
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Honestly, (as a toss player) I think the viper just needs a new ability that actually does some damage. I feel that zergs will pick infestor over viper because it has the ability to do damage whether it be infested terrans or fungal growth, whereas the viper costs more gas than minerals and does absolutely nothing if you lose 60+% of your army. If this was done, then maybe we'd see this unit in all 3 MUs as opposed to just PvZ and occasionally in TvZ. What that ability should be, I have no idea. Perhaps a similar ability the science vessel had in BW where it would poison units?

08/19/2013 04:24 PMPosted by SabreWulf
make engineering bays have a tech add-on that allows them to upgrade mech weapons from there. This puts bio upgrades and mech upgrades on the same structure which will make a much better transition to mech. Engineering Bay could also get a tech add-on that allows two upgrades at once on the same engineering bay.


I really hate this idea. Every race has 2 different buildings for upgrades and terrans are already the least gas intensive race. Why should they be able to research bio weapon and armor for the price of one ebay (which costs 125) while I have to make 2 forges (each 150) for the same upgrades.
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08/19/2013 09:57 PMPosted by DankCheddar
Perhaps a similar ability the science vessel had in BW where it would poison units?

Viper Irradiate?

I hope you mean a bio-only version like the original, because otherwise there are going to be some problems.

Edit: Actually, that would cause problems because Hellbats still have a bio tag. Vipers would hard-counter almost every single mech unit.
Edited by TerranicII on 8/19/2013 10:11 PM PDT
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Posts: 166
Wow, really? Merging mech upgrades is kind overpowering, unless their cost/upgrade time is sort of additive. Otherwise, a lot of problems with PvT.

Also, I kind of understand the Viper being more useful from the get go, but Overseer speed increase is noticeable. Most important is how the baneling drops going to be powered up.

Oh, protoss got harder to be pro at...
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Wow, really? Merging mech upgrades is kind overpowering, unless their cost/upgrade time is sort of additive. Otherwise, a lot of problems with PvT.

Also, I kind of understand the Viper being more useful from the get go, but Overseer speed increase is noticeable. Most important is how the baneling drops going to be powered up.

Oh, protoss got harder to be pro at...


Don't worry. You probably won't see anything other than 4m until deterrent counters are addressed.
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08/19/2013 10:31 PMPosted by OZH
Most important is how the baneling drops going to be powered up.


The speed change is for overseers, not overlords.

08/19/2013 10:31 PMPosted by OZH
Wow, really? Merging mech upgrades is kind overpowering, unless their cost/upgrade time is sort of additive. Otherwise, a lot of problems with PvT.


These are pretty bold statements for someone with 29 career ranked games played. You don't even know how overseers work, I don't think you should be disputing balance changes without a basic understanding of the game.
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Well everyone, it seems the Viper buff has been replaced with a +50HP increase to Ultralisks.
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08/19/2013 11:12 PMPosted by TechNo
These are pretty bold statements for someone with 29 career ranked games played. You don't even know how overseers work, I don't think you should be disputing balance changes without a basic understanding of the game.


I could see some nice two base mech all ins becoming good.

I mean, It seems pretty good at Zerglor's and my level.

What do you think?
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08/19/2013 11:14 PMPosted by nomufftotuff
These are pretty bold statements for someone with 29 career ranked games played. You don't even know how overseers work, I don't think you should be disputing balance changes without a basic understanding of the game.


I could see some nice two base mech all ins becoming good.

I mean, It seems pretty good at Zerglor's and my level.

What do you think?


I can't see that becoming an imbalance. A two base all-in wouldn't have more than 1/1 right? If the protoss goes colossi, the +1 damage on several vikings wouldn't make a major difference. And if the toss went immortal storm it wouldn't change at all.
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08/19/2013 11:20 PMPosted by TechNo
I can't see that becoming an imbalance. A two base all-in wouldn't have more than 1/1 right? If the protoss goes colossi, the +1 damage on several vikings wouldn't make a major difference. And if the toss went immortal storm it wouldn't change at all.


What if he added banshees though? They scale slightly better per head to head (cost though can be a factor).

With siege tank support and banshee focus fire, robo openings might be significantly weaker. The banshees would be able to focus down the low count of immortals (although the tank count would be low as well) or force stalkers, meaning that the hellbat (being ridiculously good in two base timings as strelok has shown us just walks in due to thier cost and surivability

I mean, the cost of the banshees might make grabing the upgrades non-viable, and the comp could teter between too many banshees, not enough tanks.

Granted, I don't think banshees are going to save mech at all, but a 13 min timing might be able to explot a lack of storm or pehonix support.
Edited by nomufftotuff on 8/19/2013 11:27 PM PDT
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08/19/2013 11:21 PMPosted by nomufftotuff
I can't see that becoming an imbalance. A two base all-in wouldn't have more than 1/1 right? If the protoss goes colossi, the +1 damage on several vikings wouldn't make a major difference. And if the toss went immortal storm it wouldn't change at all.


What if he added banshees though? They scale slightly better per head to head (cost though can be a factor).


What is this composition like? It's hard to imagine a terran being able to afford a meaningful tank count, banshees, and the vikings or thors needed to back them up against stargate units.
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What if he added banshees though? They scale slightly better per head to head (cost though can be a factor).


What is this composition like? It's hard to imagine a terran being able to afford a meaningful tank count, banshees, and the vikings or thors needed to back them up against stargate units.


Yeah that's what I was thinking. He might teeter between not having enough tanks, or having not enough banshees. Especially if he was aiming for two bases (as stated)

Considering that strelok usually goes post 11 min when he gets 6-8 tanks and a buttload of hellbats.
I mean, would it be 4 tanks and two banshees? 3 and 3? I don't know, how it would work which Is why I was asking you. :P

In a macro game though, It's hard to imagine banshees joining the fray. They are just so expensive, frail, and they kind of tickle most toss units. They have their own set of hardcounters. Ghosts are better for draining shields, and they just use energy. So I'm really at a loss for this patch.

Are they trying to make air terran a thing? Because that's laughable when you consider tempest and voidrays ><.
Edited by nomufftotuff on 8/19/2013 11:35 PM PDT
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