StarCraft® II

Call to Action: August 19 Balance Testing

Posts: 12,166
08/22/2013 09:49 PMPosted by DaveDroid
PLEASE test more mech changes ;; godamn it


This. Do something with servos, 50/50 no armory would be ok at this point.

The armory requirement is used to balance out a particular timing push against Zerg, so the time and tech requirement are important.

50/50 or even cheaper should be fine though, considering that it is only the timing that matters.
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Posts: 1,724
08/22/2013 09:53 PMPosted by TerranicII
The armory requirement is used to balance out a particular timing push


Not as strong with blue flame nerf. if scouted +1 carapace lings will murder that push.
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Posts: 12,166
08/22/2013 10:00 PMPosted by DaveDroid
The armory requirement is used to balance out a particular timing push


Not as strong with blue flame nerf. if scouted +1 carapace lings will murder that push.

Roaches and Queens are the stronger options, and they aren't affected by Blue Flame.

Zerglings might get another hit in before dying, or they might not depending on how tightly-packed the Hellbats are after they transform.

The delay is needed, but frankly it might not matter if the upgrade was free, so long as it merely takes up enough time after an armory is completed.
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It'd be nice too if tvp was balanced for the rest of us.
Just saying. Hate to qq here but it's frustrating.
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Posts: 71
It'd be nice too if tvp was balanced for the rest of us.
Just saying. Hate to qq here but it's frustrating.


Even if Mech was more powerful. Do you think it will be easier than bio? Just asking, because as challenging as Bio is, I find I have more success with it over Mech.

Or were you just saying T/P in general?
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Posts: 7,817
It'd be nice too if tvp was balanced for the rest of us.
Just saying. Hate to qq here but it's frustrating.


Even if Mech was more powerful. Do you think it will be easier than bio? Just asking, because as challenging as Bio is, I find I have more success with it over Mech.

Or were you just saying T/P in general?

Just in general.

This asymmetric balance is killing me.
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Posts: 71

Just in general.

This asymmetric balance is killing me.


Ah, gotcha. Damn those Protoss and their laserbeams.
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Posts: 213
Since David Kim might make overseers to move at 3.375 or something after upgrade. Couldn't he just make overseer doesn't lose the transport ability after it is morphed from overlords?

It would have much more worth to upgrade the ability with 200/200 with long as 130 sec to get the drop at 3.375 than pathetic 1.8.

As a healer shouldn't really double as transport or a warping in or building area for protoss?

In broodwar, Overlord can detect and transport. Zerg just has to morph Overseer which 50/50 costs more in SC2.

I'm willing for Overlord to lose transport ability to Overseer and pay for 200/200 +130 research time upgrade.

I agree that it doesn't fix overall balance of the game entirely. However, I do remember that David Kim add in Afterburner to Medivac with the sole reason of "he's seeing less of drops" and it makes the match not "as fun". That's also the same reason for protoss drop on warp prism as well since he said that the unit and its abilities were not used as much and therefore "not fun". This allows protoss to have more "aggressive play"
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Posts: 12,166
It'd be nice too if tvp was balanced for the rest of us.
Just saying. Hate to qq here but it's frustrating.


Even if Mech was more powerful. Do you think it will be easier than bio? Just asking, because as challenging as Bio is, I find I have more success with it over Mech.

Or were you just saying T/P in general?

I don't think it would be "easier" because there is a lot that a mech player has to remember and do to overcome the mobility issues, and properly setting everything up to where you can handle aggression without being crushed will be very difficult for most players at all levels.

In many ways, mech will always be more difficult than bio, the difficulty is just "different".
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Posts: 71
[quote]
I don't think it would be "easier" because there is a lot that a mech player has to remember and do to overcome the mobility issues, and properly setting everything up to where you can handle aggression without being crushed will be very difficult for most players at all levels.

In many ways, mech will always be more difficult than bio, the difficulty is just "different".


I agree. I asked because I think Mech will always be the more difficult play style.
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Posts: 7,817
[quote]
I don't think it would be "easier" because there is a lot that a mech player has to remember and do to overcome the mobility issues, and properly setting everything up to where you can handle aggression without being crushed will be very difficult for most players at all levels.

In many ways, mech will always be more difficult than bio, the difficulty is just "different".


I agree. I asked because I think Mech will always be the more difficult play style.


It will be, but at least we would not be held to the same script.

Part of the reason why tvp is so awful right now is that protoss received help from the WOL phase while w'ere still stuck there.
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So could we get an idea of what you guys are thinking?
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Posts: 186
That is what they are thinking and excuse me for being rude but this is utterly foolish of blizzard. The only buff that could be considered necessary IMO is the overseer speed buff. The idea that slightly infuriates me is that blizzard thinks that by giving terran air units FREE 3/3 if they play mech for a smooth and easy transition is some how a buff to mech itself. Already in HOTS as both a terran and zerg player i've seen the power of the free +3 armor on terran air after playing mech. I have played tons of games TvZ where i play mech and transition into bcs raven thor viking and the zerg basically has 0 chance, and on the other side of that i've played quite a bit of ZvT also. There have been games where i will max out on corruptor roach hydra infestor multiple times trying to defeat a super late game terran air army and it feels almost impossible. As for TvP, I feel these changes will have absolutely 0 impact on the match up itself because as stated earlier buffing air is not buffing mech. I would just like to know why mech is 3 times the cost of bio yet bio trades more efficiently in almost every situation vP. Obviously any terran can play mech if they want to but making it a truly viable tech path vP would completely rejuvenate the match up.
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Posts: 7,817
Gonna try out he map more today.

Can we please buff toss harassment? :D
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Posts: 25
For mech TvP how about a small EMP on the siege tank? or an upgrade for it so the immortal is still a viable counter against fast pushes?

this also worked for the mines renember.
Still the TvZ mech is not solved then yet.

Also instead of buffing / nerfing units take a look at how prices differences can change things.
Edited by poepbuddy on 8/24/2013 6:04 PM PDT
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Posts: 12,166
For mech TvP how about a small EMP on the siege tank? or an upgrade for it so the immortal is still a viable counter against fast pushes?

this also worked for the mines renember.
Still the TvZ mech is not solved then yet.

Also instead of buffing / nerfing units take a look at how prices differences can change things.

This is a bad idea.

Immortals are a counter to tanks on the basis of Hardened Shields. Siege Tanks should destroy Immortals after hardened shields is removed, but not before.

While Hardened Shields are still up, Immortals should be incredibly tough for Siege Tanks to kill. This forces the use of Ghosts or other units to removed the Immortal's shields so that the Tank can focus them down.

The real problem is that Siege Tanks are simply not strong enough against armored units such as the unshielded Immortals themselves considering everything else that needs to be done for mech to overcome its mobility issues and all of the supply needed for workers and other compositional units that are required to deal with air-switches and the Protoss army on the ground.

Price changes, upgrade tweaks such as that being proposed, and other work-arounds are not going to fix mech's issues. You can't solve a problem by avoiding it.
Edited by TerranicII on 8/24/2013 6:59 PM PDT
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Posts: 75
!@#$ing terran over i see
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Posts: 7,817
Ok, So I'm in queue for the map right now, So I think I've a small break to right down my humble opinions

I recently saw the edited post regarding the reasoning behind these changes. First off, I'm not sure what you guys meant by "we have some idea of how much better mech will be". Is gthere something else in the works? Or is there not? Right now though, It sort of feels like we are being strung along.

The last paragraph perturbed me quite a bit though. It seems that this buff is not really made with mech in mind, but "bio-mech" instead. Which here means add hellbats, which kind of feels-well, slightly insulting. It seems that you guys just want us to build factories in tvp just so we can make the equivalent of a fire bat in a bio comp. To which I ask, why is the factory a necessity? Why not just remove the damn thing, if over half of the other units are just going to be ignored?

I know this is not the greatest way to start a balance suggestion or some amount of discourse, but I just wanted to mention that.

Now, onto my thoughts of Bio-Bat.

We have seen Bio bat in some games (Mostly Innovation's) that center around hellbat-marauder. IN fact, Day9 Did a few nice pieces back in May i believe. In does seem strong in timing attacks, but as a late game transition it seems shaky.

Innovation in those showcases showed us some nice two base timing attacks that lined up with the more conventional timing attacks. That is, strike at 9-13, do some damage, and then proceed to drop and deny tech. However, as the game progressed and the protoss player climbed the tech tree, we saw hellbats being replaced by marines (and eventually ghosts).

The main reasons it seems? That late game tech toss has is abundant with splash. Hellbats, being low range and slow, don't stand up terrifically well to aoe (which toss has in abundance). So they usually melt before they can be used to tank or dish damage to zealots. They don't split well, don't dodge storms, and get zoned by collosi pretty well.

Bio right now relies on its mobility to win these battles. The hellbat seems ill equipped to fill any sort of hole due to its mobility limitations.

Right now, The ultimate bio comp seems to be ghost-viking-marauder-medivac-raven.. Ghosts seem to fill holes much better than the hellbat does (zealot counts come to mind) due to their ranged attack, solid +light dps, and the utility of emp and snipe.

Trying to divert resources and time to getting a "hellbat-transition" up seems foolhardy. Considering the Ghost preforms the duties of the hellbat much better and then some.

Why exactly would one divert resources (And hundreds amount of gas) into throwing down three or four factories, and researching blue flame, only to squander it later? One could use that capital to accumulate ghosts instead!

Furthermore, we're still playing bio, and there has been overwhelming feedback that this games needs variety

Mech has the tools, it just needs some tweaks.

Imho, the best way to give terran a chance in the late game is to give them a choice-be super aggro and play for the mid game, or try to balance aggression with preparation for the late game with mech.
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