Tanking With a Vengeance

Tanking With a Vengeance

A very nice paladin player asked me recently about Vengeance. She had concerns about the mechanic, which made me realize that we haven’t done the best job of explaining to players exactly what Vengeance is supposed to accomplish.

Vengeance is a new passive ability gained by choosing one of the tanking talent trees: Protection for warriors and paladins, Blood for death knights, or Feral for druids. When a tank with one of these talent specs takes damage, she gains an attack power bonus based on the damage taken. This bonus can’t exceed 10% of her health.

Vengeance was designed for a single purpose, which is to make sure tank threat scales as other players improve their gear. Imagine a raid of reasonably geared level-85 characters. In the absence of Vengeance, the tank might generate about 50% of the damage of a DPS character. With the tank’s threat modifiers this should be sufficient for her to generate enough threat to keep her targets stuck to her (unless something unusual is going on in the encounter). The problem is that in later tiers the mages and rogues in the raid accumulate gear that continues to increase their damage, while the tank chooses gear that increases her survivability. Tanks will pick up some threat stats along the way, but as their survival is almost always a necessary condition for victory, they choose gear accordingly. In later tiers, instead of doing 50% of the damage of a DPS class, the tank might start to slip to 30% or less of a DPS character's damage. Now threat becomes an issue. Threat needs to be an important part of the game -- I’ll try to explain why we think so in a future blog. However, it isn’t our design intent for threat generation to get much harder in the third tier of content relative to the first.

So that’s what Vengeance is supposed to be. Here is what it’s not supposed to be. Vengeance is not supposed to solve the threat problem completely. A tank shouldn’t be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest. Vengeance isn’t a replacement for the tank generating enough initial threat to get the targets to stick to her. She shouldn’t need to rely on Vengeance in the first six seconds of combat. It’s there to prevent the warlock from slowly creeping up on her threat in the middle of the fight. (If this has never happened to your raid, it’s possible that the huge threat transfer potential of the rogue Tricks of the Trade and hunter Misdirection masked how dicey threat really was for you, but those abilities were redesigned for Cataclysm.) In fact, you shouldn’t need Vengeance at all in the first couple of tiers of Cataclysm content. If a lucky dodge streak causes Vengeance to fall off, and that means that you can’t generate enough threat, then either our numbers aren’t tuned correctly, or you need to L2tank.

Vengeance also isn’t supposed to make you scared to attack a tank in PvP. Tanks have enough benefits in PvP, such as being hard to kill and control, especially in Cataclysm when Rated Battlegrounds provide them with a role where they can defend flags or towers. Players generally don’t hit hard enough to trigger the full effect of Vengeance, unless they are all ganging up on one tank, at which point someone in the group should have the ability to dispel it (Vengeance is treated as an Enrage effect for dispel purposes).

Vengeance is a new mechanic, and like many design changes, it may take some tweaking to get right. Maybe it takes too long to stack up or falls off too easily. Maybe it does too much of the tank’s job for her and ends up producing a generation of lazy tanks. Threat is a tricky thing to balance. If it’s too easy to maintain, then the tank isn’t having fun. If it’s too hard to maintain, then nobody is having fun.

Believe it or not, we want tanking to be fun.

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the Lead Systems Designer for World of Warcraft and once killed a dinosaur with a spreadsheet.

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Comments (458)

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Blackriver
Deathwing
Blackriver
12/5/2010
@Mastérhernán: Are you joking lol? Do you know what "Tank and spank" means? I'll admit with the 30% buff ICC is (mostly) really easy, but try to have everyone stand in the same spot and just DPS/heal/tank for the whole fight on say, Sindragosa, or Putricide, or Blood Princes, or even Marrowgar. Sure things might be mostly easy for the tank but there's really an assload of things to watch for in a lot of those fights.
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Arcata
Skywall
Arcata
12/6/2010
@Blackriver: I didn't tank much in ICC, but Putricide was the most fun for me to try tanking. We never killed him(pugs) but it was amusing.

I have to maintain aggro on the boss, not stand in stuff, move him out of stuff constantly or the melee suffers(gas flasks) and p3 with the tank swap just made it even more interesting.

Unfortunately a lot of the fail on that fight is people not looking where they're going or where anything is :(
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Mastérhernán
Alleria
Mastérhernán
12/6/2010
@Blackriver: Marrowgar... boring! Deathwhisper... fun in Phase 1, boring in Phase 2. Gunship... boring! Saurfang... boring! Festergut... Zzzz. Rotface... boring for the tank that is NOT running around. Blood-Queen... /sleep. Dreamwalker is boring with 2 tanks. Single tank is where the fun is at. Even LK Phase 1 is boring! I repeat, more than half the encounters in ICC are boring. And that is why I watch a movie or a show on my second monitor.
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Mastérhernán
Alleria
Mastérhernán
12/6/2010
@Gorbax: Putricide is fun! Plus, he always has good news! :)
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Novarastus
Area 52
Novarastus
12/6/2010
@Mastérhernán: Tank heroic LK and let me know how bored you are.
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Venoma
Nazjatar
Venoma
12/5/2010
Give tanks the ability to cap max dmg on the dps crowd during a fight.
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Shero
Greymane
Shero
12/5/2010
@Venoma: that's an interesting thought - I was thinking something along the lines of a slight debuff until the tank 'weakens' the boss somehow allowing full dps to get through
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Gorbax
Blade's Edge
Gorbax
12/5/2010
@Shero: you mean like all the below 20% abilities that DPS have?
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Shero
Greymane
Shero
12/5/2010
@Gorbax: no that would be far too late in the fight - something along the lines of if you hit a mob before the tank puts up the debuff on the mob then you take a dps penalty for 5 secs.
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Allupinthis
Draka
Allupinthis
12/5/2010
Win.
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Shero
Greymane
Shero
12/4/2010
First off, GS thanks for taking the time to discuss this with us. I think linking threat generation to a tank's health is a clever solution to the problem. As a warrior tank I am a bit worried. I have had several issues 'getting mobs to stick to me' and many other players who have never played prot war have commented to me about it. Have you ever thought about introducing a mechanic that will encourage dps to keep it in their pants for 2-3 seconds? Those of us who are having issues end up having to yell at other people in our groups and that is just not fun for anyone. I am doubly concerned because the gear gap between some players and others has really widened in recent months. I am not an overly geared tank and that is probably why I have more issues than others with threat gen. However, when I dutifully queue up for random 5 man heroics I regularly get paired up with dps with high end gear. I don't know that vengeance will deal with this problem and it seems that we have two blizz mechanics working against each other. The random pug finder puts us with high end peeps to help us out and the buff only helps us if we have gear that is equivalent to those we are with. This all results in frustration for all, much yelling and arguing about people not telling others how to play their class, me dropping groups as a tank, getting the quitter debuff, and the other five people wasting their time waiting for another tank (probably for 15 mins) and all the while them hoping its not another warrior who just got 'shafted with cata' (their words not mine).
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Arktisch
Balnazzar
Arktisch
12/4/2010
@Shero: I know warrior tanking is hard now, a friend of mine rolls a warrior tank and has trouble with threat, especially when I'm dpsing. But think of it this way, when Cata hits and you get geared up, you'll 160k+ hp with Vengeance thats 16k+ extra attack power during raids, your threat issues should be solved as long as you do your proper attacks, the day of tank reckoning is at hand!
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Gorbax
Blade's Edge
Gorbax
12/5/2010
@Arktisch: Yes Raid tanking will be fine, but what about when I "dutifully queue up for random 5 man heroics" ? While vengeance does help out there is it going to be enough? As I understand, in 5 mans it will be rare that you will get the full 10% of your health pool in AP. That's what's happening now. I don't get the full 10% of my health pool in heroics. In the begining of Cata this won't be a problem but towards the later tiers wwill it crop up again? We can only wait and see.
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Topanga
Sisters of Elune
Topanga
12/4/2010
from what Lancealot is saying... then either blizzards numbers aren’t tuned correctly, or he needs to L2tank.

my warrior i do fine with in all places i even feel i am over geared for even the raids at this point, the only time i have issues with agro is with in the first 3 sec. and that is fix simply by yelling at the group to hold back for a count of 3 then start. at this time that is only in the blood council when i have to grab the two guys
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Trîstan
Barthilas
Trîstan
12/4/2010
@Topanga: You are partly right here Topanga. Firstly Blizzard has greatly made threat rather difficult for all classes, there has been a serious drop in threat generation. However! It has not made it unmanageable, to be honest blizzard has done a great job and separated the boys from the men...or the girls from the women :) but on Lancealot's point, Caster DPS at the moment is just overly ridiculous. On my mage I can 3 shot a tank with 50k hp with relative ease.
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Venoma
Nazjatar
Venoma
12/5/2010
@Trîstan: Thanks for that, you are 100% correct. My greatest fear as a Horde tank is meeting an Alli caster in the middle of nowhere. Scares me more than Arthas, lol.
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Azruk
Shadowsong
Azruk
12/4/2010
Honestly I'm having no problem tanking. Some dpser's in my groups may pull aggro off me but i know enough to look at what mobs they're hitting and start building aggro on them before they take the threat to begin with. And it's not the much harder in raids. i can grab w/e i need to tank without a hitch and hold it. I like the idea of vengeance and if people are having issues with it, maybe it should scale to increase the amount of threat you generate up to a max of 10%. The biggest issue i can see with that is that it would make tanking easy-mode.
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Zookeeper
Turalyon
Zookeeper
12/4/2010
Vengeance seems fine to me. If people are worried about being over geared for content, resulting in mitigation negatively effecting vengeance/threat build up, consider wearing some dps gear? Since Defense capping is done through talents and not gear, why not mix in some straight dps items and hold threat on every mob while topping the meters? I've been having a lot of fun running dungeons as a pally in all ret gear except for a shield and one hander and owning the meters.
As the content gets tougher the mindset changes. CC comes into play and aoe/burst is diminished. Imagine a BC tank running into heroic shadow labs, pulling half the room and then every dps opens up with long cd's, trinkets and aoe... (crazy right?) It happens on almost every pull in WotLK dungeons. Reversing this psychology for cata will be pretty tough, but ultimately more fun.
Druids put all their mitigation eggs in one basket and I'm not a number cruncher, but I would imagine that druids get physically hit the least of any tank class due to higher dodge. That being said, I've never had trouble with vengeance falling off. I understand people wanting stats that help them to survive to also help them thrive, but do any tanks gem/enchant for avoidance? I always thought avoidance was something that we got on our gear and didn't think about while we stacked stam in every way possible. Stam directly influences the amount of vengeance we can amass... doesn't it?
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Venoma
Nazjatar
Venoma
12/5/2010
@Zookeeper: I have been thinking the same thing re DPS gear. Great post, ty.
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Lancealot
Kilrogg
Lancealot
12/4/2010
You know another thing. I use to use taunt when it was necessary... Now I have to use taunt like every 5 seconds the single taunt for paladins is a peace of dung now since it does no holy damage and does not keep threat afterwards. Good job on that one you noobs!
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Lancealot
Kilrogg
Lancealot
12/4/2010
And damn Ghostcrawler... Right now every magic damager is out of control. You gave DPS such high HP pools they dont care if they start off with a 20k hit.
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Arcata
Skywall
Arcata
12/6/2010
@Lancealot: That will change when the mobs hit for 50k.

I said HIT, not CRIT. Yeah, the dps is gonna get creamed.
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Raptorheals
Demon Soul
Raptorheals
12/6/2010
@Lancealot: @Lancealot: yea kinda sucks that especially new tanks are having hp beat out by dps, having crazy high hp used to be what set tanks apart, now i see 6k gs dps basically tanking cause mobs are taking 6-10 hits to kill them instead of the 1-3 hits, you'd never see dps risking aggro when they got 2 shotted, it helped make them more careful
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Lancealot
Kilrogg
Lancealot
12/4/2010
Also forgot to mention Ghostcrawler how Backwards your stupid Vengances is. First and formost if a low geared tank can out threat a Geared tank Vengances is broken. The reason this happens is because VENGANCE IS SO broken it isnt even funny. In order to get it you have take damage... well a low geared tank will be taking huge hits so 30% of lets say 20k hit on a low geared tank is a hella big threat increase compared to 30% on a well geared tank who gets hit for 10k.

This alone breaks Vengeance.
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Xcream
Executus
Xcream
12/4/2010
@Lancealot: I doubt you're raid will make it if you have an already low geared tank taking 20k hits compared to a high geared tank taking 10k hits, just saying lol
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Xcream
Executus
Xcream
12/4/2010
@Xcream: also being said, vengeance caps at 10% the tank's maximum health
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Lancealot
Kilrogg
Lancealot
12/4/2010
Tank threat is horrible. Ghostcrawler right now you guys F'ed up big.
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Venoma
Nazjatar
Venoma
12/5/2010
@Lancealot: looks to me like you reallu need a job at Blizz development since you obviously know a ton more than the game developers <sarcasm>
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Qùest
Azgalor
Qùest
12/5/2010
@Lancealot: Read what the spell actually does, and read the changes to block. ALL tanks will be taking damage. YOUR inability to add up how few hits its going to take to cap out vengeance and how it obviously is going to scale is YOUR f-up, not theirs. Its a good balance tool and it isnt the source of your obvious tanking issues.
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Raptorheals
Demon Soul
Raptorheals
12/6/2010
@Lancealot: yea especially warr tanking, i went from only losing threat to 6k locks when i was 4k gs, to 5k gs and losing threat to a hunters PET, first time ever losing threat to a pet was after 4.0 patch came out, almost made me cry, lolz
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This is just going to make the DPS pay attention again. No more AoE spam in heroics that made them mundane and boring. It also means.... no cooldowns at the start of a fight? What? You mean 5 sunders all over again? I like this idea. I fully endorse Vengeance.
DPS have alot of things they need to stack up (Combo points, Holy Power, DoTs, other debuffs) to get their DPS rolling. It shouldn't be too big of an issue.
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Hemnes
Sisters of Elune
Hemnes
12/3/2010
@Râhl: Making the DPS pay attention is one thing...but there's a big difference between "whoa, I just had a string of crits...better back off" and "better stick to white damage...every time I heroic strike, I take peel a mob off the tank". Consider this - what makes DPSing *fun* for most people? I've been on that side of the house before, and I know that putting up big numbers and being competitive is pretty compelling. I'd want to rev up that DPS engine and just let loose with my full potential - not feel like I'm constantly having to hold back from my full potential, just to keep from pulling trash mobs off the tank. Besides, I'd think that most groups would prefer to clear out those trash packs quickly so that they can get to the meaty bits that are boss fights. I know I don't look forward to clearing the Valkyrs in ICC week after week...it's Arthas that I'm there for.
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Gorbax
Blade's Edge
Gorbax
12/4/2010
@Sindridae: The "putting up large numbers" game is still there for the DPS. They just have another aspect to it. Put up the largest numbers you can...without pulling agro. This was part of the game in vanilla and BC but the devs decided that in LK that part of the game was as important. Now they have changed their minds. My question to the devs would be why the change of minds?
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Venoma
Nazjatar
Venoma
12/5/2010
@Sindridae: right on, and the same DPS who need to be on the top of the Recount list after a dungeon are the first ones to trash-talk the tank when threat becomes an issue.
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Raptorheals
Demon Soul
Raptorheals
12/6/2010
@Gorbax: yea i started playing bc and you would let rogue stun, then mage would sheep, and then tank pulled the 3 mobs that where left and try not to break the sheep/stun with aoe"thunderclap for me"
then when lk came out all i have done since is pull 1-2 groups, spam thunderclap and cleave and hope healer is paying attention, then they nerfed thunderclap with a rediculously long cd....
and most mobs are immune to sheep/stun in lk, i think more people would be prone to play like they used to in vinilla if their old tricks WORKED STILL, i was in toc raid as a ele shammy and saw that the druid is considered an "elemental" so i thought "yay i can use bind elemental and group will have 1 less class to worry about till rest are dead", epic fail bind elemental didn't work on him, i try using it on elementals out in different world area's and it doesn't work on them either, out of all things considered "elemental" it only works on 1/5 of them
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Exoblade
Blackrock
Exoblade
12/3/2010
I like the concept of vengeance and hope it works but atm running heroic's is painful, being out geared for it means i take way less damage and vengeance never stacks, i know it will work better it cata but what happens when you out gear cata heroics too?
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Dugen
Kil'jaeden
Dugen
12/3/2010
I understand why having damage and threat output scale with health is a good idea. I don't understand why having damage output and threat lower at the start of a fight or if you aren't being hit is a good idea.

With 3.0 tanks got the kind of snap threat that only Paladins had previously. Now, with 4.0 you've made threat appropriate but only once vengeance has built up. Before it has, threat is weak in comparison to DPS and it remains weak if you can't get the mobs to hit you. This makes tanking... "harder" is not the right word, but I'll say a lot more frustrating. DPS who are geared better than the tank or simply front load their dps make tanks have to scramble or look bad. It would be like if I had a tanking ability that could halve someones dps but give me all the threat that they would have generated. Giving one person the ability to do their job well at the expense of someone else is bad design. It's it's not fair, its not fun and it mostly causes grief and animosity.

For some specs of some classes, DPS ramps up slowly so threat ramping up slowly isn't an issue, but a lot of them can, and do, front load dps, especially on trash by using longer cooldown high dps abilities first since they cool down between fights.

I'm also a bit put off by the comment: "A tank shouldn’t be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest." The implication seems to be that those of us that are complaining that threat is broken right now are whining because we can't just afk tank. That's a bit rude. There are real issues with the way threat works right now and they make tanking much more annoying.

For a solution, I'd prefer to see vengeance permanent but if that would cause issues, I'd be satisfied if it simply decayed much much slower, so that after the first pull in an instance, it would never dip below a few percent of it's maximum as long as you were actively tanking at a good pace. For a good benchmark: If I never lose more that half of my vengeance buff in Culling of Strat when escorting Arthas, I'll be happy.
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Gorbax
Blade's Edge
Gorbax
12/3/2010
@Dugen: A lot of your frustration is due to how DPS are currently playing. I know on my shaman I front load DPS and it's because I'm not concerned that whatever I'm hitting will kill me. When the DPS are concerned that they might die if they pull aggro then they will stop front loading DPS. As he said the intent isn't for players (DPS included) to not have to worry about agro. We should have to worry about it. The mechanic doesn't need to change to fix your problem...player behavior needs to change.
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Urikslargda
Borean Tundra
Urikslargda
12/3/2010
@Gorbax: So, basically, we're going to be forced to ask DPS to not use their cooldowns when clearing trash at all, or wait until the mobs are almost dead? You may be right, but it sounds like a surefire recipe for pain to me.
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Kamilah
Arthas
Kamilah
12/4/2010
@Urikslargda, @Gobarx: No, you can always let the DPS do their thing, including those that brag, and once they get their aggro to 100%, let the mob get to them and kill 'em all. I shouldn't have to fight for aggro with a dps. Casters don't tank. You know, I have never understood why DPS classes are so critical of tanks? They want to tell you what to do, how to do it, and when to do it, and not in an educational way. There is always a dps in every random I do per day, that wants to: "Well your HP is a lil low, and so is your gs. I can tank this. Do you have an offspec?"