Tanking With a Vengeance

A very nice paladin player asked me recently about Vengeance. She had concerns about the mechanic, which made me realize that we haven’t done the best job of explaining to players exactly what Vengeance is supposed to accomplish.
Vengeance is a new passive ability gained by choosing one of the tanking talent trees: Protection for warriors and paladins, Blood for death knights, or Feral for druids. When a tank with one of these talent specs takes damage, she gains an attack power bonus based on the damage taken. This bonus can’t exceed 10% of her health.
Vengeance was designed for a single purpose, which is to make sure tank threat scales as other players improve their gear. Imagine a raid of reasonably geared level-85 characters. In the absence of Vengeance, the tank might generate about 50% of the damage of a DPS character. With the tank’s threat modifiers this should be sufficient for her to generate enough threat to keep her targets stuck to her (unless something unusual is going on in the encounter). The problem is that in later tiers the mages and rogues in the raid accumulate gear that continues to increase their damage, while the tank chooses gear that increases her survivability. Tanks will pick up some threat stats along the way, but as their survival is almost always a necessary condition for victory, they choose gear accordingly. In later tiers, instead of doing 50% of the damage of a DPS class, the tank might start to slip to 30% or less of a DPS character's damage. Now threat becomes an issue. Threat needs to be an important part of the game -- I’ll try to explain why we think so in a future blog. However, it isn’t our design intent for threat generation to get much harder in the third tier of content relative to the first.
So that’s what Vengeance is supposed to be. Here is what it’s not supposed to be. Vengeance is not supposed to solve the threat problem completely. A tank shouldn’t be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest. Vengeance isn’t a replacement for the tank generating enough initial threat to get the targets to stick to her. She shouldn’t need to rely on Vengeance in the first six seconds of combat. It’s there to prevent the warlock from slowly creeping up on her threat in the middle of the fight. (If this has never happened to your raid, it’s possible that the huge threat transfer potential of the rogue Tricks of the Trade and hunter Misdirection masked how dicey threat really was for you, but those abilities were redesigned for Cataclysm.) In fact, you shouldn’t need Vengeance at all in the first couple of tiers of Cataclysm content. If a lucky dodge streak causes Vengeance to fall off, and that means that you can’t generate enough threat, then either our numbers aren’t tuned correctly, or you need to L2tank.
Vengeance also isn’t supposed to make you scared to attack a tank in PvP. Tanks have enough benefits in PvP, such as being hard to kill and control, especially in Cataclysm when Rated Battlegrounds provide them with a role where they can defend flags or towers. Players generally don’t hit hard enough to trigger the full effect of Vengeance, unless they are all ganging up on one tank, at which point someone in the group should have the ability to dispel it (Vengeance is treated as an Enrage effect for dispel purposes).
Vengeance is a new mechanic, and like many design changes, it may take some tweaking to get right. Maybe it takes too long to stack up or falls off too easily. Maybe it does too much of the tank’s job for her and ends up producing a generation of lazy tanks. Threat is a tricky thing to balance. If it’s too easy to maintain, then the tank isn’t having fun. If it’s too hard to maintain, then nobody is having fun.
Believe it or not, we want tanking to be fun.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the Lead Systems Designer for World of Warcraft and once killed a dinosaur with a spreadsheet.

Deathwing
Skywall
I have to maintain aggro on the boss, not stand in stuff, move him out of stuff constantly or the melee suffers(gas flasks) and p3 with the tank swap just made it even more interesting.
Unfortunately a lot of the fail on that fight is people not looking where they're going or where anything is :(
Alleria
Alleria
Area 52
Nazjatar
Greymane
Blade's Edge
Greymane
Draka
Greymane
Balnazzar
Blade's Edge
Sisters of Elune
my warrior i do fine with in all places i even feel i am over geared for even the raids at this point, the only time i have issues with agro is with in the first 3 sec. and that is fix simply by yelling at the group to hold back for a count of 3 then start. at this time that is only in the blood council when i have to grab the two guys
Barthilas
Nazjatar
Shadowsong
Turalyon
As the content gets tougher the mindset changes. CC comes into play and aoe/burst is diminished. Imagine a BC tank running into heroic shadow labs, pulling half the room and then every dps opens up with long cd's, trinkets and aoe... (crazy right?) It happens on almost every pull in WotLK dungeons. Reversing this psychology for cata will be pretty tough, but ultimately more fun.
Druids put all their mitigation eggs in one basket and I'm not a number cruncher, but I would imagine that druids get physically hit the least of any tank class due to higher dodge. That being said, I've never had trouble with vengeance falling off. I understand people wanting stats that help them to survive to also help them thrive, but do any tanks gem/enchant for avoidance? I always thought avoidance was something that we got on our gear and didn't think about while we stacked stam in every way possible. Stam directly influences the amount of vengeance we can amass... doesn't it?
Nazjatar
Kilrogg
Kilrogg
Skywall
I said HIT, not CRIT. Yeah, the dps is gonna get creamed.
Demon Soul
Kilrogg
This alone breaks Vengeance.
Executus
Executus
Kilrogg
Nazjatar
Azgalor
Demon Soul
Draka
DPS have alot of things they need to stack up (Combo points, Holy Power, DoTs, other debuffs) to get their DPS rolling. It shouldn't be too big of an issue.
Sisters of Elune
Blade's Edge
Nazjatar
Demon Soul
then when lk came out all i have done since is pull 1-2 groups, spam thunderclap and cleave and hope healer is paying attention, then they nerfed thunderclap with a rediculously long cd....
and most mobs are immune to sheep/stun in lk, i think more people would be prone to play like they used to in vinilla if their old tricks WORKED STILL, i was in toc raid as a ele shammy and saw that the druid is considered an "elemental" so i thought "yay i can use bind elemental and group will have 1 less class to worry about till rest are dead", epic fail bind elemental didn't work on him, i try using it on elementals out in different world area's and it doesn't work on them either, out of all things considered "elemental" it only works on 1/5 of them
Blackrock
Kil'jaeden
With 3.0 tanks got the kind of snap threat that only Paladins had previously. Now, with 4.0 you've made threat appropriate but only once vengeance has built up. Before it has, threat is weak in comparison to DPS and it remains weak if you can't get the mobs to hit you. This makes tanking... "harder" is not the right word, but I'll say a lot more frustrating. DPS who are geared better than the tank or simply front load their dps make tanks have to scramble or look bad. It would be like if I had a tanking ability that could halve someones dps but give me all the threat that they would have generated. Giving one person the ability to do their job well at the expense of someone else is bad design. It's it's not fair, its not fun and it mostly causes grief and animosity.
For some specs of some classes, DPS ramps up slowly so threat ramping up slowly isn't an issue, but a lot of them can, and do, front load dps, especially on trash by using longer cooldown high dps abilities first since they cool down between fights.
I'm also a bit put off by the comment: "A tank shouldn’t be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest." The implication seems to be that those of us that are complaining that threat is broken right now are whining because we can't just afk tank. That's a bit rude. There are real issues with the way threat works right now and they make tanking much more annoying.
For a solution, I'd prefer to see vengeance permanent but if that would cause issues, I'd be satisfied if it simply decayed much much slower, so that after the first pull in an instance, it would never dip below a few percent of it's maximum as long as you were actively tanking at a good pace. For a good benchmark: If I never lose more that half of my vengeance buff in Culling of Strat when escorting Arthas, I'll be happy.
Blade's Edge
Borean Tundra
Arthas