Tanking With a Vengeance

Tanking With a Vengeance

A very nice paladin player asked me recently about Vengeance. She had concerns about the mechanic, which made me realize that we haven’t done the best job of explaining to players exactly what Vengeance is supposed to accomplish.

Vengeance is a new passive ability gained by choosing one of the tanking talent trees: Protection for warriors and paladins, Blood for death knights, or Feral for druids. When a tank with one of these talent specs takes damage, she gains an attack power bonus based on the damage taken. This bonus can’t exceed 10% of her health.

Vengeance was designed for a single purpose, which is to make sure tank threat scales as other players improve their gear. Imagine a raid of reasonably geared level-85 characters. In the absence of Vengeance, the tank might generate about 50% of the damage of a DPS character. With the tank’s threat modifiers this should be sufficient for her to generate enough threat to keep her targets stuck to her (unless something unusual is going on in the encounter). The problem is that in later tiers the mages and rogues in the raid accumulate gear that continues to increase their damage, while the tank chooses gear that increases her survivability. Tanks will pick up some threat stats along the way, but as their survival is almost always a necessary condition for victory, they choose gear accordingly. In later tiers, instead of doing 50% of the damage of a DPS class, the tank might start to slip to 30% or less of a DPS character's damage. Now threat becomes an issue. Threat needs to be an important part of the game -- I’ll try to explain why we think so in a future blog. However, it isn’t our design intent for threat generation to get much harder in the third tier of content relative to the first.

So that’s what Vengeance is supposed to be. Here is what it’s not supposed to be. Vengeance is not supposed to solve the threat problem completely. A tank shouldn’t be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest. Vengeance isn’t a replacement for the tank generating enough initial threat to get the targets to stick to her. She shouldn’t need to rely on Vengeance in the first six seconds of combat. It’s there to prevent the warlock from slowly creeping up on her threat in the middle of the fight. (If this has never happened to your raid, it’s possible that the huge threat transfer potential of the rogue Tricks of the Trade and hunter Misdirection masked how dicey threat really was for you, but those abilities were redesigned for Cataclysm.) In fact, you shouldn’t need Vengeance at all in the first couple of tiers of Cataclysm content. If a lucky dodge streak causes Vengeance to fall off, and that means that you can’t generate enough threat, then either our numbers aren’t tuned correctly, or you need to L2tank.

Vengeance also isn’t supposed to make you scared to attack a tank in PvP. Tanks have enough benefits in PvP, such as being hard to kill and control, especially in Cataclysm when Rated Battlegrounds provide them with a role where they can defend flags or towers. Players generally don’t hit hard enough to trigger the full effect of Vengeance, unless they are all ganging up on one tank, at which point someone in the group should have the ability to dispel it (Vengeance is treated as an Enrage effect for dispel purposes).

Vengeance is a new mechanic, and like many design changes, it may take some tweaking to get right. Maybe it takes too long to stack up or falls off too easily. Maybe it does too much of the tank’s job for her and ends up producing a generation of lazy tanks. Threat is a tricky thing to balance. If it’s too easy to maintain, then the tank isn’t having fun. If it’s too hard to maintain, then nobody is having fun.

Believe it or not, we want tanking to be fun.

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the Lead Systems Designer for World of Warcraft and once killed a dinosaur with a spreadsheet.

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Comments (458)

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Rohtak
Area 52
Rohtak
12/1/2010
"Believe it or not, we want tanking to be fun."
Coulda fooled me...
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Danarin
Terokkar
Danarin
12/1/2010
I'm wondering if Vengeance will work as intented on fights where the tank either cannot or is not being attacked consistently. For example, in the Marrowgar fight when Marrowgar does his Bonestorm he is flying around the room and is still fairly easy for the ranged DPS to attack. However, the tank is not usually being attacked during this phase and is at a disadvantage for maintaining damage on the boss. After Bonestorm ends Vengeance is likely to either be completely worn off or close to worn off while DPS threat has fairly steadily increased. Have these types of fight mechanics been taken into account in the Vengeance decay rates?

Also, as mentioned earlier, this mechanic seems to reward soak tanking as opposed to avoidance tanking. Does Blizz have any thought on what may lead to pure stamina stacking at the expense of any avoidance stats not only being the norm but probably being considered essential for every tank?
We see some concerns from players about avoiding making Vengeance fall off. Vengeance currently loses 10% of its value every second when you are not being attacked, and 5% a second if you are being attacked (even if you avoid or absorb the damage). Obviously if you take damage then Vengeance won’t fall off at all. We went with 10 seconds because we thought that was a reasonable number that would discourage tanks from feeling like they were forced to engage in bizarre and not fun behavior. Imagine if Vengeance lasted for 30 or 60 seconds or more, then you might try to drag along a weak add to periodically hit you and keep the buff going. Alternately, maybe you’d get a slew of Prot specs in your raid all trying to keep Vengeance up all the time in order to do higher dps than they would have with a legit dps spec. Contrived perhaps, but those were the concerns -- you guys can be devious at finding clever uses of mechanics. :) That said, it’s easy to tweak if the fall off is too fast. Now it is true that avoids early in a fight will keep Vengeance from stacking up as quickly, but you shouldn’t need Vengeance in the first few seconds of a fight. We gave all tanks powerful attacks to generate burst threat, and Tricks of the Trade and Misdirect are also still great for establishing initial aggro – they just don’t make threat trivial to maintain through the entire fight as they did in Lich King. The mage also doesn’t need to pop Time Warp and Pyroblast on the first global cooldown of a boss fight.
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Dosvidaniya
Dragonmaw
Dosvidaniya
12/1/2010
@Zarhym: Don't take this the wrong way Zarhym, but the current "bizarre and not fun behavior" that people anticipate using involves running half naked through places you outgear in an attempt to keep your threat on par with dps. When I run 5 mans with friends in ICC gear, the frost DKs and warriors end up tanking while I just tag along. The amount of fluctuation is too high and it drops fast.
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Raecatta
The Venture Co
Raecatta
12/1/2010
@Dosvidaniya:
I have the same concerns currently, and I really hope that it won't end up being that way in Cata end game as well (though that still is quite a ways off). I can't imagine purposefully going into a fight missing gear so I can get hit more due to the buff falling off too frequently as the highest level of gear does not allow me to keep threat on par with my dps.
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Dreadnok
Bleeding Hollow
Dreadnok
12/2/2010
@Zarhym: Much better than "L2tank". Thanks for expanding on the point.
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Imriela
Bleeding Hollow
Imriela
12/1/2010
"and once killed a dinosaur with a spreadsheet."

Pics or it didn't happen :)
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Eldwenor
Argent Dawn
Eldwenor
12/1/2010
Just something that hasnt been though so far about the whole mechanic so far on this blog(mentionned once and poorly according to my CTRL-F).

Absorb: It might be just that insignificant but are you planning on something regarding a different way disc priest might affect the tanking and the initial aggro or are you satisfied with considering it as any other avoidance or mitigation mechanics? I suppose you could say dodging the first two attacks is pretty much the same but still, I am curious about why it hasn't been mentionned anywhere in the formula so far.
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Zerahiah
Ghostlands
Zerahiah
12/1/2010
I like this, thanks for the explanation!
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Lorinall
Greymane
Lorinall
12/1/2010
Thanks for the explanation, Ghostcrawler.

Now, about that moose....
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Quetzalcoatl
The Scryers
Quetzalcoatl
12/1/2010
I am not know...
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Rayneman
Vashj
Rayneman
12/1/2010
I'd say maybe make Vengeance 'stack' a little faster at the beginning.
I keep grouping with ignorant DPS that blow all their CDs the second a pull starts and they die. They blame it on me, etc., etc.

Also, do you not want us to stack dodge anymore? Didn't you say that was one of the reasons you removed Defense?
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Honorix
Sargeras
Honorix
12/1/2010
@Rayneman: Well I have a solution to this, get less ignorant dps. Once upon a time a tank could say 'don't dps untill the mob gets to me and then count to 3' and nobody would even think to question it. Then came the rise of easy aoe tanking, and everyone (rightly, somewhat) assumed that as long as the tank got a swipe/thunderclap/conscecration off you could go nuts. Give it a month or so into cataclysm and hopefully most of the brighter players will realize that isn't the case, and the rest can enjoy the collection of axes, swords and other such pointy implements mobs will be lodging into their brains.
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Rayneman
Vashj
Rayneman
12/1/2010
@Honorix: My shecdule currently only allows me to do randoms for the time being, so I really don't have much of a choice but to group with them or suffer a 'timeout'. And I PRAY that that last bit of what you said comes true. I really do.
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Feliciahardy
Nesingwary
Feliciahardy
12/1/2010
@Rayneman: In the beta people where generaly responsible for their actions, if mistakes where made they would apologize, if some one couldn't cut it they would gracefully bow out. From my personal experience thats how expansions normally start out.
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Thorgrim
Doomhammer
Thorgrim
12/1/2010
I think you could fix some of the problems that might occur down the road with the buff falling off as avoidance increases in better gear, by not having the buff expire all at once - if it functioned in say 10 stacks, and the stacks only fell off one at a time as they expired, that avoidance streak would hurt a lot less.

You could avoid abuse of this by having the whole stack fall off when you exit combat.
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Rayneman
Vashj
Rayneman
12/1/2010
@Thorgrim: I really like for it to be something like this. And maybe with each dodge, a stack falls off so as not to be overpowered? Maybe stops stacking at say 15% of Health? Also maybe add a 'mini-Righteous Fury' in it to make sure threat stays?
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Crazymack
Antonidas
Crazymack
12/1/2010
/doublefacepalm why does this need to be addressed again?
people do far to much QQing about the game lately, or maybe
i just started to notice it all.
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Cathartik
Khaz'goroth
Cathartik
12/1/2010
Very interesting. Can't wait to tank some cata dungeons.
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Ailurus
Gorgonnash
Ailurus
12/1/2010
What's that? People aren't having fun? Guess you better nerf paladins s'more!
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Nexsus
Caelestrasz
Nexsus
12/1/2010
WOAH Back up there. "If a lucky dodge streak causes Vengeance to fall off, and that means that you can’t generate enough threat, then either our numbers aren’t tuned correctly, or you need to L2tank."

So your saying that if we so much as try to get some avoidance we are newbs...

Sounds like you don't know what your talking about.
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Honorix
Sargeras
Honorix
12/1/2010
@Nexsus: This. I love the concept of vengence, it gives tanks the threat scaling we've needed for a long time. However, in practice, because it's tied to our stamina, and as you point out, avoidence can actually be a detrement, we're back to stacking blue stam gems in all our sockets again. Is that the intention? Am I a noob for putting dodge gems on my warrior every now and again? It seems at odds with the philosphy of you wanting us to be concerned about healers mana when us actively trying to reduce the amount we need to be healed effectivly gimps us.

Is it not possible to somehow code a dodged or otherwise mitigated attack as effectively doing '0' damage, so it at least refreshes vengence and we can't end up screwing ourselves over?
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Jillettre
Darrowmere
Jillettre
12/1/2010
@Nexsus: Yeah, the lead systems designer for the fecking game doesn't know what he's talking about...
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Vaporeon
Stormrage
Vaporeon
12/1/2010
@Nexsus: He's saying you need to l2p if you losing a vengeance stack causes you to be incapable of generating enough threat. Hence the whole "Vengeance probably isn't necessary at the beginning of the xpack" thing he was talking about.
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Ganglati
Whisperwind
Ganglati
12/1/2010
@Nexsus: Everyone seems to gloss over the first part of that sentence, "then our numbers aren't tuned correctly." Getting some avoidance doesn't automatically make you a n00b ffs. Now, if 99% of tanks have no problems holding aggro despite a lucky dodge streak, then yeah, you need to l2tank. Besides, I'd imagine the gap between Vengeance with straight Stam gems versus Stam+Dodge/Parry in yellow and red slots at least is fairly minimal, though I don't know what tank health looks like at 85. If you stack avoidance to the detriment of your Stam, then yeah, it'll probably hurt your Vengeance, but I bet taking a balanced approach works out fine.
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Nexsus
Caelestrasz
Nexsus
12/1/2010
WOAH Back up there. "If a lucky dodge streak causes Vengeance to fall off, and that means that you can’t generate enough threat, then either our numbers aren’t tuned correctly, or you need to L2tank."

So your saying that if we so much as try to get some avoidance we are newbs...

Sounds like you don't know what your talking about.
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Powerbreed
Staghelm
Powerbreed
12/1/2010
well me myself find that cata, could be interesting. 1 palidins tree is well how to say it whacked i had to actually study it to try to get the best tank spec. and now they also took away points from pallies which in turn took away from our cap that is needed to tank and keep agro from the ever wary dps that cant control dps..lol now if u r icc kingslayer u will notice that some of the dps'ers have boosted like mad in dps and can pull off a tank in a sec if they dont keep it in check. i hope that the 5 lvls we will get help tanks get the agro back under control. without loosing our stam boost from gems and enchants
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Stigas
Illidan
Stigas
12/1/2010
Great explanation. Your reasoning seems fair as well. I think WotLK was a huge cushion for Tanks (in terms of threat) and groups as a whole. Toning down Tanks may shake the very comfortable couch we've been sitting on, but I have no doubts you'll do your best to keep it fun for everyone.

Difficulty is what keeps this game refreshing. Keep up the excellent work.
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Wolfquest
Lightbringer
Wolfquest
12/1/2010
Why is the tank a "SHE"
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Anafielle
Lightninghoof
Anafielle
12/1/2010
@Krymeariver: Either they're being PC about their pronouns... or because the person who asked the question at the Q&A was female.
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Nemhain
Terenas
Nemhain
12/1/2010
@Krymeariver: Why would the tank necessarily be a he? Group roles are not gender roles.
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Drimesse
Drak'thul
Drimesse
12/1/2010
im hate all u horde im going to raide u all by my self at lvl 80
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Anafielle
Lightninghoof
Anafielle
12/1/2010
To be honest, I should probably stop fighting and look at the silver lining to Vengeance in its current implementation. I CANNOT WAIT to build a strength set for farm fights! Screw tank gear, I'm going for DPS plate. I am drooling about the prospect of stacking Vengeance as high as possible while wearing the absolute minimum of tank gear. 150% extra Attack Power and DPS Plate gear? Yes, please! I should probably identify the fights with fire to stand in, too. Of course, this doesn't count for progression.... but boring old farm fights and old content? Damn straight! I'm wearing as much ret gear as possible and tank gear with the avoidance reforged away, into expertise, hit, or crit ...... oh man, I'm kind of excited now... the theorycrafting! The WOL DPS battles! The epeen! It sounds kind of fun. Completely against the spirit of the entire mechanic, but totally awesome nonetheless. I guess there's something exciting to look forward to!
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Riggnaros
Illidan
Riggnaros
12/1/2010
Vengeance and why its broken:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27750115440&sid=2000

^Sums it up best imo. Please adjust it so that threat is actually something that a tank needs to pay attention to after the first minute of the fight.

Ty
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Alida
Saurfang
Alida
12/1/2010
@Riggnaros:
Have you even read the article? Taken the thread you are refering to I take it you haven't...
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Tombstonex
Gnomeregan
Tombstonex
12/1/2010
I really doubt that GC plays a Hunter or he wouldn't let them get away with Murlocstalker T11! with his personality and Love of Nerfing Pallies would have to be a Warrior him self!
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Kalico
Sisters of Elune
Kalico
12/1/2010
A dino with a spreadsheet? I'm impressed.

Wonderful article, thanks for the clear explanation now!
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Zanatose
Jaedenar
Zanatose
12/1/2010
Nice about Vengeance, but what we all want to really know is: what class does GC play? I say Hunter due to the new ghostcrawler pet in Cata. :P
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Rayneman
Vashj
Rayneman
12/1/2010
@Zanatose: He has stated in a somewhat old thread that he plays a Warrior Tank. I don't know if that's current, but I'd say its most likely.
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Being a Tank in WoW for six years I am loving all the changes. Can't wait to see what I can do come level 85 raids.