Threat Needs to Matter

Threat Needs to Matter

A tank’s job is to protect the group. A big part of that is controlling the enemy. A big part of controlling the enemy is staying alive. Tanks have a lot of tools to stay alive, and mastering those is a major component of learning to play a tank. On the other hand, some of these tools are on long cooldowns, and on some encounters they are intended for use at specific moments in the fight. Furthermore, staying alive isn’t the sole responsibility of the tank, because there will always be one or more healers present whose job it is to keep the tank alive. As such, staying alive can’t be the only thing tanks have to focus on.

So, let’s back up a moment to controlling the enemy. “Control” includes things like positioning the boss, or doing specific things at specific times, such as swapping with an off tank. It also includes making sure the boss doesn’t attack anyone else. That’s where threat generation comes into play.

If threat generation is too easy then the entire risk of the encounter drops. Newsflash: we don’t actually want encounters to be easy. We want encounters to be fun, and for most players, that includes both rewards and risks.

We want tanks to care about the buttons they hit instead of just relying on auto-attacking to control their target. We don’t necessarily want very complicated tank DPS rotations, because as I mentioned above, tanks do have other things to keep track of. But we want their combat abilities to be engaging. Good tanks should be those who control, survive, and generate sufficient threat.

On the other hand, when threat is too hard to maintain, it can be exasperating. Tanks get understandably frustrated when the game is asking them to do something but not giving them the tools to do it. The non-tanks in the group also become frustrated, because they feel throttled. It’s one thing when overcoming the boss is challenging. It feels worse when you know that another player is standing in your way, keeping you from achieving your top performance.

We don’t usually want DPS classes to have to stop attacking in order to keep from generating too much threat. We do want players to pay attention. We don’t think it’s too much to ask for DPS and healers to wait a couple of GCDs for the tank to get the enemy under control -- we’re not asking for five stacks of Sunder Armor these days. What we really mean by proper threat management is knowing things like when it’s time to go all out, when it’s appropriate to use a threat-reducing cooldown, and most importantly, which is the right target to be attacking. I’m not trying to bash pugs here, but I am amazed at how often a nuker will pick a random target instead of the one being tanked, then blame the tank for not holding aggro (and then blame the healer when they die). In short, if threat is too easy, the game is boring. If threat is too difficult, the game is frustrating.

How then do you guys (and the developers!) know when threat is a problem? Here are some handy guidelines.

-- If a tank is trying to generate threat on a single target, and it runs off to kill a DPS class, that’s a problem.

-- If a tank is trying to generate area threat on a group, and the tanked things are running off to kill healers, that’s a problem.

-- If Vengeance falling off causes the tank to lose threat, that’s a problem.

These problems can have a couple of causes. It could be a problem we caused, meaning that even an expertly-played tank has low threat generation because our numbers are undertuned. Or it could be that only an expertly-played tank can generate threat because you’re asked to manage too many abilities. Or it could be that Vengeance is the only thing allowing you to generate enough threat because the size of the buff is masking low threat generation from your abilities. It could also be a problem you need to fix on your end: if someone is nuking or cleaving a random target on a group pull instead of assisting the tank, that’s not the tank’s fault.

Now, there are things we don’t like about threat as a mechanic. It’s fairly gamey as game mechanics go and we think there are probably better ways to communicate it to players. There are some mods that do a very credible job given the limited information we provide, but overall we’d like to present threat better since we’re asking you to take it seriously in the PvE game.

-Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft and the skipper of a very nice ship where they serve cute sandwiches with the crust removed. And gin.

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Luschia
Eredar
Luschia
7/5/2012
Back in BC, I remember the joys of finding that one damn good pally tank. They were nigh impossible to find at the time. And I had a druid tank who was complimented often because of the skill I had in keeping and holding aggro, even in overzealous dps groups. Those were the days that it took skill to play certain classes well. Made some good friends from it too.

Of interest, however, is how much the tanking changed since then into a no-brainer. I have my same druid leveled to 85 and it was a joke to tank on her, so much so that I got bored. So I leveled my DK to tank as well... equally boring. I'm one of those that have actually asked for dps to make it interesting (keep in mind I'm tanking with people I know) and laugh when the dps and heals die in an instance and I still down a boss (which is quite easy in many of the 5 mans on a DK). I find it sad that I have to make life miserable for my group in order to have any semblance of fun or to make it challenging for me. The fact is that right now it is far too easy to tank in Cataclysm. Druids have an abundance of abilities, which is nice, but I don't have to charge anything because of the AoE damage going out on group pulls anymore. I just DnD, Outbreak, Pestilence and blood boil while heart striking to my heart's content. And I really only need DnD and heart strike... On the druid, it's far easier, especially since changing the CD to 3 seconds. Anywho, I enjoy the challenge and miss it. And I'm with Odegar, I liked being a tank who stood above others... I miss it too. As a dps on my main, I really wish that threat gen meant more of having to watch your aggro from tanks. Omen threat meter? Don't need that anymore...
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Bricav
Sargeras
Bricav
7/25/2012
@Luschia: Couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo
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Odegar
Illidan
Odegar
4/19/2012
I remembered in Wrath when threat actually mattered and you could, at the very least, distinguish yourself from terrible tanks. Now some random yay-hoo in LFR can keep aggro off of any DPS in the world with an item level of 365. It makes perfect sense to make threat generation every bit as challenging as DPSing, so that a tank with equal gear to the dps has to put forth a moderate effort. I mean, terrible DPS can't survive long in raiding, so why can terrible tanks? It may sound petty, but I miss getting compliments in instances as a tank. Now I have to go as DPS to feel good about myself, lol.
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Meygaera
Dalaran
Meygaera
7/4/2012
@Odegar: Did BC never happen or something?
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Thaumato
Arygos
Thaumato
4/9/2012
I've noticed that there are a lot of overzealous dps who salivate over dpsing mobs with all coodlowns popped in the first nanosecond of a pull. Why not institute a debuff to dps that pull aggro that reduces their damage done by maybe 10-20% for 10 seconds? It would give a reason for dps to not pull aggro (other than the fear of dying, which in reality is not high because healers heal through a lot of things in fear of being blamed for failing). As it stands, if a dps pulls aggro the group mentality is that it's not the fault of the dps. Tanks right now are really forced to pick up the slack on any dps that decides to nuke a target before it's proper, and if the tank doesn't or is incapable due to inferior gear (or sometimes lack of skill/knowledge) then it's blamed on the tank. You cannot deny that there are people that underperform in all aspects of the game, however, it is an invalid argument that tanks are 100% of the time at fault for not holding aggro in all situations. I believe that giving dps a reason to fear pulling aggro is the key behind fostering cooperation between dps and tanks.
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Potluck
Cenarius
Potluck
2/24/2012
What I've noticed in LFD is that DPS tends to not wait for their tanks. I've seen overzealous DPS pull ahead and then use some aggro dump ability to shed the mobs off them, forgetting that the next on that list isn't usually the tank, but another DPS or even the healer.

I've also seen the other side of the coin where Tanks become overzealous and pull ahead of healers and DPS, not letting them either regain mana, rez a dead pet, etc. And then blame the group for being "fail".

This shouldn't be solely about tanks if you're going to discuss threat mechanics. You should look into social engineering if you want to fix most of the common issues.
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Meygaera
Dalaran
Meygaera
7/4/2012
@Potluck: I'm not sure this post is trying to address LFD. It seems more tuned for advanced players. Numerous times he mentions "expert" tank, etc.

This post is also addressing the fault of the developers for threat. Most times when there is a threat issue in LFD/LFR the fault is not with the developers; it's with the players.
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Korigoth
Alexstrasza
Korigoth
2/19/2012
Thing i hate most about dungeons is no matter how fast I pull theres always somebody that has to run ahead and pull packs for me even when im chain pulling everything. Imo everyone should play at least one tank so they can understand how frustrating the role can be at times, but dps meter maids never goin to change. Just sayin'
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Karmilla
Fenris
Karmilla
2/15/2012
I cant say any tank classes have it easier or harder than any other, on any given patch/instance/levelbracket, I can have issues (or none, as the case may be) tanking. The main frustraction I have being a tank is that people will pull, then laugh when I say that means they arent letting me do my job. Because according to many, my job is to "stand there and stay alive"... And even when I say "Thats not what lfg role Q says", they laugh. Its very frustrating. My job is aggro, and when you do my job, it makes me wanna quit said job...
/headdesk
Or is that just me?
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Korigoth
Alexstrasza
Korigoth
2/19/2012
@Karmilla: ^All dps read this. This is the reason there are no tanks and you wait 20 minutes for a heroic dungeon.
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Exekias
Drak'thul
Exekias
2/14/2012
Blood DK tanks are ridiculously easy to keep threat on. I wonder why they wrote this article.

remember... just spam rune strike in blood pres!
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Broolstoryco
Darkspear
Broolstoryco
2/17/2012
@Exekias: so THATS the epic secret nobody knows about!
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Gluto
Hydraxis
Gluto
2/9/2012
i never have a problem tanking because paladins have Righteous Fury which makes it seemingly impossible to loose threat as long as you make sure to damage all enemies in the mob even the smallest amount. this makes it very easy to tank since pally tanks got Hammer of the Righteous, Concecration, Holy Wrath, and are just generally awesome.
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Genroku
Bonechewer
Genroku
2/11/2012
@Gluto: i dont think you have a problem with threat gen because a while ago they buffed the threat gained from RF etc by something rediculous like 500%
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Scottishguy
Frostmourne
Scottishguy
9/14/2011
threats only a problem when u out gear the tank other than that, if your say raiding with a successful group and are all gearing up into a new tier, shouldnt be a problem.
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Plus
Scarlet Crusade
Plus
8/25/2011
eh they fixed threat for scrubs. so continue being bad, success is guaraunteed
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Scorgeerater
Altar of Storms
Scorgeerater
8/22/2011
you must save cd's for the boss fight most of the time
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Druagar
Illidan
Druagar
8/21/2011
dont suck at your class, manage your cds, watch your threat. .. . THERE ARE ADDONS FOR ALL OF THESE ISSUES!! Dont be a duma$$ and learn to play your class, if you pull off a tank, back off switch targets, and do w/e you can to get that add back to the tank. This was written because its simple, YOU SUCK AND DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY YOUR TOON!
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Shootingpain
Madoran
Shootingpain
8/21/2011
@Druagar: This is the kind of attitude that causes newbies, casual users, and even mid level players to avoid or dislike raiding - people like you. Being mean just gets you being disliked. Help people, don't yell at them, call names and downgrade them. Do you really think you've made a difference here or have you just damaged here? This article was simply about removing raid-wide threat management from the game and you took the opportunity (like I'm sure you do in dungeons) to complain, insult and tell people they suck. NOBODY, including you, was the best at their game the first few times they played. They do try to get better and there is a learning curve. Shame on you and players like you for being so intolerant.
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Leigestax
Alleria
Leigestax
8/22/2011
@Shootingpain: man dude you could be no further from the truth, i agree with you 100 %... another problem is hes an orc!!!! pwnd in yo face!!! OOOOOOOOOOOOOO fiiiiiiiist puuuuuump
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Liakan
Crushridge
Liakan
8/23/2011
@Shootingpain: /agree
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@Shootingpain: I've never screwed up when tanking, dpsing, or healing. Ever. I refuse to kowtow or cater towards morons that slow the group down or don't know how to hit 3 buttons in sequence over and over and over again. It's players like YOU that debase and downgrade the game causing it to be easier because you fail at everything you've ever done. I'd rather be disliked and know I didn't royally screw up than be /waved at constantly but wipe groups.

I guess I'm that rare breed of player that doesn't suck and refuses to put up with people that do.
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Redax
Shu'halo
Redax
8/25/2011
@Lisk: I was writing out a long lecture for "elitist jerks like you" when I realized that your gear was crap and that you have less than 1k achievement points at 85, a feat I thought impossible. You really have no right to insult 'baddies' to be honest. And @Shootingpain: /agree as well.
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Soytujefe
Bleeding Hollow
Soytujefe
9/21/2011
@Shootingpain:
Ty,
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Genroku
Bonechewer
Genroku
2/11/2012
@Shootingpain: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Embodiedeath
Azgalor
Embodiedeath
2/12/2012
@Druagar: i bet ur just bad at threat and u make fun of lower levels 2 make urself seem good
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Xanlardis
Arygos
Xanlardis
2/12/2012
@Shootingpain: i raid as a dps and role dungeons as a tank i take the time to explain each boss fight and the mechinacs of the fight , i am however an !@#$%^- if you fail to attack my target or decide to do your "own thing" instead of the mechinacs of the fight i took time to explain to you i will drop your *!@ like the elitist a-hole i am
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Nemeses
Winterhoof
Nemeses
2/14/2012
@Druagar: Well see now if you were good tank you wouldnt even need to worry about your aggro because you should have it. Or during raids you should know how to properly communicate to your team. You see similar to what shootingpain stated is that its people like you that even made me step away for a while, because you spend to much time on this game instead of maybe going out and attemping to get laid, or your in the midde of getting laid with your girl, see the time, and stop and say "O im sorry babe, i have a raid." its peoplelike you with no lives that become the elitests, bcause in the end all yo have is yourself to blame all because you forgot the simple fact of you were once there at that point and had to deal with another douch just like you.
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Avalister
Dragonmaw
Avalister
8/17/2011
When I'm dpsing on this guy, I have like all 359's except my helm and trinket, with a 378 relic. Now, I do raid, and I do know my class, and I do burst up to 22K (when my warrior on a different server is steadying 10-11k) and the tanks can hold aggro. What isn't holding aggro is 5-man Heroic bosses. And I've seen better geared/skilled/etc. tanks go into a 5-man than my raids sometimes. And I STILL pull off. And when I said I know my class, I do. Hand of Salvation, anyone? I do use that into my rotation. Right before I start bursting. And it works.... 1/2 the time.... So I'm wondering, are 5-man heroics harder to tank than raids?
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Diabolickahl
Aegwynn
Diabolickahl
8/20/2011
@Avalister: 5 mans are actually harder to tank than raids. as far as threat goes. Rage generation is lower, as mobs hit softer. And vengence doesn't stack as high as fast. also, raids often have pulls of only a few mobs at a time, or single target (boss). In heroics a geared tank will often pull several mobs at a time without CC. These mobs will often be hard to initiate threat against if they are ranged, or if they stun the tank on the pull.
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Xanlardis
Arygos
Xanlardis
2/12/2012
@Diabolickahl: ^ soo give me 2 to 3 seconds to grab inital aggro, it wont hurt you dps and its better than an AXE to the face
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Kervin
Emerald Dream
Kervin
6/17/2012
@Xanlardis: 90% of the DPS won't wait half a second for you to grab aggro if you ask them to. Most of them time, I pull almost all of the mobs, and then use my GCs to pull the rest off the impatient DPS
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Mcstabbystab
Silver Hand
Mcstabbystab
8/16/2011
I stopped tanking pugs because dps because I just got tired of ALWAYS having some moron that just goes berserk attacking everything around and not giving me one second to build threat. Threat isn't just the tanks problem. If you're the only person who dies on every pull, whose fault is that?
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Ravorei
Dragonmaw
Ravorei
8/16/2011
Sure they do. It's called reincarn. Total threat dump. :)
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@Ravorei: not pvp-able
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"Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP."

Hah. Good news, shamans, you apparently don't actually exist in PvE.
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@Step: Hey, we have...the Stoneclaw Glyph...

/pulls aggro

BOOM!! 4k shield!!!

Get through that, Erudax!!

-.-

...wind shear drops threat, right?

/dead
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Kharix
Blade's Edge
Kharix
8/16/2011
At 85, threat seems balanced for most groups where the DPS assists and waits to nuke until the tank has control.

Prior to that, well I'm leveling up a newbie healer and if the tank doesn't have heirloom gear then the DPS with heirlooms becomes the tank.
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Xanlardis
Arygos
Xanlardis
2/12/2012
@Kharix: pally tanks do 60% of the damage done in the lower level dungeons lmfao you basically need a pally tank and healer to do them in heirloom gear . yes the lower levels are extremely unbalanced
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Thraeve
Shadowsong
Thraeve
7/24/2011
Its very hard to keep argo on ranged mobs when dps insists on hitting everything it can, my suggestion would be for bliz to revamp the lfg system, put it in 3 sets, set 1 give tank added threat so dps can hit the mob thats standing 30 yards from the tank without the tank losing threat. Set 2 you would have to earn ie tank is semi geared and dps hit tanks target. set 3 for the elitist lot that want to run the instance in 2 minutes flat.

As some one that has tanked with all 4 tank classes i find the warriors cooldowns to hard to remember / focus on . the DK has no real aoe control, or the druid. Paladin is the most forgiving tank class but it gets out threated by just about everything. there are far to many dps that think a tank has complete threat control over everthing.

ask yourself a question in " Stonecore " how many times has the dps died before last boss for pulling one of the 3 packs in front of boss?

Mine is probaly about 70%