Tol Barad Balance

Tol Barad Balance

Now that Cataclysm is out in the wild, more players are getting geared up and checking out Tol Barad, the new outdoor PvP zone. Today, we wanted to address some of the concerns players have expressed about the zone, including how challenging it can be to win as the attacking team, and provide some insight into our design approach. We also wanted to share some of the lessons we learned from Wintergrasp, discuss the difference between the two zones, and touch upon the recent hotfixes made to Honor Point gains and how we plan to improve Tol Barad going forward. We're confident this zone will provide meaningful and fun PvP for some time to come, but we also recognize additional tuning is required to ensure Tol Barad is everything we intend it to be.

As we mentioned earlier, the attacking faction is having a pretty tough time winning control of Tol Barad -- and we're OK with that, at least in theory. Here's why: When we set out to create Wintergrasp, one of the issues we dealt with was that we were never able to ensure the sides were even -- in fact, they rarely were. Because the smaller team would almost always be assured defeat, we attempted to address team-size imbalance by favoring the attacker. Control of Wintergrasp went back and forth, and the result was that battles lost their impact. On most realms the defenders became complacent, knowing they were likely to lose control of the zone, returning to re-take it when it was their turn to attack. The sides swapped back and forth every few hours, and Wintergrasp wasn’t so much about an epic struggle for a meaningful piece of land as it was a complicated game of leapfrog.

Since then we’ve devised mechanics that help ensure equal team sizes, and we took Wintergrasp's lessons to heart when we designed Tol Barad. Tol Barad is intentionally balanced so that it’s a challenge for the attackers, because we want to make sure that control of Tol Barad matters. For the defenders, there’s a sense of urgency that Wintergrasp didn't have -- if you lose it, you’re going to have a hell of a time taking it back. For the attackers, there are a number of rewards at stake -- such as access to the Baradin Hold raid and additional daily quests -- that we hope players feel are worth fighting for. That sort of tension is what we wanted from Wintergrasp, and what we believe Tol Barad can ultimately offer.

With that being said, we want winning Tol Barad to be a challenge for the attacking faction... but we don't want it to be impossible. Taking Tol Barad should be tough -- but right now it’s a little bit too tough, and it’s something we’re actively working to balance. Earlier, we attempted to temporarily address the issue by offering a far better reward to the winning attackers: Honor Points awarded for successfully attacking were increased tenfold, but that was such a great incentive that it ultimately undermined the spirit of competition. Since then, the reward for winning as an attacker has been brought back down to a more reasonable amount.

While we've already made minor adjustments to improve the gameplay and address select exploits, our job in Tol Barad is far from over. We ultimately want to make sure that any changes we make are all steps in the right direction, and we intend to make several updates in the next minor patch to address design and balance issues affecting attackers that we can't address with hotfixes. For example, we plan to alter the battle slightly so that a team with two bases captured can more quickly and easily capture the third, as opposed to a team with one or zero bases. This way, if the defenders turtle up, it'll be a little easier for the attackers to take their last base before the defense can take one of the attackers' other bases.

We've been reading your feedback, watching trends across our global realms, and fighting plenty of battles in Tol Barad ourselves to get a feel for what's working and what isn't, and we're committed to making Tol Barad a fun and engaging zone. We want owning the zone to be meaningful throughout the lifespan of the expansion -- and while the attackers may always face somewhat of an uphill battle, the defenders should feel much more pressure not to lose than they do currently. Just the same, the attacking faction should feel motivated to take Tol Barad back, but they shouldn't feel that the odds are insurmountable. So keep fighting the good fight, and we'll continue watching the battlefield and listening to your feedback.

Cory "Mumper" Stockton is the lead content designer on World of Warcraft and enjoys a good set of LEGOs.

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Nastarde
Sen'jin
Nastarde
4/14/2012
No horde on aleria play tol barad im alone almos talways or the one guy quits> its not because of you making it hard to win its cause too many wont play at all so id say it does not work for me>> maybe thats what everyone else says
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Urhines
Daggerspine
Urhines
3/12/2012
You guys really f***ed up with Tol Barad. Needs WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY more balance. I quit a year ago and just recently paid for a resub. Nice to see that nothing has been done to balance TB. Its far worse than Wintergrasp and the fact that you say you took your mistakes from WG in consideration when creating Tol Barad is a complete JOKE!
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Ilikeitrough
Lightninghoof
Ilikeitrough
3/25/2012
@Urhines: Couldn't have been said any better. :)
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Brandya
Kirin Tor
Brandya
3/9/2012
the balance doesn't work.....horde ques up for a battle.....and still there is 10 to 4 in a group....i have ally toon and there is always more ally than the horde....i created and leveled an ally toon just for that purpose.....there is always more alliance teams in the battle field than horde.....if the teams are not 10 or more people then don't let the battle happen.....that is what is not fair.....yall say it is more balanced...what part.....the winning team....wow favors ally and it will always be that way.....perhaps....the idea....of ever how many is in the group for the ones that has less people....then make the other side have the same amount of people....that is why i don't even bother to go to tobarad....cause i already know horde don't never have enough people....that is why ally wins all the time.....and it isn't that we are lazy.....hell it pisses me off to see that ally has 10 people and horde only has 4 and the battle begins....you call that balanced and fair....i don't even bother to pvp anymore.....and the raiding system....25 man raids....once you kill a boss....if you don't win the gear....then you have to wait another week to be able to try to loot off that boss.....it takes forever....make the raid group a 10 man.....make it to where players can get the gear....making us work harder for the raid finder to get gear.....just makes everyone more mad and not want to bother with it.
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Emmeno
Emerald Dream
Emmeno
5/16/2012
@Brandya: I....Like...ellipsis....
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Tersly
Bladefist
Tersly
2/26/2012
just want to say thanks for making it impossible to take TB. We haven't had it in weeks. but thats ok because we don't want people to become complacent with winning or anything. WG style was way more fun...you know, like giving everyone a chance to win. Whats not fun about that?
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Tilben
Borean Tundra
Tilben
1/30/2012
The problem is the players. most WOW players don't want to admitt it but most of them or us are lazy. They dont want balance they want to transfer to what ever server is going to make them a winner. The WOW way is to find out what server has what you want and transfer to that server instead of getting better. t he balance idea is a joke most WOW players would transfer to another server if it was going to be balanced they want to go were their faction is going to win 75% or better.
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Mathezar
Shattered Halls
Mathezar
1/2/2012
I think the time has come for blizzard to rebalance Tol Barad again. I understand that on some servers it is frustrating that nobody from your side shows up to attack the defending team. But more frustrating is wasting half an hour, or more, in que for a fight that you may or may not get into.

I played everyday in Wintersgrasp, and sometimes we were outnumbered so severly that there was no hope of winning, but it isn't the battle grounds fault that one side didn't show up. It is like a grocery store blaming the customers for not shopping there. When your side fails because it is lacking participation in a battle ground, don't blame the opposite faction, or the mechanics of the game! Blame the players in your faction. Get people involved, announce the coming fight in trade, yell if you must. And when you fail, let the people on your side know that only 2 people showed up and you got creamed by the other 20 from the the opposing faction, but you still got 20 kills for being there.

The Tol Barad "rebalancing" act is wasting THIS customers time, because they are codling the little kiddies crying over a sc#@!@d knee. It isn't like losing is costing you much gold, grow up, get over it, wipe your nose.
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Megaclaw
Staghelm
Megaclaw
12/15/2011
can you fix this !@#$tie battle ground it is to one sided this bg belongs to the horde 80% of the time on my server
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Mathezar
Shattered Halls
Mathezar
1/2/2012
The opposite faction owns it, and 2 or 3 show up to defend it. A waste of a good battle ground!@Megaclaw:
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Cätäräcs
Khaz'goroth
Cätäräcs
11/29/2011
Its simple the horde will always be the best a BGS becasue the horde are mainly PVP on most realms. and in TB the alliance always lose because the horde out gear them. to me all you alliance player out there, ifd you wanna win TB get some Pvp gear and learn ur spec other wise it will be another defeat.
also if you are om Aman'Thul TB is very evenly matched with both alliance and horde winning. so i suggest you allaice players if you wanna win TB get some PVP gear and stop crying.
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Brandya
Kirin Tor
Brandya
3/9/2012
@Nagnarock: you want to make a bet on that.....the ally on kirin tor always owns the battle ground...come to kirin tor. you will see....
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Onetoomany
Shandris
Onetoomany
11/25/2011
Just don't understand all the complaints below directed at Blizzard. "Fix TB"? I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the design of TB. What I do see are large numbers of people that just do not understand the mechanics of the game in depth.

Perhaps the only thing Blizz could do would be to offer some sort of instructions on how it works in an easy to find place. Either in game or on their site.

I've heard things over and over like, "we're outnumbered", "Horde keeps dropping raid to increase their numbers". Every time I have done a /who during a TB and then popped over to the Horde side and done the same, the numbers are exactly even(give or take 1 every now and then probably due to a new person queuing during my log out)and I have done this on multiple servers all with the same results. BTW, if you didn't know, there is a 5 person minimum per side that can enter before the numbers are supposed to be 1 to 1.

Don't get me wrong guys, TB has been the most frustrating experience in PVP for me as well. I don't come from a server where my faction(Alliance)always wins TB. On the contrary, TB has always been a struggle for us on Shandris. We have had our temporary win streaks but Horde has always come back to dominating with defense after defense after defense consecutively.

As much as it has angered me, I've come to accept after 9 months of pretty much daily TB's, that they just have better players on the Shandris Horde side and almost always have more healers in any given game.

Perhaps this is where your real frustrations should be directed, towards the people you play with. I have seen Shandris players over and over execute the same failed tactics with the same results in the end. TB is as much a race as it is a PVP event IMO. Our people may be able to take a base away from Horde, but when the base is clear or nearly clear, do they in any significant numbers charge to either reinforce our first base or to take the 3rd one while we may be able to take advantage of that capping speed bonus Blizzard implemented? Hell no, they sit there and fight 2 Horde with 12 people and then have a coffee and doughnut break after that, giving all the Horde they just killed plenty of time to rez and take our other base away from us before the last flag even begins to move in our direction. They just do not know what is going on half the time and the other half is just us being out PVP'd, period.

If TB needs to be "fixed", then why have the Shandris Horde always had such an easy time of winning it? They have no problem attacking when we have it either. If we gain TB we usually lose it the next game or the one after that, while during prime time hours Horde has easily held it 4 and sometimes 6 friggin times in a row on some days(granted in the last month or two it has gone back and forth more often than ever).

I'm not trying to flame anyone or diminish the claims of some about certain exploits that I have not personally experienced or looked into. I am just passionate about the game and have had fun times in there. If you just don't personally like TB and you do understand it's mechanics, fine, I can respect that. Just think some of ya are off base in pointing the finger at Blizzard for your bad experiences in their battleground.

TC guys
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Mathezar
Shattered Halls
Mathezar
1/2/2012
I is a large disappointment in my day when a friend and myself que for TB and one, or both of us are shut out. I have limited resources of time to play, and not being allowed to participate is frustrating.

I was never bothered by being outnumbered in Wintersgrasp, sometimes I needed a good stomping.@Onetoomany:
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Brandya
Kirin Tor
Brandya
3/9/2012
@Onetoomany: come to kirin tor....the ally out numbers horde all the time in TB. if it was free i would move my toons over to your server so i could win a few get my gear and move back to kirin tor....this server is where all my friends are....you make some good points ...and other points you are wrong....but it is good that people have the forums to discuss things like this....you know what i don't like....ally or horde thinking they are better than everyone else.....it is just a game....no one is better than the other....but you have to admit....blizz does favor ally side....i created a ally toon....leveled it to 85....i didn't battle grounds all day long on ally.....and we clobbered the horde....to win....but it wasn't fair because the numbers were not equal....how can someone be proud of winning without it being equal.....i want a fight that is going to be equal and challenging....fair and just....that is what makes pvp worth fighting.....man....i don't play pvp anymore...it is not worth my time....btw i am 100% horde....
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Merigh
Moon Guard
Merigh
11/17/2011
Please can we see this thing fixed?
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Baruch
Shandris
Baruch
11/11/2011
Almost a year after release, and Tol Barad is still the most un fun experience in the game. Good job, there, guys. If I produced such a stinker at my job, I wouldn't have one.
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Vaeirus
Zuluhed
Vaeirus
11/3/2011
WHY CANT WE EVER WIN A BG?!!!
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Wóden
Kil'jaeden
Wóden
11/2/2011
I say remove all rewards for Tol Barad, 0 honor, no extra dailies, and BH be open to everyone.
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Drkprotector
Kalecgos
Drkprotector
11/1/2011
Well while ur trying to even out TB, have you ever thought about also bringing back WG? Sure it's up in northrend where people don't go any more, but why not help revive northrend and other places by offering something to 85's in WG in northrend other then the dailies and mount and such. I mean really outlands and northrend are now dead because every every expansion u make kills the area that use to be for level cap. for expample, when burning crusade came out, you killed the noob area's cept for draenie and blood elf zones but then soon those area's died once people left them on their new races.
then it was outlands that became the populated area, people going for all those new mounts like the netherdrakes, the sky guard mounts, haala in nagrand to get the dark talbuks, not to mention the regular talbuks that took a long time to get rep for. but still noob area died out. then when u brought out WotLK, outlands died, the only place that ever stayed alive was Hell Fire because that's where 60-68 was people never went to other zones because they were new and had no clue about the epic mounts they could of gotten in those area's till they were level 80 then they didnt' even bother cuz they were doing dungeons and gearing up and ever went back. and now cata comes out, u take away portals from both shattrath and dalaran and only leave the portals to the main capitals. now SW and org are so populated there are people who crash. sure no one has a need to go to dalaran or shattrath now unless they need rep for other area's or wanna do the dailies and get achievments. but those area's aren't as populated because u took away the thing the made both of them useful, u took away the portals to the capitals. which now people have to fly around to get to other places unless they have all 6 portals to the other zones.
But my point is this, every area the use to be populated by everyone is now dead cept for the noob area's because u placed level cap content in those area's.
U revived a dead area, now why not before u even bring out the new expansion, put in some new patches that can help revive outlands and northrend with somelevel 85 content, bring in something into WG for 85's or bring in some new 85 content to the zones add new phaseing for 81-85 into the zones bring in quests or dailies or fights something that can revive outlands and northrend so everywhere is then populated agian, and bring back the capital portals to dalaran and shattrath.

sure bringing in content to outlands for 85's might really mess things up being that outlands is where the lore about the wild hammers, dragonmaw, as well as gorrash starts, but at least if u bring in phaseing the area's will be repopulated, and realm PvP can be revived once agian in halaa offering people a better chance at getting those mounts.

You don't have to worry about destroying the zones just bring in something that can offer more to the 85's that will bring them back, i mean ur already gonna change up dragonblight in the major patch comeing up. at least that's what it seams like. anyways hopefully u take up my idea to revive both outlands and northrend, before even bringing out the expansion.
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Destruidor
Aerie Peak
Destruidor
10/27/2011
I just did a Tol Barad in Aerie Peak. I was the only one in the horde side, we were attacking, they had FOUR allies...how is it fair?
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Dmvpriest
Ursin
Dmvpriest
10/27/2011
@Destruidor: because 1 horde > 4 alliance :D
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Wraf
Aman'Thul
Wraf
10/30/2011
@Destruidor: I stopped doing TB for the last month or so but I also have had similar experiences in the past. It was most obvious when there were not a lot of players from either side participating. There were talks that the attacking faction would get more players because it was harder to win but I totally do not believe it. I remember once there were 2 hordes (me being one of them) attacking and 5 alliances defending. Should the hordes be "punished" just because there happens to be more alliances on a particular server and they are having a harder time to queue for TB? I don't think so!
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Thrimironaxe
Staghelm
Thrimironaxe
10/20/2011
In April I stopped playing for 4 months because it was no longer worth my time. The game has declined for many reasons, but the final straw for me was being locked out of Tol Barad for about one month without a single Alliance victory. Horde think of TB as an entitlement, which it is because very few Alliance players still bother to show up.

I came back a few weeks ago, and it is still the same mess. So far zero Alliance victories in TB since mi September.

This is a disgrace.
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Drkavorki
Scilla
Drkavorki
10/27/2011
@Thrimironaxe: This sounds like a prob with the alliance trying and not the horde. try linking the time untill TB in trade and talking in raid to organize everyone
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Hirst
Dragonmaw
Hirst
10/27/2011
@Thrimironaxe: been there done that T.T
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Drkprotector
Kalecgos
Drkprotector
11/1/2011
@Thrimironaxe: back in WotLK, i was an alliance on this DK, horde kept winning WG over and over and over, i kept trying to get people to work together but alliance back then on kalecgos cared nothing for PVP they only went into WG to get VoA they didn't try they never did, for that i went horde to get WG get my quests done faster, and get into VoA more often. I got sick and tired of the stupidity of the alliance on my realm, the reason the alliance on ur realm don't join TB is because they aren't passionate about PvP, untill they start to be passionate and a guild on ur realm forms to just do TB and win it, u should look foward toloseing it over and over till u go horde like i did. Since the release of cata though, my realm has declined a lot. we use to be a medium population now we're a low population.
and it seams alliance has TB more often, the largest horde guild has ruined the econemy because they have over 700 members while other guilds are either 5-200 and most of them are inactive because they gave up on being in a realm where a guild has ruined everything by being TOO BIG.

Anyways, if you want to win TB, u can either find a guild that is willing to work together and listen to others to win TB even agianst the odds. OR you faction change to horde.
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Chuckmoo
Norgannon
Chuckmoo
10/8/2011
I just got done traveling the globe for work over the past month and found that I can no longer queue for Tol Barad because of a new rule (presumably since I've queued twice today for a grand total of 30 wasted minutes).
Since I can play only when I am not traveling, this is a little deflating. I can care less of the fairness of the game when my time is wasted.
Blizzard, please fix this bizarre 'enhancement' to BGs before I decide that paying for 3 (family) accounts isn't worth my money when my time is wasted. Good luck on the improvements, but please make it quick as I have limited patience for those that waste my time and money. While I am a 'geek' and love playing MMPORGs while not working, I fight to do so when my time can be spent on other more entertaining endeavors.
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Xoss
Crushridge
Xoss
9/6/2011
Could do a better job metering the number of players squaring off when the number-per-side is low. Currently playing 5v3 or 4v2 every night and not really worth it to queue. When it is 80 vs 78 this is not such a big deal, but if you joined an arena match down 2 players, you would never expect to win.
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Cykoryn
Aman'Thul
Cykoryn
9/1/2011
Started WoW late January this year an remember my first TB wearing nothing but pve gear ..had a great time..so i kept going back and i always thought the teams were even and winning or loosing usually depended upon the make up of those teams ...teams with good heals can really put up a good defence etc.
People had started saying that Defending TB 3 times in a row was hard work as it didnt take that long for the attackers to capture a base... i was ok with that..I like attacking.. but now i keep hearing that the teams are unbalanced... uneven numbers just like WG.
I hope thats not the case... Im on an Allied dominated server and will probably not go as often as i did.
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Dushkup
Bloodhoof
Dushkup
9/1/2011
Metering the number of entrants address player imbalance better than tenacity did. But this post regards turnover as if it's a bad word. If you make it so that the attacker has a SLIGHT advantage, you both promote turnover and do not predict the outcome of any given battle. The way it should be. With so much riding on the zone as this article outlines, it shouldn't be that one faction could perpetually control it.
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Alkine
Fenris
Alkine
8/31/2011
And what ive also read from other people's post are that they are also having trouble getting TB in 4.2 as well. Im not saying this is blizz's worst fail i like this more then WG but there are still some bugs that need to be worked out. If the attacking team is losing every time make incentives for them to go i know the people on my server have just stopped going b/c we are all so pissed. Not a bad idea just needs some fixing.
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Alkine
Fenris
Alkine
8/31/2011
Our realm is completely unfair... with us the horde has controlled TB for the past 3 days and we have yet to be able to win. This is because when teams are equaled out it unbalances the fairness. With a say 40v40 game the offence has to cap two bases and set about 5-10 people to deffend that base, if you have 2 bases thats about 20 people out of the attacking force. On the other hand the deffence can send a group of 30 people to one of the bases, zerg it, then keep going in that order and deffending team has no way to stop it. We could try and keep 30 people at the base they are going to attack but the battle would last for miuntes wasting the attackers times. And while that big battle is going on 10 more players of the deffence are constantly attacking the other base. All im saying is the attacking team should be able to have about 10-15 more people in a 40v40 raid and scaling with size. That or give the attacking team a 1-5% healing and damage increase as of right now if deffence is slaughtering us every time there.
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Dristwaz
Argent Dawn
Dristwaz
8/25/2011
Sounds like from all the griping that it is working as intended. Personally, I think the balance is just fine. Yes, I agree that if you're the attacking team that it is indeed much harder for you take back control of Tol Barad.

As I read the comments I just chuckle. If you want it to be like WG, then go play the WG battleground. What fun is there in having the same BG twice? Each battleground provides a different playing experience and challenge to win. If you like the mechanics of what another battleground offers, then go play that one. Just because something is challenging doesn't mean that Blizzard was completely off on how they designed it. It probably means that you just want things handed to you with little to no effort and that just down plays the sense of reward when you do righteously earn it.

If things were truly imbalanced, then why would it be so easy for a side that normally dominates a server's TB to retake it back when they are the attacking team? My point being, that if you really think the attackers have a huge disadvantage, then by that reasoning it should be very easy for the controlling side to maintain control of TB, yet this is not the case on many servers. Take a second and really think about it.
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Notahordiexd
Terenas
Notahordiexd
10/25/2011
@Dristwaz: i agree with this completely. Attacking is harder, but defending is not easy either. its balanced enough...dont mess up a good thing by tinkering with it too much
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Slakqwas
Galakrond
Slakqwas
8/20/2011
I LIKE PIE
I LIKE PIE
I LIKE PIE
I LIKE PIE
I LIKE PIE=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=D=
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Slakqwas
Galakrond
Slakqwas
8/20/2011
HAY GUYS =D
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Doodlekick
Suramar
Doodlekick
8/15/2011
i agree with the notion thats its not at 1:1 at all. if i join and see we have 15 alliance on our side, i know we are in trouble. horde will come running in with at least that many and still have enough to send 3-4 to each tower to kill the tanks and defend the other bases. this can not be right can it? i did notice that a few mins after tb starts, the (local defense) tol barad is under attack pops up and i see 5-10 horde come from the bridge, there is a serious design flaw. alliance on my server are close to just not joining anymore, we might have it once a day, but i have gone a week between wins also. I would welcome any gm to join a tb on my server between 5-10 est and see this crap in person.

one last thing, the battle rez exploit still works, watched a horde rogue do it tonight at warden's vigal, we had it won till 20 horde poped from nowhere behind the building
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Scorpionz
Malygos
Scorpionz
8/9/2011
Here is the problem from what I have seen on my server. There is no way it is 1-1 on numbers. Call it what ya want an exploit, bug, cheat or whatever but there is no way the numbers are even for getting in TB. This needs to be fixed.
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Philtodeath
Zangarmarsh
Philtodeath
8/3/2011
"Just the same, the attacking faction should feel motivated to take Tol Barad back, but they shouldn't feel that the odds are insurmountable."

This is why Tol Barad is broken. The lesser of the 2 factions on the server rarely feels motivated to take it because the odds are almost always insurmountable for them. Some serious revamping of the zone (I mean, somewhere close to a complete scrapping of the current mechanics and bring in something totally new) is necessary if you want people to even remotely start feeling the way you want them to about Tol Barad.