Wow, Dungeons are Hard!

Wow, Dungeons are Hard!

We've seen and heard a lot of discussion about the challenge presented by the Cataclysm Heroic dungeons, and to a lesser extent the raids. I'm not sure this is the kind of issue where we're going to be able to change anyone’s mind on the subject, but I can try to provide more insight into our point of view as well as offer some suggestions for success.

First, let me state that we do hear you. We understand some of you aren’t having fun and preferred the Lich King paradigm, or at least something closer to the Lich King paradigm. We greatly appreciate the feedback and it always makes us sad when players aren’t having fun. We're not ignoring you. We get it. We may not always agree on every point, but we understand where you’re coming from, and we want to try to help you understand where we're coming from.

The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They’re only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion.

On the other hand, we don't want you to stumble your way to victory. We don't want you to be able to overwhelm bosses without noticing or caring what they’re doing. We don’t want healers to be able to make up for all of the mistakes on the part of the other players. While at the end of the day, dungeons may just be gussied up loot vending machines, we want you to do more than push a button to get the loot.

Ultimately, we don’t want to give undergeared or unorganized groups a near guaranteed chance of success, because then the content will feel absolutely trivial for players in appropriate gear who communicate, cooperate, and strategize.

We didn't like that the Heroic dungeons in Lich King and early Naxxramas had become zerg-fests. It made the rewards feel like they weren't earned. It made all rewards except the best-in-slot items feel transitory -- why enchant or gem an item when you don’t need the performance boost and you’ll quickly replace it anyway? Furthermore, it set the expectation that everyone would eventually earn all best-in-slot items rather than those being rare and treasured goals. It made class abilities feel less useful and interesting. Who needs that crowd-control or survivability talent when nothing is hurting you? Who needs a mana-conservation talent if you’re never going to run out of mana? Who needs a crit talent if your heals often overheal anyway?

Finally, the encounters, even the bosses, ended up having a sameness to them because you could ignore their mechanics. It didn't matter -- in fact, you didn't even notice -- if the dragon breathes or silences or drops a void zone. The fights all felt the same.

In Cataclysm, the Heroic dungeons and raids are intended to be challenging -- and they are, at least until you overgear them.

 

So what can you do if you find the Heroics too challenging? Here are a few tips and alternatives.

Strategy and Communication

Tanks, you can’t pull and AE every group in a Heroic (again, until you overgear the content). It’s a good idea to crowd control at least one target -- and sometimes two. As long as you have someone with a long-duration and/or renewable crowd control and someone else with a short crowd control such as a stun or even a snare, you should be fine. We don’t have anything like Heroic Shattered Halls, and you don’t need 3 mages for CC. Caster mobs, which are weak but do a lot of damage, are good choices for crowd control. So are mobs that buff other mobs or debuff your group. Don’t waste the CC on non-elite mobs or others that will die quickly. The responsibility for marking and setting the pace often falls upon the tank, but sometimes other experienced players are happy to take the mantle. If you are setting the pace, you need to keep an eye on healer mana. Healers will generally have enough mana to keep you alive in any given fight, but you need to be careful not to chain pull repeatedly if their mana is low. Tanks tend to have good situational awareness and are experienced at reducing incoming damage. Where I have personally seen them get into trouble is when they slip into overconfident “I got this” mode and try to tank too many things at once.

DPS specs often get blamed the most for not knowing what is going on. It should be your business to understand the mechanics of the fights. You’re a member of a team, not a follower who can always rely on someone else to tell them what to do. Which are the spells that need to be interrupted? Which are the void zones that you absolutely must get out of? Which are the adds that must be burned down (and conversely, when should you ignore the adds and focus on the boss instead)? If you aren’t sure, then ask. Almost every group would rather take the few seconds to explain a fight than to wipe because you failed to dodge Glubtok's wall of fire or tried to AE Vanessa’s spiders or didn't understand what "Downwind of Altairus" meant.

Healers seem like they largely understand that Heroics are challenging, and sometimes get penalized when the rest of the group doesn’t understand that. If you feel like you can’t cast anything but your efficient heal or you’ll run out of mana, then something is going wrong with the fight. Likewise, if you feel like you must spam your inefficient heals to the exclusion of all else, then your group is ignoring key mechanics or is just undergeared. Boss fights in 5-player dungeons generally shouldn’t last more than two minutes or so (the last few Deadmines bosses can be longer). If you’re running out of mana because the fights are going too long, that is a problem with the DPS or tank in your group. Gear also makes a huge difference for healers, which leads to my next point.

For everyone, regardless of role, I suggest running the dungeons on normal mode until you feel more comfortable with the pulls. Those runs can be quick, the penalty for mistakes isn’t as high, and you can often still earn a little reputation, cloth, or enchanting materials. As a bonus, you’ll probably make a group really happy if you’re geared for Heroics but helping them out in a normal dungeon.
 

Improve

If you just can’t make progress and you are literally wiping on trash pulls over and over, it may be time to analyze your gear. The Dungeon Finder's Heroic item level requirement should be considered a minimum -- and remember, it doesn’t look at enchants or gems or even if the gear is appropriate for you. We are assuming an entry-level Heroic player has a lot of item level 333 gear from Twilight Highlands, normal dungeons, or any of the reputation vendors. These 333s are probably mixed in with a few 318 quest greens, but offset by a few 346 items. If you finished the Hyjal quests, you are probably Revered with Guardians of Hyjal and have access to their 346 items. Questing might only earn you Honored with some of the other reputations, but that is easily rectified with daily quests or dungeon tabards (and don’t forget the Tol Barad reps). There are some nice crafted items. No, the weapons aren’t purple, but when you look at their stats, they are quite competitive.

The item level requirement is intended only to keep out players who have no idea what is appropriate content for them. We know you can game it by getting PvP gear or hiding off-spec gear in your bags. Congrats on being sneaky! If you’re sophisticated enough to try and game the item-level requirements, you should be sophisticated enough to know if you can actually handle the content.

Don't be stingy and decide you aren’t going to mess with gemming, enchanting, or reforging until you have epic gear. Note that you don’t have to always apply the most expensive enchants or gems. Gear matters a lot. It increases DPS, survivability, and mana sustainability. Healers who get, say, 1750-1800 Spirit notice that they can go a lot longer without gassing out. Go ahead and get enchants or gems or reforge to get a lot of Spirit. Some DPS specs who don’t reforge hit at those gear levels would struggle a lot as well. The new Cataclysm flasks are fairly expensive, but the Lich King ones aren’t, and there are elixirs and food consumables you can use as well. Archaeologists can even unlock small bonuses in the new dungeons.

Furthermore, once 4.1 comes out, you will have access to more powerful gear that will let you then revisit the content you couldn’t do before. Your Justice points will let you purchase epic items at that point, and Heroics that were challenging will become a lot easier. Players who have raid gear currently are already starting to burn through the dungeon content again, which is totally expected. You’ll get there too. In Lich King, the content patches tended to completely invalidate the previous tier of content. We don’t want players to feel like they need to farm Naxxramas when Icecrown Citadel is out, but at the other end of the spectrum, it was unfortunate that we largely killed Ulduar raiding when Trial of the Crusader came out.
 

LF3M 9600GS PST

I love the Dungeon Finder. I worked on it a lot personally. It is quite successful at finding you a group. It doesn't guarantee a successful group. It's a huge improvement over spamming trade chat trying to find a tank for your three-rogue party. But throwing together up to 5 strangers and asking them to do challenging content that some of the group may have never seen before is always going to be risky.

World of Warcraft supports a lot of solo play. However, we want dungeons to be a group experience. In fact, we think the game is more fun overall when you play with friends, which is why we put so much effort into encouraging players to join guilds for Cataclysm. Running a hard dungeon with friends tends to be a much better experience. Communication feels less awkward, and everyone is generally more supportive of mistakes. You learn the strengths and weaknesses and nuances of players that you run with regularly. There tend to be fewer loot arguments as well. PUGs have their place -- don’t get me wrong. But we don’t want to sacrifice dungeons being fun and challenging for organized groups in order to have everything be conquered by any possible group. Make sense?

I’ve PUGged the Cataclysm content a lot. So have all of the designers. We want to stay in touch with what players are experiencing. Heroic PUGs are definitely harder than going with groups of people you know, but they aren’t impossible. If things start to go wrong, you might want to take a moment to analyze why they are going wrong before you bail. I do weep for those players who join an in-progress Heroic Rajh attempt (with suspicious player skeletons everywhere), immediately pull without any discussion, and then have the tank leave the group following the first wipe. That’s not fun for anyone and not going to lead to success. These aren't the original Scholomance or Arcatraz runs that could take four hours with respawns. Making a couple of concerted attempts on Rajh is probably going to be faster than going into the queue again.
 

Mistakes?

We've seen a few threads that suggest that we're too proud to admit mistakes. I find that logic strange, because we do it all the time. Example one: we reverted the 10x honor from Tol Barad pretty quickly. It was a mistake. Example two: Heroic Strike is too dominant an attack for warriors. That was a mistake. Example three: the Lich King Heroic dungeons (and Naxxramas) were too easy to zerg, setting up an expansion-long expectation that purple gear would come easy and often. In retrospect, that was a mistake. We don't at all view the Cataclysm dungeon and raid balance as a mistake.

However, I can name at least three things related to dungeon difficulty that we either did wrong or could do better. We're our own worst critic, and we are very hard on our own decisions.

First, item level is a necessary -- but not sufficient -- hoop to jump through when using the Dungeon Finder for Heroics. We should have also made sure players had at least seen the content on normal mode before. Maybe we should have had Burning Crusade-like attunements. Maybe we should have made the item level requirements pretty relaxed if you’re going with a premade group and much stricter if you’re going with a pick-up group. We’d love to implement (and have some long-term plans that include) better ways to detect if you know what you’re doing other than just the gear you’ve accumulated. Overall, we just needed to state more clearly that Heroic dungeons are intended as a destination, not a first step.

Second, there are only a few level-85 normal dungeons. For a level-85 player who isn’t ready for Heroics but wants to run dungeons, these can get old pretty quickly. Perhaps another way to handle it would have been to have introductory Heroics and harder Heroics. We’ve also flirted with having three difficulty levels before, but that does add an extra level of content to develop and complexity to explain.

Third, the game could do a better job of telling a group why they failed so that so much blame doesn’t fall at the feet of the healer. We talk a lot about not standing in fires, but equally important is the number of bosses that spawn in adds that must be gathered up and/or burned down quickly, or in some cases ignored. We’re also asking a lot of DPS or tanks in those situations, but that information isn’t always conveyed well except through trial and error.
 

In Conclusion

We do understand that some healers are frustrated and giving up. That is sad and unfortunate. But the degree to which it's happening, at least at this point in time, is vastly overstated on the forums. We also know that plenty of players like the changes and find healing more enjoyable now. Both sides need to spend a little less effort trying to drown out the other side claiming that everyone they know -- and by extension, “the majority of players” -- agree with their point. You shouldn’t need to invoke a silent majority if you can make an articulate and salient point.

As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps. By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience.

In any case, we want to ensure that everyone is having fun and enjoying their time with the game, and I hope that this post may serve to some as the "tare" button that helps you zero in on the intended dungeon difficulty scale. For others, just know that we are actively reading feedback. For everyone offering constructive posts and points about their experience, we thank you.
 

 

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He has four dogs: three epic retrievers and one green terrier suitable for disenchanting.

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Shevchenko
Eonar
Shevchenko
4/25/2013
I completely agree with you Serhyn. I was searching through the forums hoping to find a way to contact Ghostcrawler, since he is a very enthusiastic and responsible developer.

The game has lost its sense of fellowship and challenge. There is no longer finding your own group and running to a summoning stone to get the epic dungeons into action. If a group member was slacking and didn't know the fights or needed some guidance, the group members would try their best to assist him because players worked as a community. There was no, "lets kick this guy out and queue up for another." That is garbage. I'm not sure why WoW decided to turn into such a fast paced environment.

I remember waking up on early mornings eager to run a dungeon and find group members who could get the job done. Two guys would volunteer to run to the summoning stone, while the rest got to sit back and grab another cup of coffee. Nobody minded waiting because they were either sitting back, relaxing, and enjoying the good deeds of the other two players, or running to the summoning stone trying to figure out the fastest way possible there, or in the case of running to Scarlet Monastery: "I wonder if I can make it past these lvl 50 bears and survive? I'm up the challenge. It beats running through the alterac mountains."

I wish there was a way to bring back the old memories that all gamers loved. Everything was hard earned and the community was strong. Guilds were either dedicated to raiding or pvp or just to sit back, relax, and have a few laughs with the other members. It wasn't "lets add as many members to our guild as possible so that we can get all of the rewards." Things made sense and were fun.

I acknowledge that the game has gone so far into development that it is impossible to turn back, but that leads me to a simple, yet extreme suggestion. Would it be possible to create a brand new game using all of the knowledge of the goods and bads. Create a similar framework, using the same graphics and development tools. Build a new game that will catch the interest of all of the gamers who left for other games, but knew that WoW provided them with the greatest experience. If this cannot be achieved then it leads me to suggest another semi-radical idea. Re-release the Burning Crusade.

This seems to be the only way to reach you Ghostcrawler, but I would love to exchange ideas through email.
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Serhyn
Alterac Mountains
Serhyn
4/12/2013
The problem is in the entitlements imo three things need to change to get WoW back to being the fun game that it used to be. First, make content as difficult as it was back in BC, where you died if you pulled aggro. CC was essential and players grew in skill over time as they progressed through their journey. Second, get rid of justice and valor points. The badge system has stifled the epic feeling of epics. Epics need to be extremely challenging to obtain in order to give them that legendary feel that they had back in Vanilla and BC. Third, bring back raid attunements. Contrary to what many players believe, you should not be allowed to see certain content until you've worked for it and earned the right to see it. When people get to see the final raid right away, it degrades incentives amongst the end game raiders to finish a raid because they know that when the next patch drops everybody's going to be at the same place that they are, without doing any of the work. After a while the raiders incentive is damaged so much that they give up altogether and the community as a whole begins to break apart and divide numerously until everybody expects things to be handed to them for nothing.. Do not take what I'm about to say as an insult, but rather some very constructive criticism; it sounds a lot like Socialism to me. Do not be afraid of scaring gamers off by implementing these changes. It'll sting at first but the game will gradually heal. Old school gamers will rejoin the community and the game will regain it's epic feeling of the bonds of fellowship overcoming the hardships brought on by a powerful foe. That's the WoW we all know and love. Three simple things: Content attuned to BC difficulty, scrap the JP/VP system, and require players to complete attunement chain quests to enter raids. Please people, read what I'm saying very carefully and ask yourselves what's better.. All the loot and content you want handed to you on a silver platter? Or a challenge; an epic journey of immense proportions that gives players something to work for?
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Catarra
Drak'thul
Catarra
2/2/2013
and yes, I do realize I posted 2 months late. haha
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Catarra
Drak'thul
Catarra
2/2/2013
I've only played a few dungeons under my alt, a druid. I stopped because of the embarrassment when I wasn't able to heal the tank as he wanted. I still run some dungeons but only as a rogue now, because no one seems to expect too much from a rogue and that's kind of nice.
Takes the pressure off.
I dislike the snarly attitude of some players, this is why I prefer to play solo. It would be nice if there were more levels for dungeons and raids but til then, I'll make do with the quests and just goofing off in this incredibly beautiful world.
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Serhyn
Alterac Mountains
Serhyn
4/12/2013
@Catarra: I'm sorry that you feel that way Catarra.. Wipes used to be common back in the days of Vanilla and BC and now anytime a player, whether new or old, messes up people always seem to have something to say about it b/c they aren't getting their instant gratification fast enough.. You on the other hand are doing 'NOTHING WRONG'! You're growing and learning as a player. Sure you'll struggle at first, might even get kicked from a few groups while you do learn, but you'll get the hang of things over time! =] Try not to listen to the 'Me me me' parasites. If they want to throw a fit just think about how childish their behavior is. Good luck man. I'm rooting for you!! =]
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Serhyn
Alterac Mountains
Serhyn
4/12/2013
@Catarra: Obviously I'm not referring to everybody here there are skilled players out there who don't want people leeching off their group and that's perfectly understandable. My only problem is the people who really go overboard with it just to make people feel like crap when they're trying their hardest.
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Deathrash
Kil'jaeden
Deathrash
12/15/2012
It's very sad that blizzard are catering to players that won't (and sadly can't) learn how to build and play their character and understand the strategies of a particular pve situation. I still enjoy the game, but unfortunately the energy that was once used to overcome difficulties has shifted to being spent grinding dailies and running countless faceroll dungeons for days at a time.
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Osmeric
Azjol-Nerub
Osmeric
10/27/2012
Have you noticed how few people are doing normal mode raids in MoP? It's as if difficulty really is anathema to the vast majority of your players.
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Åxçel
Proudmoore
Åxçel
10/26/2012
Yeah, dungeons are still not hard enough, people breeze through them like freaking cake, you should make dungeons to the part of hardness that at-least Method or Dream Paragon at-least takes a week finishing heroics dungeons.
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Príncess
Lightninghoof
Príncess
10/23/2012
Not hard enough.
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So how'd that work out for ya?
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Darkshank
Skullcrusher
Darkshank
6/24/2012
You said it all Jasx this game has turned into a mainstream game that caters to the majority.Sadly the majority now adays are lazy players with no skill that want to get stuff without taking the time to learn to play there class.I can't speak for other expansions being as I just started the game in cataclysm but what I can say is that in the beginning of the expansion blizzard had the right idea.Heroics 5 mans where tough and required players to be on there toes and cc was needed on most pulls trash could actually kill you.It was great!This is the enviorment that I learned to play the game in and at first I was horrible and I got kicked from a heroic or two for doing stupid stuff but eventually I put in the work learned my class well and started putting up nice numbers.It felt good to be doing heroics and gearing up my toon for raiding which at the time I only watched videos for and hoped I would learn the game good enough to partake in it.Well after many heroics which taught me to play my class and pay attention I started to raid.Fast forward to now and there's zero challenge in any of the heroic instances they practically just throw gear at you, normal DS was a joke and took a below average guild I was in at the time only a few weeks to clear,and all the challenge has been sucked out of wow aside from heroic raiding which you need to commit time to being in a raiding guild to get.Not everyone can commit time to be in a heroic raiding guild to see a challenge in this game.In the beginning there was challenge to be found not only in heroic 5 mans but the normal mode raids also provided a nice little challenge as well.The droves of complainers ruined the nice difficulty of those dungeons and what we are stuck with today are HoT's which don't get anymore boring and awful.They also don't seem to plan to bring challenge back to 5 man content in MOP either.Instead of hard we can time are runs in the same exact difficulty setting which is a ok feature but does not take the place of actually challenging content in the first place.Tried to play the game casual being as my new job does not allow me to make raids anymore and relised that there is absolutely no fun or challenging things to do in the game to make it worth the 15 a month.Like vader said the want content easy crowd is winning aka bads and that's a player base I don't wanna be a part of so peace out wow nice knowing you
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Jasx
Mannoroth
Jasx
6/19/2012
I play this game for fun, Vader, I assume most people do the same. What's fun about sitting there spamming Arcane Blast as an Arcane Mage? What's fun about not having to Hit Cap as a tank cause you create 1000x more threat than before? There's no skill left in this game, it's just spamming the same button over and over. The entire mechanic for Ultraxion is to click one button and AoE heal.. what a joke! It stops being fun when you don't have to work for anything, there's no pride left in the game. "Oooh, check this guys! I have a 400 IL!!!"... so does every other player. It used to mean something to have good gear, it was hard to get. I'm not going to praise Blizzard for handing me a bottle and blankey, the game's a joke, not a challenge. I praised Blizzard when BC came out and Sunwell was nearly impossible, I never saw the content to be honest, I got as far as BT and a few Sunwell trash runs, but I LIKED that. I liked knowing I could IMPROVE and that if I did actually get there someday I was one of less than 10 000 to do so..... Deathwing? A joke. You could be in full Heroic gear (HoT Heroics) and down him, it's just so simple. Bring the challenge back!
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Spastek
Illidan
Spastek
7/4/2012
@Jasx: I find it incredibly ironic that this blog is literally addressing the community complaining that the game was too hard and thus no fun and a year and a half later, here everyone is complaining the game is too easy and thus not fun.

Proof that no matter they do, we won't be happy. He even says in the third paragraph and I quote

"They’re only going to get easier from here on out."

Just play the game and have fun.
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Osmeric
Azjol-Nerub
Osmeric
10/28/2012
@Spastek: It's almost as if different people were complaining each time. A radical theory, I know. Much more likely that everyone thinks together in lockstep and suddenly changed their minds, right?
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Bleda
Quel'dorei
Bleda
6/19/2012
What irritates me the most is the tanks and healers who give up on the first wipe. Normally speaking, I prefer ret. spec. I have more fun getting three hits of Art of War and burning down a boss with free exorcisms than sitting there spamming hammer of the righteous and hoping some huntard doesn't pull when he shouldn't. When I do tank, I give a PUG all the time and wipes in the world until my gear turns red before deciding to leave. So far, I've never had a group angry with me, even when we wiped 5 times, simply because I stuck with them.

That being said, I appreciate the Cata heroics, simply because it was very rare to have any problems zerging the old dungeons, including vanilla dungeons. Heck, I've been in groups where the tank had to quit early for whatever reason, and when I offered to tank, I tanked ret and the healers thanked me for bringing some excitement into their lives outside the normal boring rotations that healing a tank brings. Since hitting the cata dungeons, I had no problem pug tanking the normal dungeons in prot spec, but I don't even dare try pug tanking the heroics, simply because I personally find the fights to be more difficult.

If you think the content is "too easy" then go pvp. Some of us still find the new heroics to be adequately challenging. And to all you tanks and healers out there, don't que for the dungeon finder unless you plan on sticking with the group whether they know the fights or not. If you are easily frustrated by a bunch of newbies, then don't que, because all it does is tick us off. Everyone's got to learn at some point.
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Vâder
Aggramar
Vâder
6/19/2012
So much of this game is becoming easier is because of the consumer base. WoW was built by a company, and is maintained by a company, do you guys know why companies do this? Companies like Blizzard put out new content, and "dumb" the game down so that their user base (us) will keep paying. To many people are saying that everything is to easy or to hard, the to hard side is winning so Blizzard makes things easier so they will keep their consumer base. Unfortunatly this is how most things in our world go, and especially in our esteemed World of Warcraft.
It is because of people like us on the forums speaking down to Blizz, saying everything that they are doing wrong. What if we were to for once praise them for doing something good to the game, instead of just bashing them saying that they are all bad.

It is us that choose how this game progresses in the future, if we want to be happy gamers and continue in our World, then we need to start sucking it up and accepting what Blizzard wants to do with this game in the future.
If you don't like it, then find another game, and if you do, then continue playing in peace, not in hostility towards Blizz.
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Merylstreep
Proudmoore
Merylstreep
6/19/2012
They have seriously dumbed down wow since vanilla.....they should keep the content how it is for kids and make adult servers that are more challenging....every patch this game gets easier and easier and pretty soon its gonna turn into a runescape type of game
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Jasx
Mannoroth
Jasx
6/19/2012
@Merylstreep: It seriously is the most frustrating thing; playing this game now, that is. It's ridiculous how easy this game has become. I mean, really, how many guilds killed C'thun in Vanilla? A handful barely got past Twin Emps. Now? Something stupid like 62 Deathwing downs on the first night... I liked the challenge, it was difficult, fun, and frustrating to trial and error almost every boss, but at least it was something other than button-mashing. How many people are in Trade chat asking to PuG DS? Thousands. How many people asked to PuG AQ 40? None. People wipe more nowadays on Twin Emps than Deathwing, this game is a freaking joke. Bring back old mechanics, give bosses more health, give us less damage, give bosses more damage... give us a CHALLENGE.
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Daskullreapr
Perenolde
Daskullreapr
6/19/2012
@Jasx: While C'thun may be difficult, you have to remember that putting up a number to attest to the low difficulty of deathwing is pointless. The game has more than tripled its player population since AQ40 was first opened and it continues to grow. The game is far more popular, and while im not saying that deathwing is hard or that WoW isnt easy, you cant use numeric statistics to compare them, because in terms of numbers they dont even compare.
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Littlegoofy
Auchindoun
Littlegoofy
6/19/2012
yeah listen to this retard! He has the same point of view as the devs and ghostcrawler. Yay you have lost millions of players! WOO HOO good job. Soon this game will have no players other than idiots like this guy. But hey what do I care, bring on gw2 cya scrubs!
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Lilcritty
Shadowmoon
Lilcritty
6/17/2012
ok heres my lowly opinion, vanilla was very challenging because you had to learn the mechanics of the fights and actually learn your class, you had to basically live in the dungeons just to get your gear and the raids were hard since they took months to get your full set of gear you couldnt just get to max lvl get a bunch of boas and #@%! the content without really learning your class well. now in cata you have boas which is extremely easy to lvl and pvp with, also pvp gear is so easy to get its like full cata in a week or less. cata raids are easy since most guilds take only the highest dps, heals and such. heroics are a joke, as a 85 dk ilvl 382 i can solo heroics. the hots most tanks dont even need a healer half the time. the most challenging thing about wow now is completing all the achvs and those really arent all that hard. i would love to see the game get a little harder stop nerfing the content, if ppl wipe then they need to discuss how they could do it better not start the blame game which leads to the tank or healer leaving. as long as i have played this game i do think vanilla was the most challenging and exciting ever mainly cuz you had to had some skill to do things now its healers afking on boss fights and coming back to a tank with full health still. my healer i just throw rejuvenation on the tank and thats it cuz they never need more than that no matter what lvl ive been, seriously make it more challenging please. i know ppl will get mad cuz they cant beat something but instead of "nerf nerf" they should learn what they are doing wrong or what they could be doing better. btw its called CC ppl learn to use it, not only in pve but pvp as well sheesh you have more than just one button to spam.
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Jasx
Mannoroth
Jasx
6/19/2012
@Lilcritty: I agree completely with this post. The game really does need to stop getting nerfed and people need to learn their classes again. Remember when Seals on Pallies were 30 seconds and went away when you cast Judgement? Now all you do is spam Crusader Strike, Judgement, Templar's Verdict, and Exorcism. Remember when Holy Shock was a viable DPS spec? I miss that... I miss the days when people needed to use more than 1 button as a class, when CC was a necessity, when very few people got past T2, let alone saw T3....
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Slayér
Andorhal
Slayér
6/17/2012
i think it should be like this. the dungeon finder u can get valor and justice points but not good gear. for example the starter cata dungeons dungeon finder would give u 333 gear. Heroics would get u purple 353 gear. normals would be simple and casualish. heroics u couldnt q for and would need to get ppl from ur server and make groups for them like u did in BC. it would cater to both the casuals and hardcores. u'd give the heroic bosses more mechanics and more hp/dmg just like u do for H raids. i know these dungeons were released over a year ago but thats just what i think would be good for MOP to please everyone
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Darkshank
Skullcrusher
Darkshank
6/24/2012
@Slayér: Thats a good idea man but all we are going to get are the same easy dungeons with a timer.Oh boy blizzard a timer!Thats what iv always wanted not hard content but a freaking timer!
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Hellsrena
Shadowsong
Hellsrena
6/17/2012
The problem with the dungeons was not that the gear was below average for raid. You can competently raid the proper raids with the item lvls you got from the proceeding dungeons. As the raids got progressily closer to the death of Deathwing they got harder which is what they should have. The introduction of Looking For Raid took a huge toll on the game as people no longer had to adequately play their characters to get gear. The idea that it needs to be easy for people who cant get the basic mechanics of fights kills it for the players who have been playing since vanilla when you actually had to know how to play each class individually and couldnt faceroll for dps. The idea that the dungeons are to long is ubsurd as the dungeons from vanilla and bc where 3 times the length. People need to realize that the game will progressivly get easier as they play and learn the mechanics of their characters and the fights in the dungeons and raids. The first few weeks in new dungeons and raids should be hard. Stop nerfing cause the few 13 and 14 year olds playing think its to hard. the majority of the players left are waiting on the Mop and avoid raiding cause its old already. We where capable of downing it in a matter of weeks. Old raids like AQ tht your promoting now took months to complete proplerly and get the gear sets finished. It took me 3 weeks to gear my preist in cat where as it took 4 months of raiding in vanilla to get just the gear set. By making the raids easy you kill the time people spend on the raids. How many people really continue to raid after they realize they can complete the raid a few times and be done with getting gear. Mind you im not full heroic but its the idea that theres no real variety. You do lfr then what. guilds that only have 20 competent raiders who all have diffferat times will progress differantly then guilds with 200 players who all want to raid. iBut thats part of the game. IF you feel like the raids are too hard then you need to go review what your doing and find out why. Thats the point of PROGRESSION.
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Reeko
Dreadmaul
Reeko
6/17/2012
You should just keep dungeons challenging and hard, so when you get that one piece of armor you've been trying to get it actually means something instead off getting it for doing little.
for example, Heroic stonecore, 3rd boss was the hardest thing anyone has ever faced. And killing it was the most satisfying thing ever.
Taking that away just ruins the game, it does hit casuals hard but World of Warcraft wasn't originally a casuals game was it?
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Bleda
Quel'dorei
Bleda
6/19/2012
@Reeko: I agree with you on the armor thing. I'm working on soloing MC to get the vanilla pally gear and its frustrating that it rarely drops for me, but when a piece does, it adds excitement. the whole "token" thing kinda erks me, as it seems to make it too easy to get the tiered armor sets, unless you happen to be running with a bunch of other classes that need the same token, which for me isn't a huge problem. I very rarely run into other pallies on PUGs, and in my guild, there's only one other 85 pally and as far as I know, one 85 priest. I don't expect too much trouble getting my gear tokens. In my opinion, its more rewarding hoping that a piece of your gear drops than simply hoping that a token you know will drop does and that you win the need roll for it.
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Alyzza
Skywall
Alyzza
6/16/2012
The biggest issue with the original Cataclysm dungeons was that they were far too long to finish time-wise and they didn't offer rewards that would enable an "average" player to perform compently in the existing raids. Yes, the dedicated and the hardcore were progressing in the raids, but the more casual raiding guilds were hit hard. This is a game and everyone wants to win a little, but at a certain point, the casual player who does not posess the OCD that the hardcore do, was giving up; not because the game or dungeons were too hard, but the monotony and repititiveness to get anywhere was burning them out. And remember, unlike previous business models for MMORPGs, it was the unprecedented number of casual players that really has made WoW the phenominon it is.

The introduction of the troll dungeons worked wonders to saving my guild. Although still a little too long time-wise, at least they were providing drops and gear that made existing raid content far more accessible for casual players.
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Tbonet
Cairne
Tbonet
6/15/2012
It's not possible to build a perfect MMORPG; hell, even an MMO. There will always be players disagreeing with some aspect in any game, no matter what. Really, it all comes down to pleasing the majority of the people playing a game, and not the minority.
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Euripidis
Lightninghoof
Euripidis
6/15/2012
Is Ilvl really the basis for success. Leveling is not meant to be hard. Originally the quests were designed with level and class in mind, as well as abilities achieved at such level. At max level, you have regular dungeons and you have heroic. I like the idea of heroic being harder, otherwise it would be boring and lack interest... after all why get better loot for something that is a walk through. There is alot of people that QQ on forums, however I dont believe that either side represents the community entirely. I loved the harder dungeons, but on the other side... thinking back to wrath how many people avoided occulus? Its an easy dungeon ... but the whiners complained it was too hard.... its a mechanic based fight the same that complained on that fight are the same ones that couldnt muster the mechanics and DPS for Eye of Eternity. Blizz for all that its worth please ensure the dungeons are hard and bring back attunements so that the whiners that think its too hard to hit dungeons or raids will be prepared when they actually hit that content
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Hyped
Lightninghoof
Hyped
6/15/2012
I get the sense that a lot of people posting in this thread don't realize its basis was a year and a half ago.
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Durandir
Mannoroth
Durandir
6/14/2012
To make it short and sweet: dungeons (and raids) aren't all that hard, it's poor decisions made by the group -usually as individuals. DPS not ccing, tanks thinking we don't need cc (which I still do whether or not they like it), not waiting for healers to finish gaining mana, incorrect gearing. Most of what Alicia said about Cata being brutal on healers is true, but again, that's because of poor choices of individuals. For instance: although a Classic dungeon, I had a bear tank in Shadowfang Keep, fighting Commander Springvale, standing in Shield of the Perfidious ( the frontal purple cone blast) like it was what he was SUPPOSED to do; I weep for whenever they decide to tank higher level dungeons with practice like that. While it may not be sever now, reaching the heroic version and still doing that is probable cause for an instant wipe.
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Ziphon
Arygos
Ziphon
6/14/2012
I dont mind them being hard, so long as the waits arent an hour long. The key thing was that there were no tanks or heals around, leading the dungeons to have queues of 50 min and up. I really wouldnt mind hard dungeons, but they shouldn't take more than 15 min to get into.
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Ruiny
Kil'jaeden
Ruiny
6/14/2012
Dungeons and Raids do not need to be nerfed, now theres that one in every 10 fights that may need it but honestly when i first started up wow again it was after Cata release, one of my guildies kept telling me how hard heroic dungeons were compared to wrath. Though I am a vet wow player I found them not to be nearly as hard as my guildie led me up to believe. They we're challenging though and made gearing up a little more satisfying. I certainly enjoyed that satisfaction so please Blizzard, it doesn't need to be nerfed.
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Kuedraei
Frostmourne
Kuedraei
6/14/2012
This is really disappointing to read considering the current state of Cata. The only redemption is in the fact that on beta, some of the heroics are legitimately difficult. Some of this is due to some weird mechanics, but mostly the dungeons present very solid difficulty. As long as you guys don't do another 180 and nerf the content into oblivion, I'm happy.
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Ganana
Dawnbringer
Ganana
6/13/2012
mmhm
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Hilbur
Proudmoore
Hilbur
4/28/2012
In order to keep dungeons from being too easy or too hard, could they put in a system that examines the average ilvl of the group and then scale the difficulty based on that? It would keep dungeons fun and still challenging if a system like this could be implemented.
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Darkinin
Kil'jaeden
Darkinin
4/9/2012
Have to love how you guys are outright flip-flopping, now.

Cata: "We want Heroics to be hard!"
Mists: "We want Heroics to be as faceroll as Wrath!"

The Developers flip-flopping should be a clear sign that something's going to break soon. World of Warcraft's days are clearly numbered, now.
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Lavinnelly
Dath'Remar
Lavinnelly
4/12/2012
@Darkinin: its the community that is flip-flopping.
wrath: "heroics are too easy"
early cata: "heroics are too hard"
late cata: "heroics are too easy"