Ghostcrawler Developer Blog: Raid Progress
We addressed our views on dungeon difficulty several weeks ago, and in the interim many players have asked for us to comment on raid difficulty.
I chose to use the word "progress" in the title for this blog quite intentionally. We think progression is the key to players having fun. When groups stop making progress, the members get frustrated. When individuals feel like they are stuck, that’s when they start to lose interest. I don’t think it strictly has to do with the flow of loot being shut off. A big part of it is the sense that as you climb up that mountain, you are getting closer and closer to the summit instead of just sliding back down to base camp at the end of each day.
Let’s consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you’re probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current “finished” guilds did, then you’re probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available. However, if that break point happens too soon, too easily, for too many guilds, then the raiding game can feel empty. Players run out of content before they are ready to run out of content, if that makes sense. Now let’s consider the other extreme, where a guild just has no realistic chance of ever beating a boss. This can be particularly demoralizing if it’s the first boss, but it can happen at any time. That guild might not feel like they are making progress. Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there’s a good chance they’ll start to see burnout and thinning ranks. The sweet spot in raid balance for us to hit is that everyone feels like they can still make progress. Content that is too hard or too easy doesn’t meet that goal.
Raid encounters, to some extent, nerf themselves. This is because every week, the raid members acquire more and more gear. Secondarily, the community acquires more and more knowledge and experience, which translates into better videos, strategy guides, or even UI mods, as well as just more players who have experienced the encounters firsthand. Each week that you are able to kill any bosses, your group’s gear improves overall, through Valor points if nothing else. When Firelands is available, everyone’s gear will quickly take a step up in quality. This will give you an even better chance to beat those bosses that are blocking you now. We wouldn’t be surprised to see some guilds try the first few Firelands bosses one night, while using the next night to go back to get the head and chests from Nef and Cho’gall in order to complete their set bonuses, that is until acquiring new set bonuses becomes feasible. On some bosses, though, better armor and weapons may not be enough because some mechanics just can’t easily be outgeared. To mitigate that problem, our tendency is to nerf content over time just to make sure a wide variety of players see it. The trailblazers get to see the fights before anyone else, but we don’t lock the dungeon door behind them.
Having said all of that, there are some encounters that still need adjustment. Heroic 10-player modes can often be the hardest to balance, because those groups just don’t have access to the sheer number of tools in one group that the larger raids have. You’ve probably seen some hotfixes go out recently and we might make more adjustments in 4.1. We’ll continue to monitor progress and make adjustments when we feel the time is right.
Overall, we are pretty happy with our current raid balance. Most guilds that are trying seem to be making some progress. On some realms, we’re seeing pickup groups for at least the earlier bosses, which seems appropriate for where we are in the content cycle. The Heroic versions are particularly challenging, though even in that case, there is a gradient with easier and very difficult bosses. For those of you who feel like you are stuck on progression, we’d like to hear more about why. Are you trying to PUG the encounters? Do you have a very casual guild with a lot of different players each night? Is the problem that you’re undergeared or that the mechanics are too unforgiving? What are the mechanics that are really hard for raid leadership to explain or even understand? Are your tanks exploding, or are your healers running out of mana, or are you failing the berserk timers? We have data on all of this, but it’s useful to hear it from your point of view as well. Remember, our goal is that you beat the fight because you understood the mechanics and executed your tanking, DPS, and healing around those constraints. If you’re just kind of powering through a boss ability or phase that you don’t really understand, then it’s going to be a lot harder for you. As always, feedback on which encounters you are enjoying and which ones you never want to see again is also appreciated, though we’ve gotten a lot of that already, and are designing your Firelands foes with that in mind.
P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can’t wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them.
Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He wipes to the elevator boss.
Comments (2,260)
Lightbringer
it would be as a EDM...estimated damage measure, sounds catchy :O!
Cenarius
Elune
Blade's Edge
Deathwing
p.s It really shows who knows how to play their class now. Paladins i played with in wotlk as healers or tanks had to switch to ret because it was just too hard for them to play those roles.
Kargath
Spinebreaker
Kargath
Elune
Kargath
Burning Legion
On another note, if you think he's elitist, then you should seriously go talk to people from the EU raiding guilds. Those guys are elitist, not this guy bragging about his Maloriak kill in all greens.
Zangarmarsh
Doomhammer
Burning Legion
Thrall
The new content isn't to bridge the gap between current heroic lvl gear and the raids. It's to help gear people up for the new raid (or raids) that will be coming out.
The content isn't too hard if you put the small amount of time into re-learning how your class mechanics work.
Do that and i'm SURE you will see a noticed improvement on your 5 mans, and if you want to raid, take the time to watch the videos, read the mechanics of the encounters. THAT is the one thing that any raid leader will take into account if you've never been there.
And for whoever's going to read this and think "Well you haven't cleared everything," that may be true, but i have watched the videos on every raid boss and read all the information on their abilities. That's part of my job as a tank.
Raiding takes far more effort then 5 mans. Always has and always will. Yet it's anything but impossible.
I can't say it enough, you have to learn your class again. Cata changed the way they ALL play.
Kul Tiras
Thrall
For a DK strength used to be the end all be all of everything, but not so much any more. I've seen some with mastery stacked through the roof, some with crit so high it's a wonder they see anything but crit hits. Hell, with my spec the way it is i get more of a benefit out of the "Hurricane" enchant then "Rune of the Fallen Crusader" (totally odd but true) even though the rune enchant would give me just around 600 strength when it procs.
Just one more example how EVERYTHING is different, but still fun.
And as for only downing the BH boss? that's still a raid boss :) May be "only" equated as the same as VoA but it's still a good job.
Zangarmarsh
Blizzard already took the 3hrs trash clear on raids. The only thing gamers have to worry about in 10/25 NORMAL raids is the boss mechanics, and bosses that once the mechanics are learned and applied correctly a guild can in a matter of a few hrs clear all the normal bosses. Specially now players have had the time to learn the fights no matter how slow progression is at least in normal raids. Most 'real' casual raiding guilds are already working on hard modes and the highest hardcore raiding guilds have cleared most hard mode bosses and without mentioning too much, some have already cleared content (and it was not resent, was some time ago!).
The content as is its fine for everyone. Some players just want everything given to them. The proof is in the progression numbers.
Alleria
Proudmoore
Doomhammer
Burning Legion
@Blackstone: I don't see anywhere in Ghostcrawler's post that says he doesn't like casuals. And I still don't see any proof that a majority of the playerbase is casual. I'd love to see that by the way.
@Pugmaster: If you look back, the first raids of BC and Wrath were absolutely, ridiculously hard for the first few months. Before raids, were heroics. BC Heroics sucked cause they were so hard. Wrath heroics sucked until Ulduar was released. If I had somewhere to show you the kill rate for those bosses then, I'd show you. But I don't claim random percentages.
Tanaris
I'll never see any raids cause my guild (not this one) , is a casual guild and there is no way we will be raiding in Cata , maybe when the next ex-pac comes out we will cata raid , who knows if people will even be around then
My question would be , why spend 1,000 of hours and im sure millions of dollars on content only hard core raiders will ever get to see????
Thrall
This is my main. Tank DK. and i personally put out 3 to 4k hps in EVERY boss fight. More so when i pop my cd's.
Have you checked out specs for a resto Shammy? Have you looked up any of the info that's all over the web for hints as to how to conserve your mana better?
I'm not saying you're a fail healer, but every little bit of knowledge helps.
I'm not a hardcore player by any means, but i did spend a bit of time reading up on DK's and how the mechanics of the class got changed (and believe me they changed a lot). The little bit of reading i've done has helped me immensely. Knowing the numbers behind what my abilities do, knowing which cd's to stack in what order to maximize their effect. all that comes into play with all classes. weather you're a tank, healer, or dps.
Arthas
Chromaggus
Bleeding Hollow
Azjol-Nerub
Detheroc
Also, what is hard to balance is 10 man Heroic, not regular. While yes it is extremely difficult for reduced loot and more headaches from lack of abilities I would rather beat my head against the wall with it than to have never even been allowed the opportunity in the first place. To be stuck on the sidelines for the entire 1/2 of this tier would leave a foul taste in my mouth to say the least (as it always has).
Laughing Skull
Exodar
Azjol-Nerub
Kirin Tor
Every fight is a pressure-intense situation and while I know that was your intention, when every single fight pushes your players to the limits, you're going to experience burn-out, and fast.
That's why this content needs to be nerfed. Not because a challenge is unwelcome, but because it's no fun, and exhausting to play. Nerf it, let raiders experience this content, and move onto Firelands, scatching off these raids as a lesson learned in punishing your player base.
Azjol-Nerub
Nesingwary
Say, for example, that guild A is tops on your server. But they are all hard core raiders and don't like helping new players. But guild B doesn't mind helping newer raiders (realizing that more players getting experience leads to more experienced players) so they opt to be a mentor guild. They could then pick a smaller guild or two to link to in a subset of the DF system. So instead of PUGging with a vast number (cross server) or with random chat people, you'd have a larger subset than a single guild but not an overwhelming number.
Feathermoon
Right now there's very little an experienced guild can do outside the time & resource intensive activities of creating videos and maintaining blogs to help out the newbies & stragglers. Any successful players or guilds that do this would have to do it on top of the many hours devoted to their progression guild's own raids. Raid locks are just too prohibitive now to allow experienced players in progression guilds to lend a hand, now 10s & 25s count for the same raid-locks.
It's true too that watching a video & reading a blog can only go so far: the reality is most people learn better by doing; being academic about it, is well, academic. These things don't help the struggling players & guilds with direct execution, especially those who already are road-blocked, which may lead to them falling even further behind with progression or falling apart entirely. As most realise, raiding guilds will only find it harder and harder to recruit capable players once their stalled progression becomes ‘old content’.
Blogs & videos in the end can only be supplements to the real thing: nothing compares to the actual experience of being in a raid. Further progression won't happen, if newer players, and inexperienced guilds are unable to get past the first few punishing kills before collapsing under the punishment of painfully slow or stymied progression.
Let's hope there's more help soon so the stream of newer players getting actual experience (and that all important progression) doesn’t dry-up once Firelands comes out. Once 4.2 appears, it might lead to an even widening gulf between those progressing on active content, and the rest of the stuff players may only be able to PUG (like nearly every dungeon till 85) because raiding guilds seem to live or die on being able to provide players with an experience of progression on current content.
To have a hope of getting into a viable raiding guild: players need practical experience & achievements through actually taking part in kills on the current tier; it is what always has counted in the past. Players who fall behind the current tier sadly will find it increasingly difficult to be recruited into progression guilds without that. The harsh reality is: the majority of raiding guilds are only found progressing in current content.
So if the theory of ‘catch-up guilds’ promoted by Blizzard here doesn't catch-on, and there’s not enough ‘catch-up’ progression guilds raiding ‘old content’ after 4.2 comes out, then there won't be a real or practical way new players find a bridge to current content. More than likely, raiding guilds with progression will still only be interested in pursing the latest tier. Restrictive raid lock-outs will continue to mean successful raiding guilds won't be able loan capable players to help the inexperienced players & guilds get any momentum going. Given how much like a ghost-town most ‘old content’ rapidly becomes, it does look a bit grim right now for those who will be faced with having to pug progression in the previous tier.
Guillotaur, may be it’d be good if you could create a thread for your suggestion so it could be better discussed in detail than we can do here.
In addition to the simple kudos of being helpful, aside from realm resuscitating aspects, a Mentoring system could have incentives built in for the progression guilds: giving them more achievements and rewards. Added to that guilds could once again start ‘junior’ guilds, or adopt ‘squire’ guilds whereby they can train newer & less experienced players on the previous tiers. Right now your idea or allowing successful guilds to mentor the rest might become critical in helping players bridge ‘old content’. Pugging it likely will continue to be painful, which could end-up having a high attrition rate among the newer players or on players who’ve fallen-behind on the progression curve. It might be an essential tool for recruitment in later tiers of Cataclysm too, if the tier gap won’t bridge itself.
In Wrath it wasn’t a problem, because as many posted here ‘old content’ very quickly became trivial. Yet, if it’s Blizzard’s goal if for the old content not to be trivialised for the newer, inexperienced & lapsed-progression players, then it could prove a serious gap inducer. Mid-tier gear dropping from 5 mans may help progression guilds gear up new ‘alternate’ characters; yet gear alone might not bridge that progression gap if most guilds stop raiding it once it becomes seen as ‘old content’. Meaning of course there may be fewer and fewer guilds present to bridge the gap to whatever the current tier becomes, as more and more tiers are added later in the expansion.
[continued next post...]
Feathermoon
A Mentoring system, as a means of experienced guilds helping promote raid guild growth on their servers via more practical means; actually being able to allow their capable members in another guild’s raids, might save us from that deadening progression gap once 4.2 hits. It might also foster a willingness among players to be more helpful to those less progressed, rather than the bitter toing-and-froing that seems to be dividing the community.
It at least, might be a way of over-coming the inward-looking focus, and detrimental aspects of the new guild features.
Mentor guilds will be able to:
- help 'apprentice' guilds succeed in progression
- recruit new players and build a network of progression guilds below them
- get more achievements & rewards
- promote the growth of successful raiding on their servers
- be a good example to other raiding guilds on their realm.
Keep the new ideas coming :-)
Elune
Moonrunner
1-The players complaining Blizzard ruined the game and they are going to quit.
To you I say, who was it that made this game in the beginning? Yea, it was the same bunch of people. Vanilla WoW seems better in your memory because we all tend to remember the grass being greener, its natural. The fact is, the encounters were not that complex. We had so few stats and buttons that it was hard to be bad. Now we have more choices, more strats to choose from, more ways to gear. Now It's more difficult, but not even close to impossible and i really believe you have to not even give raiding an honest chance to think otherwise. If your looking for mindless repetition go check out runescape.
2-The players who progress slowly, get stuck on certain bosses, and feel progression is tedious.
To you I say, This is wow. I have been around since the beginning, and this is how it has always been, minus WotLK near the end because gear was too overpowered that it made up for mistakes in mechanics. You can't do that anymore. You can't expect someone with engulfing magic to stand in the group for more than a second and it be ok, or to be taking your sweet time hitting that gong. You don't need suberbly geared people by any means, you need at least 10 folks who are willing to do the fight perfectly. So before you ask for a crutch, which will NOT make you a better raider and WILL make you run into the same problem in newly released content, try settling for nothing less than a perfect attempt. If you do that and still cant progress, then yea maybe something is wrong. But if guys who play 2-3hours a day 3 days a week can do it, so can you.
So please. Stop complaining. Your forcing blizzard yo dumb down the game to keep a portion of their client base to maintain profits. Think before you speak, your asking for changes that will make this game into any other mediocre copycat.
Ysondre