Dev Watercooler: The View From 10,000 Feet

Dev Watercooler: The View From 10,000 Feet

So how is the view from way up here? It’s great actually -- we’re really happy with how Cataclysm is going so far, and we have big surprises on the horizon. On the other hand, there are details you can see at ground level that you can’t make out from 10,000 feet.

When we started these blogs, the idea was to foster developer communication to the players without some of the inherent problems of posting in forums. Some players have pointed out recently, and we totally agree, that the blogs up until now have been from a very high vantage point. We looked for topics with universal interest that would feel important and newsworthy. That has worked overall, but we also feel like we’ve lost something from when I used to be down in the metaphorical trenches talking to players in the forums.

So we’re going to try something a little different. We’re going to unleash some blogs that are much more conversational and less proclamational (that's a word now). If we deliver on this, it will hopefully feel like you’re eavesdropping on our design meetings. You won’t always learn a lot about exciting new features coming to the game, but you will (ideally) learn something about the design process itself. (When we have big, exciting news to share, or ‘State of the Game’ style blogs, we’ll still do those as well.)

But to pull off this more casual blog style, let’s establish a few ground rules:

1)      No promises. I’m going to be talking about a lot of things we might do or things we could do. You shouldn’t interpret this brainstorming as patch notes. Our creative process is insanely iterative. We might pitch dozens of ideas before we find one we like. That can be really exhausting if you’re not used to it. If you’re more interested in final decisions and not idea churn, then this style of blog won’t be for you.

2)      Don’t read too much between the lines. I’m going to point out a lot of design flaws in our game. “Oh no! Goatcaller admitted WoW was deeply flawed! It’s shark-jumping time!” Look, Blizzard is very critical about our own designs. There is virtually nothing in World of Warcraft that could not be improved. That has always been the case and will continue to be the case. Just because I’m going to be sharing that more frankly with you doesn’t mean that the game now has more cracks in its foundation than it ever did. There is an old saying (misattributed, from what I understand, to Otto Bismarck) that laws are like sausages; it is best not seeing them being made. My old friend and mentor Bruce Shelley used to apply the same maxim to game design.

3)      No complaints about the topic. If we didn’t have an interesting discussion about a topic recently, e.g. shaman mechanics, I’m not going to invent one. That doesn’t mean that the class is perfect, or that we don’t love shaman players, or that the shaman class has no direction, or that the class design is frozen in carbonite. I’m not going to keep hash marks next to every class and spec to make sure I’ve covered their "Very Important Issues" lately in a blog. World of Warcraft design being what it is, we’ll probably eventually get around to talking about everyone on here, but it may take weeks or months or years. My team is responsible for areas of the game including classes, items, encounters, trade skills, achievements, combat, and UI, so my blogs will probably stick to those topics.

Okay, all that preamble is out of the way now. I’ll probably refer back to it sometimes, if we have some players stomping all over the ground rules.

One topic we’ve been discussing lately is the role of Hit and Expertise on tank gear (or more precisely, plate tanking gear). The conventional wisdom is that Hit and Expertise are threat stats, and you may need to swap them out with some of your mitigation stats depending on the situation. Realistically, unless you severely overgear the content, we don’t think that is actually true. Tanks almost always worry about survival first and foremost, which totally makes sense, and are willing to trade off threat stats for better mitigation in almost all situations. It’s much harder to progress if the tank explodes than it is if the cat occasionally pulls aggro. (It’s not quite that simple, but I’m going to gloss over details and exceptions since I spent so much text on the preamble up above).

Once upon a time, taunts could miss, and so Hit was marginally more interesting than it is today. Once upon a time, having a boss parry your attacks could speed up its swing timer, which turned Expertise into a (often weak) survival stat. Boss parries felt very random though, both in the sense that sometimes the tank would suddenly take much more damage than anticipated and there was no easy way to know which bosses had parry speed up. (Today, you can assume none of them do.) Until recently, interrupts could miss, but asking a tank to stack a bunch of Hit just for those few opportunities when they were probably going to hit anyway but disaster would occur if they did not felt crummy too.

The problem is that there aren’t a lot of stats that are interesting to tanks. Stamina and Armor are great, but their stat budget is often in lockstep with item level. (It would be interesting to consider if we could make that not the case once again, but that’s the topic for another blog.) We got rid of Defense as a stat that tanks needed to worry about. We have managed to make Mastery pretty good to excellent for tanks, so that’s at least one stat they like to see. Dodge and (if you’re a plate-wearer) Parry are good, and slightly interesting because of talents like Hold the Line. But beyond that, it starts to go downhill. Sure Haste and Crit can sometimes be fun, but really they often aren’t worth the trade off. That leaves us with Hit and Expertise. We’d like to make them more interesting to tanks. But how?

One way is by turning them into defensive stats. They are defensive stats for Blood death knights, because the DK self-healing is tied into Death Strike, which can miss. It might be possible to do something similar for the other classes. Imagine if Shield Block had to actually hit the target. Presumably you raise your shield, but not high enough to intercept the incoming blow. Now hit becomes a mitigation stat for warriors as well. We might have to adjust the mitigation amount on Shield Block or give warriors a small Hit bonus so Hit capping wasn’t totally unreasonable, but you get the basic idea. You could do the same with paladins (make Holy Shield more interesting?) and druids as well (Savage Defense could proc on a hit).

Is this a good idea? We’re not sure yet. You won’t see this change in the 4.1 patch for certain. There are trade-offs to making Hit and Expertise more valuable. Gearing as a tank might be more fun for experienced players, but it also might be more challenging for less experienced players. The number of struggling tanks in your Dungeon Finder groups might go up. Some less knowledgeable players (and to be fair, this stuff doesn’t exactly explain itself on the character sheet) might stack Hit way too high at the expense of a more valuable mitigation stat, such as mastery.

It is the kind of thing we’re talking about though, and if you want to make a contribution to the tanking forums but aren’t quite sure on a topic, here is one potential possibility.

-Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He still has Buru’s Skull Fragment.

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Topas
Caelestrasz
Topas
3/28/2012
i want the crab as my pet so i can say''Show me to the quest part'' it whould be so mush easyer to get it finished
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Skybane
Thorium Brotherhood
Skybane
3/6/2012
I wanna know how many people rushed off to wowhead to see what "Buru’s Skull Fragment." was.
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Limegurl
Norgannon
Limegurl
3/2/2012
I am in 100% agreement with the statement that Enrayged made. I too would love to see the shift/click on pets as well as characters.
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Akulin
Darrowmere
Akulin
2/28/2012
I want one a lot it will be a good replcement for my crimson snake lol
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Riotwolf
Thunderhorn
Riotwolf
2/11/2012
i want one
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Dimitar
Garona
Dimitar
2/10/2012
@Ghostcrawler I see your point about tanks hit and expertise. But there is the other side of the coin, DPS has to max out hit because hitting a target is a big part in damaging it (duhh lol). And then they have secondary stats such as crit and mastery. IF you choose to make hit/exp a vital stat for tanks, theres 2 things no gear piece, except the rogue daggers part of the legendary quest line, has high enough secondary stats to where reforging out of dodge, parry or mastery into hit/exp, would be a good idea for MOST taks, those less than heroicly geared.

Second issue, WHEN would one stat become less important. Warriors still struggle to figure out dodge or parry? Some people think they have a clue, but they all say "best keep within 1%", sorry but that's not a deffinitive answer. Maybe, I think, and possibly, are not words/phrase used to describe a confirmed theory. My point is, there has to be a better way of defining secondary stats other than just giving each one a utility and having tanks use all 5 (dodge, parry, mastery, hit and expertise). That would be overwhelming even for "professional" tanks. "Stats overwhelm me!"

Reasoning three: If a mage has to worry about 2 stats and have 2 to "fool around" with, healers have only 2 stats that they can play with and spirit. Do you really think bourdening tanks with all 5 is a good thing to do for the comunity. We are already a rare sight (and i'm not talking about the druid in DPS gear with mastery queued up as a tank, that's not a tank, it's a heal sink). Do you really want to open up that can of worms? Remember why you got rid of defense rating? Now you want to call it hit/exp?

Personal note: Tanking has become stale, sit there and take hits, occasionally swap with the "off-tank" so you drop a debuff of some sort. I love the ideas in MoP, (even if i still don't know if I like the panda idea, you should use it to have some sort of "Save the Pandas" promotion, again i digress). Back to tanking, Best way to make tanks feel good is give each class a perk. Druids and DKs have high damage out-put, paladins have the blessings nd some other random sparkles i kow nothing about, people just like them, warriors... we take more magic damage than most, even with shield block being up at the right times (e.g. Zonn'Ozz's psychic ... thing), we do take much less physical damage IF and only IF we don't get an armor debuff, which is every boss that deals physical damage has a sort of armor sundering, including Morchok heroic. Warriors also deal the least damage compared to other tanks with similar stats/gear. So why does my raid need me? Other than my skill as a player there is NO reason anyone to invite me, a worrior, to a raid.

It is late in the expanssion to worry about secondary stats, sir. Lets just finish off the Cataclysm and then worry about MoP game play. I believe most of the work you put into Cata will become moot in MoP. So relax, put your feet up, haters gonna hate. Remember "hate the game not the player"? Well this is sort what has hapened.
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Contageous
Nagrand
Contageous
2/10/2012
Blizz dev team. u guys work really hard to accommodate millions of ppl. the wiser of us know u can never please em all, so far in 2 years i can truly say "Thank you for a great game where both kids and adults can find a fun way to forget that life is full of reasons to complain"

Satisfied Customer.
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Zeues
Tanaris
Zeues
2/10/2012
The view from 10,000 feet? Mount Olympus. Do they think they are gods?
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Contageous
Nagrand
Contageous
2/10/2012
@Zeues: yes maybe someone should have said that... but not someone with ur name:)
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Linxs
Stormscale
Linxs
3/3/2012
@Zeues: that is funny coming from a guy named after one of the greek gods.
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Metalchic
Gorefiend
Metalchic
2/9/2012
a huge oportunity was missed iwth cataclysm quests for more immersive storytelling, the cataclysm happend yeah ok whatever back on with day to day life. and you guys missed the whole oportunity to like start with the cataclysm happening as you are leveling and getting through it. such a questing curve could make room for revamps of bc and wotlk areas to acomodate the current timeline.
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Callea
Azjol-Nerub
Callea
11/19/2011
I much prefer the tone of these types of blogs than feeling like im reading from a politician, altho i do kinda go back to my teenage years whenever i see the "rules posted" in my face but hey..anyway! personally, i DO tank & i really like the stuff the way it is. being that it isnt wrath anymore, stam (imo) shouldnt be stacked like its the number one priority, we should be worrying more about dodge, expertise surely & such again (again just my opinion) idk..what about something like how you guys have the dev water coolers spotlighted here, on the startup page, we have monthly themed contests & have players send in their favorite wow related articles on how to say tank, heal or do dps with a certain class for instance? e.g. we pick 6 top articles, feature them on the start up page so all players see them, YOU GUYS pick the winning articles, it helps players keep up with the rate of change, keeps players WANTING to read up on stuff (face it everyone wants to "win") so youre not "feeling" like youre being forced to read up so to speak, & its not changing the game too drastically further, but yet its a POSITIVE approach while remaining kinda neutral. its up to us the players to partcipate in idk, just something that came to mind when i read this! thought provking tho, but really, only thing id change is seeing MORE tank gear around otherwise, i think its just great the way it is!
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Dimitar
Garona
Dimitar
2/10/2012
@Callea: You don't have to read up to be good tank. Just as you make changes as your healer. How was healing me? Different, better/worse from last week? Look at addons that colect over all data on you, healing taken, damage taken (those won't be equal) and damage done. Also you should know what your threat level (not %) is. I stay at max all the time, even when I am being dodged/parried several time in a row. But you need damage, that's where your stamina comes in with your hit and expertise. Why do you need damage? Fights such as the boat in Dragon Soul, and Alisrazor in Firelands, (now that you out-gear it, it doesn't matter, but it did).

If you are a cassual, you do 5 mans and LFR, you can use meters to compare your self to other tanks take your damage taken add healing taken divide by 2, do the same for the other tank and divide his results by yours, you should get a result greater than 1. If you see a trend where you seem to be getting >1 all the time, you are over-geared for LFR/5mans. You need to do some raids and see what hapens, if you are getting less than 1 ti means you are taking a lot of damage and a lot of healing compared to the other tanks. That's when you go and you make changes. Hope this helps.
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Gobuckeyes
Aerie Peak
Gobuckeyes
11/13/2011
Just tossing out an idea . What about something like we have in firelands dailies but set up more so we could see and expierence the new content. What i am talking about would be a group to go with you thru the 5 or even 10 man content. I dont even care if it would drop rewards, just seeing and learning the way Blizz intended for it to be ran would be value enough. You could even expand that by having merc's for higher and drop the rewards down by how much of the group was made up of mercs. Just food for thought.
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Blueweaver
Stormscale
Blueweaver
2/9/2012
@Gobuckeyes: Spot on Dude!! That would be great for those not in guilds and for those with lower Gear scores because of all the hating going on with that. It really sucks that you have to wait 20 min for a group to raid with and the tank and healer leave after checking your gear. Then you have to wait for more.
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Daetra
Stonemaul
Daetra
11/9/2011
I agree with Tyranthraxus. The other day my husband and I were in an arena against a warrior and something else. The warrior charged my partner, a resto shaman, around a pillar in Blades' Edge Arena. IN A COMPLETE HALF CIRCLE. That is not cool at all.... Pleaseee fix LOS.
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Ateyourlawn
Stonemaul
Ateyourlawn
11/11/2011
@Daetra: This
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Tyranthraxus
Khadgar
Tyranthraxus
10/23/2011
To put my rant below in simple terms, solid geometry or GTFO lol!!!
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Tyranthraxus
Khadgar
Tyranthraxus
10/23/2011
OK all your stuff is totally cool u added, but there is one major thing you guys never fix that is a basic game mechanic. Solid object geometry. Like hunters/other ranged prof being able to shoot through 10 feet of solid dirt in warsong gulch. magic beams going through rock ect.. running and line of sighting people in pvp is not existent in world of warcraft. Which makes the game very unreal and allow people to camp grave yards in manner realistically the should not be able to. The pandas, big red evil dragons are awesome, fix some simple programming in your geometry dept. want to make me probably a bunch of other people happy add solid geometry to world object from attacks them shouldn't got through them. Come on guys.
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Chumpys
Haomarush
Chumpys
9/22/2011
Honestly from my point of view as a new tank progressing through firelands and onto heroic firelands I felt a huge difference in the way I play and how I use to before 4.2. When I was tanking regular firelands I was in BoE epics and spotty trinkets. Now I am full tier and with heroic loot as well. After I got geared I realized that gemming for Strength and Mastery instead of Parry and Mastery seemed to be more beneficial for me as a tank (contributing to my lack of dps). This seemed reasonable to me since all the websites and warrior tanks say to aim around 16% parry 16% dodge. I am around there and at times above it with my procs. I could tell that I was not having to pop my cooldowns in order to stay alive and that mitigation is no longer a concern to me with close to 60% block. Therefor gemming for Strength and Mastery increases my block while giving me increased attack power and also a small increase in parry for the additional strength thus giving my mitigation a further boost while contributing to my ownage. I no longer reforge out of hit or expertise, infact I rather look for items that could give me an over all increase in the things that im lacking (aka more crit, hit exp). I have also followed another Warrior tank on his mindset of how he plays his toon. By simply replacing my Helm of Blazing Glory with the [Greathelm of the Voracious Maw], and replacing the Meta Socket with a overall Crit bonus and changing out my Mandible of Beth'tilac with an Obsidian Cleaver I can easily pull 15-20k Steady as a tank without any lust of crazy buffs. With all my regular tanking gear I only pull around 12-16k bursts with 92 point something mitigation. With those item replacements I only drop 2 points in mitigation but gain around 5-10k DPS. So that is my point basically, my aim is not to become an unhittable or rock-mode tank but to be a solid, healable tank that can pull 5k less dps than his Melee dps. Point in case, in order for tanks to become more challenging, more fun, more interesting, they need to be rewarded for using proper rotation (boosts in dps) and changing how Mitigation Cooldowns like you suggested with Shield Block. Tha'd be pretty badass.
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Dimitar
Garona
Dimitar
2/10/2012
@Chumpys: I see your point and I will try regemming (speccialy now that I have epics gems from DS). But i have to dissagree with you on being unhittable, we are already behind DKs on mitigation, and we have to work extra hard to do 80% of their damage, I don't think that falling even further behind is a good idea. I am at 101.2% CTC which means bosses have a 1.7% chance to land a direct hit. I can afford to lose 1.2% since that leaves me unhittable for big mobs and adds such as the adds on the boat. 92% of mitigation is not bad for 391 ish gear.
Glad to see a brother warrior thinking outside the box!
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Nathanial
Tanaris
Nathanial
9/10/2011
So are they suggesting something to the effect of:
Armor / Stamina > Mastery > Dodge / Parry > Haste / Crit > Hit / Expertise

or something to that effect - until further notice?
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Deathjaws
Alleria
Deathjaws
9/20/2011
@Nathanial: its armor/stam > mastery >dodge/parry >hit/expertise > haste/crit
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Ahruuitwa
Dentarg
Ahruuitwa
8/22/2011
tanking isnt that hard im level 70 and tank tbc heriocs in full pvp gear tanks got to know when to use aoe abilitys
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Beretosman
Korialstrasz
Beretosman
6/20/2011
They should add a tutorial on how to tank on your toon and include practice mobs.
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Peephole
Zangarmarsh
Peephole
8/19/2011
@Beretosman: Right click, hit buttons, make mobs angry. If you're REALLY pro... Read tooltips/descriptions, use abilities that compliment one another.. or in a Warrior's case..

Charge, Rend, Thunderclap, cleave until Thunderclap is available and shockwave accordingly. tanking is faceroll. :D
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Pandaxpressd
Madoran
Pandaxpressd
8/23/2011
@Peephole: mhmm lol
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Eettnnh
Stormreaver
Eettnnh
6/13/2011
I have bad keybinds... plus I barely do any damage although I fight like a madman.I use everything in my power. attacks, loot that does damage, the environment, the players, and local NPCs that would be more than happy to kill my opponent. although putting all that into 2 or 3 attacks would be nice.
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Brutaladin
Burning Blade
Brutaladin
6/7/2011
shift/clicking a person would be nice as i find myself looking at there gear or tree and they log or leave it would be nice to have it show up like the dressing room as a box...
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Alish
Baelgun
Alish
6/3/2011
In regards to the threat increase from more hit and expertise and such, I can't say I've felt a need to increase my threat generation. I just have never had problems with threat, and thus could better use those stats on defensive stats.
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Enrayged
Kel'Thuzad
Enrayged
5/7/2011
I would like to be able to shift-click on a linked pet to view it's 3d model, kinda like when you shift-click a piece of gear and you see it on your character. would that be possible?
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Hodyben
Bronzebeard
Hodyben
4/26/2011
hello ghostcrawler, when will this be made advalable?
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Eettnnh
Stormreaver
Eettnnh
6/13/2011
@Hodyben: ;it will begin shortly. 'but whe..' ;please refrain from speaking about the subject; 'but I just want to kno..' 'this topic is irrelivent right now. we will do it when we do it.; 'bu..' MESSAGE: You have been removed from player interface. Please contact blizzard for more information.
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Maeghen
Aman'Thul
Maeghen
4/26/2011
I get why they want us to use the hit and expertise, and I know it makes it bit easier on me as a tank. The reason why I have reforgerd all of my threat stats into survival stats is because I just feel too squishy at 26 expertise and 8% hit. I was always hit and expertise capped in wrath, and when I started tanking heroics at 85 I had set up my gear that way too. The end result is that my healers had a hard time keeping me up. I don't know if this is something anyone else has experienced or not, but this is the single biggest reason why I stopped worrying about expertise or hit. I have slight problems on initial threat every now and then, but when vengeance stacks up it doesn't matter anymore.
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Maeghen
Aman'Thul
Maeghen
4/26/2011
@Nuarlian: I also had a hell of a time trying to juggle my gear between threat and survivability. I must have spent 2k gold on reforging my gear because I was so confused at what Blizzard wanted/expected me to do. I would be too squishy at 26 exp and 8% hit, so I would have to screw with it all the time to see what worked out best for the healers, yet also let me maintain threat reasonably. It was like, tonight I guess I'll try tanking at no expertise and 8% hit and see how that goes. Nope, still not good. Now let's try 26 exp and no hit. Nope not right either. Combinations now....and on and on and on. Finally, I just set it to al survival stats. The dps have to use common sense at the start of the fight.
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Proliferate
Ysondre
Proliferate
3/18/2012
@Maeghen: A simple rule i use is about 10-13 xper and 1 item reforged into hit or left alone (for a positive hit rating) and it seems to work fine. push everything else into mastery and reforge dodge/parry correctly (parry having a bit more value for warriors but not enough to exceed 1.5% of dodge) and you should be fine
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Kuthis
Kirin Tor
Kuthis
4/23/2011
I have a question about the Dev Watercooler / State of the Game blogs, and I figured it would be better to post it here in the original watercooler (since it has the ground rules more clearly laid out)

I'm a bit of a Wrathbaby, and I find that I still really miss Ghostcrawlers frequent posts on the forums. They were helpful because they put meaning behind more of the changes made, helping me to understand what the Devs intended (at that moment) for each change to do.

I understand that the posts also had the double edge of...a lot of bad stuff and arguments erupting on the forums.

My question is this: Could there be a way to find a bit more of a balance between the older style of posting on the forums and this newer direction of using blogs?
While the blogs that have come out are informative and interesting, they come with a bit of infrequency that leaves me pining for the "good" 'ol days.
Maye I'm missing it if it already exists, but perhaps a twitter or a feed of some sort could be used? A no-promises type of "We're toying around with blah, here's what we're thinking" or "Man having a feral druid riding a camel on the Earthrager Ptah encounter is funny"

Just throwin it out there =)
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Davidjj
Stormrage
Davidjj
4/22/2011
I think that the whiners of the world should be quiet and just do some dailies and farm while you wait. The only people who complain stay in SW and say "Im desprite, someone tank for me!".
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Deara
Nordrassil
Deara
4/21/2011
The problem I have with people assuming hit/expertise are "dead" stats for a tank are those times, that seem to happen with a fair amount of frequency for me, where on a pull my avenger's shield will miss and then Hammer of the Righteous will miss and the dps, being the trigger-happy idiots they are, will have already started throwing things at the mobs. Then I end up with a dead hunter who starts screaming his head off about how I can't hold threat; I can't hold threat if I can't hit and my taunts all have cool downs. The problem with dps keeping it in their pants until I've got my threat established is that there are far too many impatient people playing this game and you can't fix stupid. I know I'm not the only person with this problem.

A couple ideas I have for solving it: how about we get some sort of talent where we can spec into hit as a % of our Strength on the respective tanking trees, like how some spell casters can get spell hit from spirit (shadow priest and elemental shaman come to mind). Alternatively you could have a bonus to an avoidance/mitigation stat from your hit/expertise depending on your class. Like a paladin could have a slight parry boost from hit and an increased chance to block from expertise. Nothing game-breaking, of course, but something to make those stats be more of a luxury and less of a mandate.
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Kuthis
Kirin Tor
Kuthis
4/23/2011
@Deara:
I've had the same issue from time to time. The simplest response is to throttle off some of your reforging back into hit and expertise.
It seems to me that there are large quantities of hit on the lower end blues that one *could* expect a tank to be using in heroics.

I tend to go around the 6% hit mark instead of gonig much higher. As my gear improves, I intend to bring my hit up to cap so as to avoid messes in heroics, which are much more srs bznz than the regs I'm toying with currently.

I think the reason they don't make such a talent is because first off, Strength is already a mitigation stat for plate wearers. (According to Elitist Jerks, anyhow, which based it off of an ancient Goatcaller post, 25% of strength become parry rating)

Another thing is they actually seem to want us to utilize hit and expertise ratings so we have a bit more of a stat juggling minigame than we do currently. (Where currently it is reforge (dps stat)>expertise>hit>parry/dodge into mastery.