Dev Watercooler-- Stats on Gear

Dev Watercooler-- Stats on Gear

"Dev Watercooler" is a blog series that provides an inside look into the thoughts and discussions happening within the World of Warcraft development team. In our first entry, Lead Systems Designer Greg "Ghostctrawler" Street laid down a few ground rules:

1.       No promises are being made in these Dev Watercooler blogs.

2.       Don't read too much between the lines.

3.       No complaints about the topic not being what you want to see covered.

The developers talk a lot about stat allocation on gear. We made some major changes to the stats that show up on armor and weapons for Cataclysm, and we periodically review how things have shaken out.

One suggestion that pops up fairly often, both internally and externally, is to make gear more tailored for each and every talent spec. (It honestly feels like we have 30 classes in the game at times.) We could have bosses drop Intellect mail with Hit on it for Elemental shaman. We could go back to legitimate bear gear. There might only be one spec (or less if you’re talking Feral’s two-specs-in-one-tree deal) interested in those drops.

The problem with that approach is that boss loot tables get really long. Say you're a Resto shaman who won some mail gloves last Tuesday. Had this alternative model been in place, those gloves might not have dropped for you. In this alternate universe, the Elemental gloves did instead. There is a reason that Argaloth and his ilk feel like slot machines -- because they can drop so many items, the chance of them dropping the piece you want is pretty low. That works for the Tol Barad boss because he’s pretty easy to reach and we want to encourage players to keep coming back to him week after week so that more players benefit from his gear. It might be pretty frustrating if every boss felt like Argaloth though.

There's another extreme we talk about sometimes, which is making gear more universal. We could merge the Spell Hit and Spirit stats pretty easily for all casters the way we did for Elemental, Balance, and Shadow. There would just be Intellect cloth that everyone from Destro to Disc would want. Great, you might think, less stuff will get sharded. But then think about how it would feel if you were one of those clothies. In a 10-player raid, there might be three people rolling on your loot. In a 25-player raid, it could be double that.

We could go even crazier. I mentioned in an earlier blog how Hit and Expertise aren’t very exciting to tanks, and that even if we made threat really hard to maintain, that tanks would probably still just stack survival stats and get frustrated when they lost aggro. Since we don’t vary the Stamina and Armor on tank gear (except in jewelry, socket bonuses, enchants, and gems perhaps), that means the tanking stats are really Dodge, Parry (except for druids), and Mastery. It wouldn’t be that hard to have say Haste convert to dodge chance and Crit convert to parry chance. Now the plate stats are Hit, Expertise, Crit, Haste, and Mastery (aside from the Strength and Stamina, which are always there in predictable proportions). Boom.

Now plate tanks share the same gear with plate DPS. When plate drops, all the death knights, warriors, and two of the three paladin specs might want it. Is that a better world? Less stuff would get wasted but there would also be more competition. You might feel less unique as an individual, and things might feel all too similar when you go from playing your Prot paladin to your Fury warrior, but on the upside, swapping to an alternate spec might be easier because you won’t need an entire second set of gear.

I mentioned two out of three paladin specs above. That third spec has been a thorn in our side for a long time. Paladins in general have a knack for that. I kid. (Mostly.) I'm talking about Intellect plate. We don't like Intellect plate, but we haven’t come up with a good alternative for it. The pitches we hear most often have downsides we don't like. Yes, a Holy paladin could wear mail… at which point their silhouette would look a lot like a shaman instead of a paladin. Yes, Holy paladins could derive their spell power from Strength… at which point they also hit with their weapons nearly as hard as Ret paladins. Yes, we could convert all that Strength to spell power, and convert the Hit to Spirit and the Expertise to Mastery or whatever. The Spirit to Hit conversion does the job, but it's not super elegant or intuitive. I’m not sure we want to pile more onto that design.

Unless we come up with a really compelling reason to change gear stats, we’ll probably stick with the Cataclysm model for the foreseeable future. But we’re interested in seeing your feedback. Would more universal gear be more fun or less fun? Do you like competing over items many folks want, like Deathbringer's Will or even Cho'gall's shoulder tokens? Does it suck when plate tanking gear drops long after the tanks have geared up, or is it nice to be able to toss it to the Ret or Fury player for their offspec? Do the druids wish they had real tanking gear? Are the Prot warriors jealous of the Feral gear model? Is this one of those places in the game that could benefit from a more simple design, even if it was a less fun design? There are no wrong answers here, only whiny ones. I kid. (Mostly.)

 

*Greg "Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He tanks with a two-hander. On a shaman. Boom.

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Daddylen
Azjol-Nerub
Daddylen
4/17/2012
A new idea for you. Why not have the boss drop something for a set of classes (druid, rogue for example), and then have the gear adapt itself upon being looted to the class that loots it.

For Example, we would drop leather item, and a balance druid and combat rogue roll on it. The balance druid wins. The gear then adapts to the spec by morphing to spell power, int, spell hit, whatever.
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Krakeroh
Aman'Thul
Krakeroh
4/5/2012
Personally i would love more items like there
Were in vanilla wow. The ones with "chance on hit:hurls a fiery ball for 50 damage" i loved those and always want to use them. I have the crest of retribution shield on my pally that hurts people when i block... Then add a shield spike. Please bring these back blizzard.
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Blorgishbas
Stonemaul
Blorgishbas
3/11/2012
Please do not go stat crazy like in Cata, and if anyone can give me a link to an MoP PvP discussion thread or post that would be sick.
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Ruerim
Kul Tiras
Ruerim
3/2/2012
I wholeheartedly agree on the whole hating Intellect on plate arguement. Whenever I'm playing a DK or a warrior and I see int plate as a reward for a quest it upsets me. One talent spec for one class creates a whole set of gear. Oddly despite my distaste of caster plate I feel the answer doesn't lie in changing the paladin but rather in making that caster plate usable by one of the DK talent trees. Perhaps an overhaul of unholy? I'm unsure exactly how that would work out, but I do believe that is the best solution to making caster plate "fit" in the current gear design.
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Jjlock
Earthen Ring
Jjlock
3/2/2012
On my warrior I'm jealous of classes that have abilities to turn stats from one role into stats for another. For example, shadow priests can use spirit as hit.

Why can't dodge be converted into hit and parry be converted into expertise via a talent point in the arms and/or fury trees? Just a thought.
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Maybe more "token" style drops? Perhaps a neck token, a ring token, etc. Or more JC recipe drops for those slots. More crafted items can add more variety, with bosses dropping crafted mats useful to all in appropriate quantity.
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Ciridan
Skywall
Ciridan
2/28/2012
Sorry folks but I'm not siging any of those petitions. Personally Mr. Street i say dont change a thing. Having come from playing games like RuneScape where you have 28 bag space, Period!, i see no problem with people having to set aside 8 or 9 spaces in the backpack to store their spec gear.

That said some will complain that they dont have enough loot room so as a compramize perhaps a bag that works like the Profession bags to hold spec gear and spec gear alone? But the drop tables are fine if you ask me and the spec issue is as good as it can get.
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Bloodfreeze
Cho'gall
Bloodfreeze
2/14/2012
Top two arguments that I hear and agree with are:
1. "Healer plate was nonexistent until jp and vp gear. I think Pallys and druids (and probably monks, come mop) are expected to choose a spec that goes well with their GEAR, not what they want to do. "
2. "Druids and Shamans get their own armor sets (resto/balance druids don't share gear with any other class and Ele/Resto Sham). Every other class besides those 2 and holy paladins lose gear exclusivity and roll against not only other specs, but other classes. "
Honestly Druids and Shams have it so easy right now as far as gear goes. It is a promised improvement every time you raid almost. Blizz is faulty in being biased towards Shams and Druids right now, almost as biased as they were with Huntards back in the day. Too many changes not enough answers sounds like blizz doesnt even know what it is doing. No clear and concise direction, rhyme or reason imo.
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Deatheart
Drak'Tharon
Deatheart
2/12/2012
dk are base on about every class. death grip comes from life grip death srike is more of a upgrade of a warrior move to heal after killing a foe.
+ dk use runic power not mana and they are after all a melee class.
i dont really think dk make great healers due to the fact they are more like a anit class.
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Spawñ
Aerie Peak
Spawñ
2/12/2012
I think the Cata approach is good except for the holy Paladin issue you mentioned which has always existed. The problem is there is an entire gear set built for one spec of one class.
The best solution you mentioned have them use armor that another class uses, citing mail. A solution I prefer is to keep the existing gear and create a new spec for an existing plate class to use it. Why can't a death knight heal!? I view the DK as a kind of corrupted paladin, and would love to see perhaps the Unholy tree be a corrupted version of the Paladin Holy tree?
After you do that, tell me why Druids and Shamans get their own armor sets (resto/balance druids don't share gear with any other class and Ele/Resto Sham). Every other class besides those 2 and holy paladins lose gear exclusivity and roll against not only other specs, but other classes.
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Ciridan
Skywall
Ciridan
2/28/2012
@Spawñ: maybe the solution for the Holy issue is held in the new MoP's Talent system? The thought that they could convert the str and stamina stats seems viable to me. An ability that outright converts thestat bonuses on armor might be a middle ground but thats to be tooled.
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Shadowteque
Gilneas
Shadowteque
3/23/2012
@Spawñ: just a thought, could be a bad one but ill try it anyway: instead of "given stats" make gear with a given number of points to spend on whatever stats you choose. e.g instead of 225stam and 300 agi. make it 525 points to spread as you wish. if you want int take int, if you want dodge take dodge. this will balance the gear across classes and also possibly even out the market in the AH on gems/chants etc. does this make sense to anyone else?
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Deatheart
Drak'Tharon
Deatheart
2/11/2012
from what i know when i pvp with a pally i see some of them use something that ends up removing my cains of ice i can use 6 chains of ice in a row everyone gone gets to be a pain think there needs to be a reload time on that & why dont anyone think about what a gear change will do to pvp
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Ciridan
Skywall
Ciridan
2/28/2012
@Deatheart: you mean our Divine Sheild? It has a 5 minute cool down and makes our emergancy heal useless for one minute. Don't talk to us about a Pally being over powered just because once every five minutes we can break free of a sappign rogue or an ice nova happy Mage.

What you might be facing is our Hand of Freedom which lets us not be stuck in one place, though i find that the cool down on that isnt fast enoug hto avoid a DK's death grip and CC abilities long enough for me to get my barrings at all.

Then again i suck at PvP...
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Deathviper
Shadowsong
Deathviper
2/11/2012
ya what she said
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Celerita
Magtheridon
Celerita
2/10/2012
I don't see why class has to determine armor spec. Is there a reason why a healing monk wouldn't use cloth (makes me think of the Cloistered Cleric from D&D 3rd ed)? Why a Fury warrior wouldn't use Mail? This would lend a bit more flexibility; you could design the different spec/armor variations to even out the stats, and I think it would feel cool.

One problem with this, of course, would be off-speccing. But as is stands, Paladins need 3 ENTIRELY (or almost) distinct sets, and so do many other classes. I think the benefits would far outstrip the losses.
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Alzaron
Ravenholdt
Alzaron
2/28/2012
@Celerita: This would be a horrible idea based solely on the fact that its been done already plate mail and leather rolling on different armor than what they are supposed to use. The problem is cloth wearers like my warlock cannot roll on leather, mail, or plate but a holy paladin, ele shaman, resto shaman, resto druid, and balance druid could all roll on a cloth piece of gear if it is better than what they have equipped so then every cloth wearer would not only be rolling against the 8 other specs for cloth wearers but all casters/healers deff. not a good idea
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Sprommet
Zangarmarsh
Sprommet
2/10/2012
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the way gear/loot is now. What I'm finding rather annoying is trying to switch between specs to be more versatile for my raid teams benifit. Example being trying to switch between Fire and Arcane depending on the mechanics of a certin fight. I typically run Fire for almost all the fights in Dragon Soul but for the Spine fight where so much brust damage is needed, I'll switch to Arcane. And what annoys me is that the stat priority between the different specs (at least for a mage) is so great I know I can't be as good as I would like to be. So in my opinion thats something that should looked into, a way of balancing that out. I'm sure there are other mages or classes who have run into similar situations and feel how I do.
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Unholydespot
Moon Guard
Unholydespot
2/10/2012
I honestly think the pally healer thing is a good argument that could use some adjustments. I have a good friend and guildie who I convinced to offspec holy because I told him he'd get more use out of it than a dps spec. I used to nag him about it, but he said the only reason he didn't ever use it was because healer plate was nonexistent until jp and vp gear. I think Pallys and druids (and probably monks, come mop) are expected to choose a spec that goes well with their GEAR, not what they want to do. Its easy to go boomkin- resto cuz there's virtually no change in gear, but I hate boomkin on my druid, and I don't have the time, money, or bag space to get an entirely new set of gear for feral. I don't have a pally, but I can see it being the same way.If you want to tank AND heal on the same character, too bad, unless you have a ton of money and bag space for it. On my priest, however, I can freely switch from shadow to disc because there's no real difference in gear. But I digress, and the point is, it'd probably be more balanced if you did try and lower variations for stats. Not to the extremes you put, but possibly make the switch from tank to healer for druid and pally a little less of a hassle. not really trying to QQ, just my 2 cents :)
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Dorack
Gilneas
Dorack
2/11/2012
@Unholydespot: There's as much healing plate as there is gear for any other class/spec combo. It's just that by the time you've farmed (say) the HoT instances until you've managed to gather a full set, you've probably earned enough JP to hit the cap at least twice over and a few thousand VP as well, so you might as well spend it on the 378 and 397 gear from the vendors. There's also the stuff from the LFR and 10-man versions of DS, as well as Firelands and the other raids - even leaving aside the tier sets.

For the record, I've played as a healadin since about 18 months before BC came out, and at no time did I feel that I was expected to change to prot or ret. Of course, once I had the option to dual-spec, I chose ret, simply because levelling as holy from 1-80 was painful enough without trying for 81-85 and beyond as well.
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Deatheart
Drak'Tharon
Deatheart
2/10/2012
the harder a class is the more fun it can be to master. prist low armor but they make up for that with heals and disk to block some incoming hits shadow prist some melee cant hit. i like how every class has its own weekness to a class. for one is rouge and hunters or hunters and dk not many dk can kill a great hunter due to the fact they hold them back using a spider pet or they use a monkey the most over powered pet if use right
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Deatheart
Drak'Tharon
Deatheart
2/10/2012
i see that you are talking mostly about pve gear. what i dont see is talk about pvp gear and so on. pvp is all ways fun when dealing with a good foe.
there is all ways a path of loses and wins takes a good team to keep up the wins but i dont really mind a lost now & again. thats what i think makes pvp more fun due to you dont no who may turn out the winner.
change up the gear by even a bit may give a class a pvp up making it harder by a ton where one class rules the arena feld
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Deatheart
Drak'Tharon
Deatheart
2/10/2012
i think what wow is planning on doing may change if i want to play wow or not if it gets to the point where any class can kill any class in 5 hits or so i think i just stop playing & i sure more do the same i love PVP so if it gets to a point like that may just call it quits.
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Deatheart
Drak'Tharon
Deatheart
2/10/2012
i read over a lot of this & in my realm a lot think dk need nefts & so on i think they dont get what a hero class. so i see why they got some good power and skills to stay alive in blood spec. in my realm i seen a few insane things one is a rouge named Deathzrow i got no idea how he can heal to full heath in 20 sec when i got him down to 5% heath & my good friend night found a dk that some how can regain all his heath in 10 sec i think i starting to see a link or something. i hear there is some types of things that can be used to cheat in wow i never tryed any & i not planning on doing so not worth spending a lot on a online game & doing something that can get you ban
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Molik
Thunderhorn
Molik
2/10/2012
i think what theyre doing now works fine...the only complaint i have is the lack of gear for hunters....they are the only ones to use agility and stamina mail so there isnt much of it around :(
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Snorgdarf
Tichondrius
Snorgdarf
2/10/2012
@Molik: Enhancement Shamans
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Molik
Thunderhorn
Molik
2/10/2012
@Snorgdarf: i always forget about them lol but either way two classes that use it so they dont have much out there
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Deatheart
Drak'Tharon
Deatheart
2/10/2012
@Molik: i think what they are doing right now is just fine as well. i am a pvp player & what i dont think wow is thinking about is what this may do to the pvp set up. just a heads up if anyone runs into me in my realm i dont srike back or less its deathzrow the pain in the neck rouge but besides him i dont srike anyone or less they hit me first
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Doomsbank
Draenor
Doomsbank
2/10/2012
they say that posting our opinions on the forums is good and it makes a difference but really i dont think it does. i have been reading threw this forum and i see ALOT of people who want it to go back to the old spell damage and healing power set up, i also agree. yet this wont happen even if more players want it than not, very frustrating.
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Kyrori
Altar of Storms
Kyrori
2/10/2012
@Doomsbank: Not to mention these forums and threads on overpowered mages, then they get a 6% debuff to two spells recovered by their glyphs, instead increasing crit... and Pyroblast loses very little fire power at 6%, and its those 18k scorches that need a nerd while they run away at ridiculously increased run speed spamming it, Impact!, and insta proc Pyro's and counter spelling any caster trying to get them for a long silence duration. Don't see Blizzard doing anything about that and Im pretty sure I see more QQ about mages in Trade Chat in game, and Forums on these sites than any other class - them and blood death knights, but they took care of them - to my understanding this Lead Dev plays mage, not DK.
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Hàdês
Cho'gall
Hàdês
2/10/2012
Personally, I think that the system in place is working well. Yes, there are kinks here and there and sometimes people get "shafted" by RNG and the like. Holy pallies, as mentioned, have a giant gap in plate with intel while leveling up. However, this is offset by not gaining the bonus for having all plate until level ranges when it IS available. I wore cloth, mail and leather until I found plate items as upgrades. I didn't heal any differently and other than look of green bracers and yellow boots, I didn't know the difference.

The only time I have ever had a "extremely hard time gearing up" was when I didn't put in the effort to farm the items I wanted. I remember farming DST for months. I never got it. That isn't Blizzard's fault or a flaw in their system. Its the way RNG works. I never died from it, nor did my class plummet to the depths of Hell.

I think that the only feasible change would be to do what Mhortisia suggested. Make tokens non-class specific. I have seen, occasionally, where a token drops and no class on the token has any use for it. Usually someone needs for OS etc... In that case, it's loot going to waste. If meeting the cries of "cheated" loot mongers is the goal then detect what classes are in the raid and drop only those tokens.

Overall, I would HATE to see gear be more universal. The current system is not broken, so why fix it? I have had issues with people ninja'ing gear in the past when its use was debatable. TF for hunters... They CAN use it but should they versus a melee only class? If you universalize gear, yes there will be less work to get geared up, BUT it will come at the cost of more competition for every piece and there will be more crying about "who got what item and why they don't deserve it as much as I do".

I think one thing that Blizzard devs do NOT want to acknowledge is that many of its players, the-stable-long-term-going-on-7-years-now, players are not the ones demanding an overhaul of the system to accommodate insta-win gear drops and "OMFG I IZ 1334" mentalities. We loved Vanilla, we loved BC, we HATED WoTLK (for the most part) and Cataclysm has plopped us into indifference. The original fan base is leaving because this game is catering to whiny, cry babies that can't go 2 seconds without playing the victim card about anything and everything. Make us work for our gear. Make us earn the coveted item. Our successes will be meaningful that way. Don't chop this game up and feed it to the spoiled people that demand their every whim be fulfilled instantly.

To recap: Nothing is wrong with the current system. Don't change it. People do not ACTUALLY want a game that caters to their laziness or "insta-win" demands. They live it up for about 3 months then go to find something that is CONSISTENTLY challenging. If you want gear, go do what people have done for years before you. Raid, hope/pray, retry. Don't make Big Daddy Blizz give you handouts.
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Balgarus
Stormreaver
Balgarus
2/9/2012
Maybe a heal pet but not hella strong but heals just fair heals
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Bowsickness
Barthilas
Bowsickness
2/9/2012
Ya like you need to make it so hunterz can use 2 pets at onces
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Eliteforce
Hellscream
Eliteforce
2/9/2012
can you do something about all the parry on the armor?????
can reforge but parry is still way to high and dodge is to low.
Tokens why does DK have to share with 3 other classes and everyone else has just 3 classes per token and you picked dk, rogue, mage and drd WoW if you got 4 classes per 1 token at least double the token drop's for them. Plz double the drop for all makes of red gems ( jc might get mad but idc) 400g+ per red gem 6k + for the new red gems. (ouch)

AND once more DROP the item lvl on pvp gear so tired of seeing fail tanks, dps and healers in heroics and raids in 3 pvp gear and the rest like lvl 316 greens. i say bring back the HEROIC keys so people have to farm reg's to get rep to be able to buy a key and unlock heroics.
Tired of seeing ppl type ooo i just hit 85 1 hour ago i need the pvp gear so i can get into heroics with there big bad 4k dps. yes we can kick them from the grp and pray we get someone that is pve geared but most the times we dont. granted there is the verry few VERRY few that have the skill to make the dps good in pvp gear but the rest just suck (sorry for the spelling and grammer)
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Kromironskul
Bonechewer
Kromironskul
2/9/2012
I've been playing since the begin and i agree with Clobberrella You guys should just give tanks more stamina and bring back healing power keep spirit, and force the spell caster dps to get spell hit, to divide the gear up so you dont have dps rolling on healing gear. Also I remember reading somewhere before about you guys making resilience a base stat and it just grows when you lvl, Good idea!.
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Cloberrella
Argent Dawn
Cloberrella
1/30/2012
Dont get my Wrong... but i would love to go back to burning crusade kind of gear... Tank gear gave more Hp then any thing else, Healing power.... god i almost miss saying on my mage i have 700 Spellpower... then a priest walks over and is all like, i have almost 2k healing power noob! but thats just me i guess... im just an old fan of the burning crusade stats... and it really bumbed to hear that you took some kind of stats out of the game... it felt like a loss of complexity and made it almost boring...But hey, Im just 1 player right....
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Hàdês
Cho'gall
Hàdês
2/10/2012
@Cloberrella: You actually aren't just one player. I agree 100% and so do many others. The trouble is the players speaking the loudest and most noticeably are the ones that want everything easy mode and don't voice their opinions 80 times on each thread until they get enough attention. I agree that removing block, combining SP/HP, etc, removed some degree of complexity from the game. It's actually sad to me to see that WoW is downgrading their concepts and simplifying virtually everything.
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Sangdelamort
Nazjatar
Sangdelamort
1/26/2012
I think what you have done with the gear is great.. i love that im not spending all day trying to reallocate for defense anymore... and Mhortisia couldn't have said it better! If a token drops why does it have to be slot specific just let a toek be a token and let the player who wins it do what they need to it (again apologising for spelling and or grammer...tired working on sleeping!)
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Mhortisia
Durotan
Mhortisia
1/25/2012
the problem with tokens and why they don't work is they are class specific nothing worse then running a hard raid, and finally killing a token dropping boss only to see that it is for x,y,z classes adn your raid only comprises of a,b,and c classes! a wasted token.

it would be better if tokens were class wide, IE head piece token can be turned in and buy gear for every class, sure competition would be more heated, atleast you wouldn't have wasted tokens.
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Kneecaper
Skullcrusher
Kneecaper
1/24/2012
tanks should do more damage but in pvp they armor should be devalued so they don't hit like a truck and have the stam to go around