Dev Watercooler -- Number of Abilities

Dev Watercooler -- Number of Abilities

‘Dev Watercooler’ is a blog series that provides an inside look into the thoughts and discussions happening within the World of Warcraft development team. In our first entry, Lead Systems Designer Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street laid down a few ground rules:
 

  1. No promises.
  2. Don’t read too much between the lines.
  3. No whining about the choice of topics we cover.

 

How Big Is Your Spellbook?

     How many abilities should a max-level class have? This is something I ponder at least once a day and is a regular topic in nearly all of our class design meetings. Even if you pick a magic number, how many of those should be core rotational abilities versus abilities that are used rarely?

Each class has a lot of spells and abilities -- the hunter has over 60, including the various forms of tracking. Despite our pruning abilities for many classes, there are still probably too many overall. In vanilla, most classes had one ability they used much of the time for damage or healing. Other abilities were situational or, to be honest, not used at all. In more recent expansions, we’ve tried to develop actual rotations for all 30 talent trees so that you’re hitting more than one button most of the time.

When we talk about class “rotations” we’re just using that term as shorthand for the abilities you tend to use often, as opposed to situational abilities. In this context “rotations” aren’t limited just to classes who cycle through buttons A, B, and C in that order. It just means “stuff you use a lot.”

Kidney Shot is a situational ability. You wouldn’t want to use it every time it was off cooldown. Envenom is a rotational ability. You might not want to use it the moment it’s off cooldown, depending on what else is going on, but you’ll still get around to it pretty quickly. Cold Blood straddles the fence. It’s rotational in that your DPS will drop if you ignore it, but you can’t spam it because it has a cooldown. All three buttons require space on your action bar. You might scoot Kidney Shot off to the side if you’re a raiding rogue, but it probably commands a prominent hotkey if you PvP a lot.

What's the Magic Number?

     There isn’t a magic number for how many rotational abilities a class needs, but we find that about four is the sweet spot. (Warning: four is not a magic number. Please don’t “helpfully” point out classes with more than four abilities as candidates for immediate design overhauls.) Elemental shaman, for example, get most of their damage from Lightning Bolt, Lava Burst, Flame Shock, and Earth Shock.

Many more abilities than four and it’s hard for us to carve off niches for them. Fewer than that, and the characters can become boring to play. We’ve tried to make it clearer about which are your rotational abilities (e.g. Overpower is for Arms warriors, not generally for Fury or Protection warriors), and we’ll try to get even better about this in the future.

We generally think of rotations as mechanics for DPS classes, but they apply to tanks as well and to a lesser extent, healers. Protection warriors use Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, and Heroic Strike as their single-target threat abilities. They also use Demoralizing Shout, Thunder Clap, and Shield Block, pretty much on cooldown. Given the number of situational abilities warriors also have, and that they prioritize different abilities when attacking multiple targets, you can argue that Prot warriors have too many abilities. To my mind, Demoralizing Shout is the least interesting one and the first candidate to cut. (We would have to cut the equivalent debuffs from all sources in order to prevent this from just being a warrior nerf of course.) We could also have Devastate completely replace Sunder Armor (i.e. Sunder Armor vanishes from your Spell Book) so there is no confusion about whether Sunder should ever be used again. That would help to get a few buttons off the bar.

Healers have less of a rotation, since much of what they are doing is always highly situational. However, Holy paladins do have builders and finishers, and other healers want to get their HoTs up before switching to cast-time heals, etc. All healers still have a group of core spells though. For a Holy priest healing a single target, these are Heal, Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Renew, and Holy Word: Serenity. If we gave healers a new healing spell, it would need to distinguish itself from those spells in some meaningful way, else it or one of the existing spells risks getting crowded out. Flash Heal is often the heal that risks getting crowded out most often, since so many of the healer talents give them more situational-ish emergency buttons, such as Penance and Power Word: Shield for priests.

It's Complicated

     I’ve stuck with long-ish single target rotations -- the kind you’d use against a dungeon or raid boss -- for the most part, but of course it isn’t always that simple. As you’re leveling, you’re killing things very quickly, so applying long DoTs isn’t always worth the effort. A Feral druid could stealth behind every quest mob and open with Shred (or even Ravage), but for the most part it’s easier just to Mangle targets down and spend combo points on Savage Roar or possibly Ferocious Bite, since the target won’t live long enough for Rip to really do its job. These “quick kill” rotations can also come into group play where you’re dealing with adds that can’t be AE’d down for whatever reason (such as the risk of breaking CC). A Shadow priest might use Mind Spike in these scenarios rather than their full dot and Mind Flay rotation.

On the topic of AE, some specs have some fairly interesting AE rotations, such as Fire mages (Flame Orb, Flamestrike, Combustion, Living Bomb) and Survival hunters (Serpent Spread, Explosive Trap and Multi-Shot). Other specs have really simple rotations, such as channeling a targeted spell over and over. Boring. Going forward, we’re going to make more of an effort to make sure everyone has a reasonable AE rotation that at least involves more than one button. Part of the reason we don’t want groups just AE’ing down everything in dungeons that they don’t yet overgear is because we think the gameplay is less compelling. Adding a little more depth than just channeling Blizzard would encourage us to add more situations where AE is the right thing to do.

The Human Factor

     Rotations are very different in PvP as well, where uninterrupted time to sit there and do max DPS is in very short supply. On the other hand, all of those situational abilities (crowd control, dispels, cooldowns etc.) are at a premium in PvP and very often have an even bigger effect on the outcome of a fight than the core abilities do. It is tempting, and to be fair sometimes appropriate, to solve class balance problems by handing out new abilities to make a particular class or talent spec more attractive to a team or at least more viable overall.

We can do this sometimes by tweaking existing abilities, but there is also a risk of “kitchen sinking” an ability. If a button does too many things, then you’re sometimes asked to say use an offensive ability for defensive utility or apply a debuff you don’t really want to mess with in order to get an ancillary benefit. We can cut down on potential confusion by giving similar or even identical abilities to multiple classes (now you only need to learn the name, icon and spell effect of one ability instead of a half-dozen), but too much of that risks class homogenization as well.

Because there are so many different scenarios (PvP, AE, quick kill, and long kill), classes end up with a lot of different rotational and situational abilities that you all are asked to manage and master. Your action bars fill up. Now add in potions and other consumables, mounts, trinkets, professions, and a potential host of macros, and your action bars get very full. Designers also feel a lot of pressure to fix neglected abilities rather than cutting them, even though pruning is often the wiser (but unpopular!) solution. An additional complication is that players expect (and rightfully so!) to gain a new ability or two whenever we increase the level cap. Very powerful situational abilities can serve this role, such as Ring of Frost, but players often react more positively when they gain a new rotational ability that changes up their second-to-second play style, like say Colossus Smash or Unleash Elements.

Too Many to Handle?

     So when do we cross over from having “enough” cool abilities to “too many” cool abilities? The depth that comes from lots and lots of content can feel cool to a veteran player, but even for them, the intended role and nuance of every ability can become blurred. For the new or returning player, it just becomes incomprehensible.

A warrior who took some time off after Lich King and then came back to Cataclysm recently would have to relearn her rotation. Raging Blow? What’s that about? Yeah, it might be more interesting than just spamming Bloodthirst, Heroic Strike, and Whirlwind (even on single targets) like Fury warriors did in Icecrown Citadel, but it’s also just one more thing to learn. Even if the new rotation itself isn’t all that complicated, the fact that the design changed over time makes it feel more confusing than it really is at any one moment in time.

Also remember, that to be the best that you can be, you need to understand the abilities of every class, not just your own. Yikes. We designers have to be vigilant to keep complexity at a manageable level, not just for veterans who are active on the forums, but for returning players who want to see what changes Cataclysm brought to the game.

 

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He prefers Greek mythology over Roman. Cooler names.

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Blackriver
Deathwing
Blackriver
5/12/2011
@Frostiefire: It doesn't much support your point if you don't even read the point you are arguing against before doing so.
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Luighseach
The Venture Co
Luighseach
4/26/2011
I love these water cooler it really gives us players a lot of insight into the dev team. All this talk of abilities got me to wondering though. You never addressed the idea of abilities that proc. As a Ret i have been forced to live and die with my procs. I was wondering if you could give some insight into the idea of procs.
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Haniyas
Blackrock
Haniyas
4/26/2011
Ghostcrawler im sorry to say but you're starting to really annoy me here. You dance around the fact that youve overbuffed and candied mages. Too many abilities? Try your baby class.
You
Gave
Them
Every
Single
Move
In
This
Game
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I hope they don't start removing abilities. I enjoy tanking on a warrior because it is intense and action filled because of so many situational abilities. I also have a pally tank....It feels completely passive and is not nearly as much fun.
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Imdeadlol
Echo Isles
Imdeadlol
4/26/2011
Honestly this kind of a moot point about abilities, not to say that i did not see it coming. I miss the days of vanilla WoW when you had to actually know your class and the game was HARD!!! it was a feet just to make it to 60, this game has changed so much to become more "user-friendly" 20-60 exp reduced by half, mounts at 20, no longer must you do tedious quest chains to either raid, get abilities, or even class specific mounts. Please all i ask is dont make this game easier!!!!! if you dont liek your dps go practice on a dummy or look information up about your class.
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@Imdeadlol: I bet back in your day, to get level 60, you had to walk... uphill... both ways... in the snow!

Now please, everyone who is currently having fun, please remove yourself from Imdeadlol's lawn.
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Doorknob
Coilfang
Doorknob
4/26/2011
To be completely honest, I don't see the issue. Now if you don't use keybinds and macros, I can see how all these buttons may seem like a lot, but for me on all of my toons, I've found I just needed to set up 1,2, maybe 3 new keybinds and a day or two of practice, its all set. Researching your class, and others makes everything a lot easier. IMO the only time these abilities come into major play are: A. Raids, which were originally intended for the elite, and to a point still are. (Heroics, etc.) and B: PvP, which again are for the best of the best. Each player needs to learn how to use different CD's when its appropriate. They also should have to live and learn when they dont use them correctly.
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Snugglebug
Dragonblight
Snugglebug
4/26/2011
not sure were to make suggestions. I made this suggestion to the GM that helped me with a glitch. (She did an awsome job). She suggested i tell someone and she would put it in from her side...so here goes. Thought it would be cool if during the winter feestival there were a quest to get a santa's slegde. Even if it only flew during that fest period. Or maybe a schmatic for engineers to build them. And u could add a quest to get the raindeer to pull it. Don't know if it is possible, but thought it would be cool for my toon "Sandteaclaws and the wifes "Mamaclaws" to fly whiile we pass out the stuff we gather all year at the "Northrend Pole" guild. Thanks for listening. May the spirit of the season be with u always.
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Koronos
Norgannon
Koronos
4/26/2011
i think that it should have about 4 to 8 abilities that you will use frequently, any more than that makes selecting them troublesome, but it dosnt mater how many abilites you have that you dont need to use in combat much or are rarly used like fortitude
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Owlcapwnd
Runetotem
Owlcapwnd
4/26/2011
I feel that Blizzard and their Dev. team are doing there job better, in the given alloted time, than any of you whiners here.
So if you wanna whine don't do it here plz.
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Falaver
Fizzcrank
Falaver
4/26/2011
I'm glad to see this at least on the blizz radar. I pvp mostly, so there is no set rotation to use. My highest toon is a 72 hunter and I am finding the toolbar a bit busy with a few more abilities yet to come. I find that I just can't get to some abilities fast enough. To be fair, I'm still learning the class (and the game).I don't macro yet but between me and my pet I have 27 key binds and I'm not sure where to put anymore (thats after excluding abilities that have a 3% chance to sometimes, remove a magical effect , if the caster is wearing a blue shirt ,bla bla bla). I can't speak for other classes, as far as hunters are concerned, we have enough abilites. I think if an ability exists, it should have a meaningful amout of effect, be it damage, healing or whatever.
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I personally find that 5 core "rotational" keys fits best (for me keyed to 2, 3, 4, R, and M4). When core abilities drop to less than that, I feel like I'm not fully functional. When core abilities jump beyond that, I start to find it far too easy to fumble keys when moving or to clip GCD more frequently.

On the situational side, I prefer a smaller set of the big cooldowns (5-6 counting trinkets), and about 3-4 added side abilities (little to no cooldown). Beyond that, I find the situational buttons are too easy to forget about (especially when they fit a very narrow niche).

And on a related note, I find situation abilities with cooldowns greater than 3 minutes to be too infrequent in their use and would be high on my pruning list under my own designs (though restructuring the best ones around shorter cooldowns would likely be my first attempt).
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Silentmyst
Sen'jin
Silentmyst
4/26/2011
@Serra: as a rogue... most rogues, hate use trinkets btw theres a button easily trimmed IMO
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Silentmyst
Sen'jin
Silentmyst
4/26/2011
personally i keep all my toons abilities on the bar, i use a skill bar add on and it gives me space to group them. like dots, hots, heals, cds, raid buffs, ect there are some not used like spec specificly used skills like envenom vs eviscerate. alot are situational and get used at least a some point. i could see some trimming though, like demoralizing roar, warlock eye, searing pain, could trim down things like lock pick and require just a right click ect.

but... i notice complexity doesn't always = fun. i dunno its been a min since i've been combat but... recup for energy and rupture? its... like forcing the builds into something their not. ex: mut = timer watchers/refreshes, combat = cd management - throwing timers on top of cd/buff(insight) management with bad combo point gains(like assassination can proc cp) is in my opinion frustrating rather than fun (not saying i can't do it or manage it... just... why?)

and healers went from boring to frustrating in my opinion. its like this, dps: beat on boss, watch mechanics - tanks: beat on boss, watch mechanics - healers: watch all players for heals, watch mechanics, throw in sc%@!%%! for mana, mana gaining cds. again its all do-able and manageble but... does that really help the "fun" content?
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Silentmyst
Sen'jin
Silentmyst
4/26/2011
@Silentmyst: s,.-c,.-r,.-a,.-p.-i,.-n,.-g got bleeped out lol ^
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Geoffry
Ravencrest
Geoffry
4/26/2011
Look at the number of keyboard keys assigned to tasks instead of the number of spells listed in the spellbook. I realize I am a klutz, but I can only hit 15 keys accurately and quickly. If I need more than 15 spells or tasks available instantly. then I wonder if the number of spells needed is not too much.

This is an ergonomic problem rather than game play theory. Have you considered how hard it is to get your wife or grandkids (not hardcore gamers) to remember and use more than 15 instantly needed spells?

You have to consider not just the main rotation but shields, interrupts, and other quickly needed spells. And I am not including any movement keys because I do not use any keys to move.
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Lavendara
Feathermoon
Lavendara
4/26/2011
Here's another vote to keep the list of abilities full-bodied rather than slimming the classes down to the point where every fight is essentially idiot-proof. I have 5 classes at level 85, each one very different and requiring knowledge, experience and actual thought to play even modestly well. It's a never-ending challenge, and that's a good thing. In fact, I'd like to see slightly less constructed balance and symmetry and a bit more flexibility in the "end result talent product" which will allow for those who wish to think outside the box to receive some calculable benefit for their efforts. Let the players make their own decisions and either succeed or fail accordingly. Obviously you put an enormous amount of thought into each step, each change, and I regularly wonder in awe "who thinks of all this?," but giving the players a tangible freedom to hybridize themselves (within acceptable confines, of course) makes the game more challenging....and isn't that what we are all here about? Thanks to Ghostcrawler for his thoughts. Congratulations to all of the Dev Team people who obviously put so much into making WoW the amazing environment that it continues to be.
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Aryasfire
Feathermoon
Aryasfire
4/26/2011
it would be nice to see fear gone from the game. as for healers even with this new call to arms thing i still wont play her or do H runs with her. the old saying is if it not Broke dont fix it well it was good till you guys made way to many down grades to class and spec now it broke
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Acaer
Azuremyst
Acaer
4/26/2011
1st things first....... there is no threat applied to devastate, the world/class changes patch saw to that, Ghostcrawler. Second, on my warlock I have 2 rotations, 1 for bosses and one for mobs. do I complain.... no, because its much easier to figure it out on your own than QQing on forums about how low your dps is, how many times youve been kicked from dungeons because people are anal, and how you dont have a single CC at all.... (Warriors, dks, priests, etc).

Seriously people..... Its. Just. A. Game. This is the Devs informing us about what is on their minds, not what theyre gonna do to the game. Thats patching.
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Thranduills
Azuremyst
Thranduills
4/26/2011
@Acaer: If you think the people posting the comments are taking the game too seriously, then don't every try ally on our server, these posts are like our trade chat 24/7.
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Acaer
Azuremyst
Acaer
4/30/2011
@Thranduills: i have..... found it annoying and... havent i killed you?
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Reversion
Ysera
Reversion
4/26/2011
I've only got two characters at 85. A warlock and a druid. My warlock seems to have an appropriate amount of abilities in his rotation (maybe just 1 or 2 too many) but my druid (balance) has far too few.

1. Starfall (Cooldown)
2. Force of Nature (Cooldown)
3. Moonfire
4. Insect Swarm
5. Starsurge
6. Wrath
7. Starfire

Rinse, repeat. And either wrath or starfire gets completely taken out of your rotation for half of the time. That leaves you with a total of 6 (really 4 not counting long cooldowns) abilities you're spamming at all times.
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Reversion
Ysera
Reversion
4/26/2011
@Reversion: Actually only two abilities you're spamming at all times (Starsurge - Wrath/Starfire) as Insect Swarm and Moonfire only need to be cast when they're about to fall off.
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Valana
Mug'thol
Valana
4/26/2011
The Survival AoE "rotation" is no different from Marxism or Beast Mastery. You use Explosive Trap with Multi-Shot, Multi-Shot, Multi-Shot, Multi-Shot. Serpent Spread is not an extra ability.

Also, Explosive Trap's initial damage does not scale with gear and only deals around 200 damage. Only the ticks scale with RAP.
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Tolateforyou
Ner'zhul
Tolateforyou
4/26/2011
i feel like you guys made healing to plain. now every healer has almost the same class mechanics and instead of balancing them based off of their different advantages you nerfed them all to the same "rotation" so know there isn't really no point trying different healers like the old days.
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Kazram
Khaz Modan
Kazram
4/26/2011
Re: Complex AoE rotations. If you have to need 5 GCDs to get started, then you're pretty useless on fights with adds that have to be AoE'd down in 4, but that one-button spam (while not as "fun) is fast.
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Luminant
Korgath
Luminant
4/26/2011
Ctr+F [retri]
Nothing found.
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Biggboy
Thorium Brotherhood
Biggboy
4/26/2011
Honestly, the more abilities the better. I don't enjoy raiding really because its too repedative. The more times you give a player an option to make the wrong choice you are making more skill be involved. This is a game players have 60 plus day of played time on, they should be able to learn more complex rotations. More buttons to push=more decision making=the players that are smarter and more skilled stand out.
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Kebosangar
Madoran
Kebosangar
4/26/2011
I disagree with any pruning on current ability list.

Massive number of abilities is actually one of the reasons that I loved WOW. It's like a 3D fighting game. You can see the move roster is soooo massive but the most effective combo or spam move are usually a few. But, the fun comes when you find interesting stuff that you can do with your current character's repertoire.

Some of the best players found their flow from experimenting and this what keeps the game fresh. Limiting the number of possible move actually limits experimenting and will make the game less appealing in the short term.

If you fear the number of moves can be overbearing, that's where the community comes in. It's only a few clicks away from finding the simplest and most effective rotation on the web. And users will basically crop the move list by them selves. And WOW continuously updates the effect of the move so it will always stay fresh.

Right now I think the number of abilities are still manageable.
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Anklebitten
Chromaggus
Anklebitten
4/26/2011
while this may be a 'great ' topic for discussion, i have 1 question, how much more can you guys ' dumb down ' the classes and their respective abilities? I for one like to look at my spellbook, and look at the different spell's and abilities, and having to decide for myself, depending on spec and roll, which of those abilities belong on my bar. I don't want someone saying "you have too many abilities " , so we are going to 'remove' some of them from your repetoire. When a player gains new abilities, it should be up to the player to decide what is relevant to their class and spec, as to what they use on their bar. If it is 'too complicated' or my favorite, 'too hard', then they need to reroll to a class they can better understand. I understand that this is but a game, and as such should be enjoyable. I also understand that outside the 'game' some of the classes ( Deathknight's ) do not, nor have they ever existed, even in myth. But from my stand point as a warrior, to remove shield bash, yet leave shield slam alone?, simply retarded, why carry something, and tell me that "you can do this, but not that" If i can slam you with my shield, why the heck can't i bash you with it?
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Lifeeater
Jaedenar
Lifeeater
4/26/2011
my roation is Corr, Bane of Agony, UA, Howel of terror However, though 4 at high lvl do not down a thing in pvp. I will have to wait tell 4.1 to see if and additional damage is applyed here
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Guts
Bonechewer
Guts
4/26/2011
If it has more than a 4min cd remove it from the game, its just wasting space and design time. Guild wars got somethings right by limiting your hotbar. There is a lot of fun theory crafting when you have to pick a set number of skills to use, and as devs you'll see what skills people scrap. FFXI also did something other mmos seem to have forgot; Chain Skills. GW2 seems to have picked up on it. Having skills change when interacting with other classes adds spice while limiting everyones hot bars. Instead of adding 2 new 5min cds skills at level cap that we all mod:shift, start adding class/combo/skill chains. Hopefully you're already doing it in Titan ;)
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Adrim
Argent Dawn
Adrim
4/26/2011
A simple solution is to replace abilities at higher levels, to give them new effects but otherwise keep the rotation the same.

For example, Heart strike could start out single target, gain ability to hit an extra target at few levels later, gain ability to hit a third target a few levels later, and finally become a cleave (hitting all targets) at max level.

You could also add effects or abilities based on spec. Blood boil could be simple AE attack a low levels, but have the ability to spread debuffs for a blood tank, have the ability to amplify howling blast damage for extra AoE damage in frost DPS, and refresh diseases for unholy DPS. Gets rid of the single-spec use Festering Strike as well.

So I don't feel it's that difficult. Just like Thrash replaces Mangle at high level for Bears. All you need to do is automatically swap out the icon and inform players and they can carry on. I think there is a lot of potential to scale abilities as you level instead of relying on talents. Blizzard at low levels could be a straight AoE attack. At higher levels, it could slow targets movement and/or attack (the degree could be affected by talents). At max level, maybe it adds a 1-2s snare.

Talents should never be how classes turn on abilities, imo, like Ret Paladins who have to talent for their CC or Resto Druids who have to talent for their dispel. Talents should only improve or modify the degree of extisting abilities. Save adding "new stuff" for leveling to close off the few gaps where there is no new gift upon leveling (mid 50-60 druid leveling is a sad and lonely experience, spell wise). And save it for next time you have to bump the level cap.
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Gilarin
Stormrage
Gilarin
4/26/2011
Great topic to discuss, and I see a lot of good thought processes going into it. For my 2 cents, I like to have a certain degree of complexity to my rotations as DPS, since there's nothing more boring than feeling 'hedged in' to 2 or 3 repetitive abilities. I especially enjoy the thrill of identifying and weaving in the best proc-based attacks and having to stay on my toes in order to maximize my damage contribution, since I feel that is where the real skill in this game is involved. I'm also a bit of a button-masher though, so I recognize that may affect my bias. In fact, the one thing that ultimately drew me to the DK class over other DPS classes was the fact that the ability rotation was so constant, yet fluid. I enjoy having a unique ability to use at every global cooldown, and the dual resource system really aided in that regard. In a way, I'm actually kind of concerned to see how the removal of Blood Strike/ Death Rune conversion will affect that fast-paced, constant stream of abilities that I'm so fond of. I certainly see the merit in getting rid of a low-damage output, 'required' buffer ability, but at the same time I don't really want to fall into a mundane cycle of spamming Obliterate and Frost Strike, with the occasional HB proc. =/

However, I feel the real focus you might want to turn your attention to is the TIMING of abilities as a whole rotation, rather than the sheer number of them. Sure, having a multitude of different abilities can be a daunting task to use properly, and reading what some warriors have to say, they seem to be suffering from this. I would argue though that a 'normal' rotation of 6 or 7 abilities wouldn't be an inherently bad thing so long as A) each ability truly contributes to your fight in a unique and worthwhile manner, and B) the resource regeneration/ ability cooldowns support this cycle, such that the player doesn't feel that they're losing battle contribution by being "forced" to choose one less desirable ability over another. Rather, the availability of the abilities should be directly proportional to the uptime that they are realistically going to see, give or take a couple of "proc'd" abilities thrown in. Which of course leads to a murky ground of balancing that I'm not really qualified to comment on, but I'd think my timing premise is rock-solid.

To further comment though, I do feel that my list of 'all possible' abilities vastly outnumbers the list of practical ones that are going to get use on my action bar... though I withhold judgment at the moment on whether that's necessarily a bad thing. For example, Necrotic Strike is for all intents and purposes a purely PvP ability, as is Dark Simulacrum to a degree, since it sees so little end-game functionality on bosses and such. Blood boil and rune strike are purely tanking abilities, Festering Strike is never going to see use on a Frost DK b/c it is functionally a really resource-expensive, gimped-duration Plague Strike... and the list goes on and on.

Does it bother me that I have a lot of abilities that I'll never use in a given talent spec? Well, yes and no. So long as the abilities are so spec-specific that they literally have no place on my action bar, then I really don't care whether they're cluttering my spellbook, since I know they'll have use if and when I try a different spec out. If you do go the route of trying to streamline abilities by combining existing abilities to be more useful for multiple specs, I would urge caution though, as this could needlessly cloud the waters of what is currently two clear-cut, separate bodies of water. Hopefully that analogy makes sense. Which direction upholds the ideals you guys originally set out with for the different classes is up to your discretion, just... make sure that you commit to a direction, and that the job is done right. That's a fair request, yes?
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Ishinobi
Hellscream
Ishinobi
4/26/2011
@Gilarin: i don't disagree with you..i just cant believe i read so much text lol
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Keinhosen
Wildhammer
Keinhosen
4/26/2011
Good post GC I would like to throw in my two cents though. Currently I do about 90-95% of my dmg in raids with arcane blast. I would have to say this is a complex rotation can you please derp it down more? Thanks.
Sigh.....

-Hosen-
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Stonedrake
Alexstrasza
Stonedrake
4/26/2011
I love complexity and I think the more the merrier.

How every, being reasonable towards new players, it's extremely overwhelming.

I feel a good solution would be to keep all the current abilities (even add more); but add a default "easy" button to the interface that can be turned off if wanted. This would give new players a preset toolbar (spec specific) with only the spells they need to use and know about.

Ex for a healer: it might mean not having any dmg spells on your bars.
Ex for a mage: it might mean only having fire spells, but no arcane or frost.

Again, this could be turned off, but would give new players a nice template to work with.
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Watchtower
Ysondre
Watchtower
4/26/2011
Well, i will only agree with Ghostcrawler in one thing 100%, Sunder Armor should be eliminated, nobody uses it and creates confusion on the tanks about using this or devastate.

About the other things sound like you want to make this game simpler so new people find it more appealing. Well, this isn´t pac-man; this wow, for example, when you play chess you have many pieces, maybe you don´t use them all in every game; and some players would prefer to use some pieces while others don´t; well, that doesn´t mean you should reduce the number.

Well, happens the same in wow, the game needs a high level of complexity to remain being what it is. When wow was originally realesed it was much more harder, need to go to arathi highlands to queue for bg, complicated attunment quests to enter raids and much more. Now a lot of those things have been simplified, and our friend ghostcrawler says that also the class abilities have to be more simple; excuse me but wow complexity (maybe it´s the most complex game every) is what made it what it is now.

I know that your angle is that if the game is easier you can attract more new noob players; but that will only result in a mediocre game. Keeping the veteran players is more important that attracting casual new players. Firs of all because veterans have been here supporting your project for many years so you owe them some loyalty; and second because casual players may play a couple months here and then will leave to play some other casual game; so you can´t realy on them.

BTW, why you never answer to our posts crawler? looks like you create the thread and then don´t even bother reading what we write.

One last thing, if mages are soo OP why there aren´t more mages in high ratings of the arenas as there are warriors for example?
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Maleficious
Wyrmrest Accord
Maleficious
4/26/2011
@Watchtower: They were all at 2,600+, then Blizzard used Spell Reflect and they one-shotted their arena teams, deleting them from existence.

As for responses, they might be reading, but it's more constructive for people to banter amongst themselves and make suggestions, as it'd be too time consuming for them to answer every single post.
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Wakagana
Draka
Wakagana
4/26/2011
Hey uhh..Since Frost mages have so much cc and burst, can I have my starfall do as much dmg as it did back in Wrath when it got buffed? Thats the only time boomkins were able to kill people by literaly pressing 1 button and running around, you could buff sunfire to do 200% more dmg while moving. even with the talent, that'd be cool -trolls-