Dev Watercooler -- Threat Level Midnight

Dev Watercooler -- Threat Level Midnight

Threat revisited

One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).

Back in December, I wrote a blog post about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat. Enough that we’re planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works.

Why have threat?

Threat’s role, just so we’re all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren’t under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It’s fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It’s fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn’t to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it’s also not fun to be bored.

That’s been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:

Why not have threat?

Throttling

  • As I said in the previous blog post, it’s not fun to feel throttled. It’s not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It’s fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it’s not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.

Tanks are busy

  • I’d also argue that our encounters aren’t really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.

Threat stats aren’t fun

  • We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can’t parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)  

    We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren’t. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn’t very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it’s usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group’s progression.

We don’t need a more complex UI

  •  We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say “super compelling gameplay” you can mentally replace that with “fun.”)

Dungeon Finder

  •  I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn’t necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).

    However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it’s the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That’s not an issue of skill. It’s just numbers. It’s also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it’s just not a lot of fun for anyone.


So now what?

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them.

It’s an important distinction that the concept of “aggro” will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature’s attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we’ll have to make further adjustments.)

We like abilities like Misdirect. It’s fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don’t like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank’s threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.

Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see:

  • Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
  • In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Long-term changes

You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today’s boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.

That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.

Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don’t want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn’t a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.

This is the kind of design for which we’re really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it’s hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot of gut checks and wishy-washy “but how does it FEEL?” language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
 

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.

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Mortality
Rexxar
Mortality
1/21/2013
"Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them."

So....uhh...what happened with this?
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Hordesbeauty
The Forgotten Coast
Hordesbeauty
11/6/2012
Im a healer and one of the best on my realm but when i que i always get the worst tanks that are always in a hurry and never give me a sec for mana. its like 20 mins when they drop grp and we need a new one....wish you guys could fix this issue
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Nezliok
Laughing Skull
Nezliok
8/23/2012
I liked and played a tank in the burning crusade when you really had to fight to stay on top of threat, in addition to managing all the other mechanics of a fight. I remember times in the Underbog when our guild's best destro warlock would constantly be pulling threat on trash and it was pure, utterly laughable chaos. I remember playing a priest back then and actually needing to use Fade, and prioritizing Prayer of Mending since it gave the tank threat from the heal instead of me. Since then, threat has become as near a non-issue as possible. I never used a threat meter in cata, and stopped playing my tank after not too long. I'm sad that blizzard is planning on keeping it this way... but at least priests are still fun (although disc in 25 mans is not).
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Gotschak
Kirin Tor
Gotschak
6/18/2012
I know this is an old post, though i want to say as a tank lover (yes, i have the four types of tank). Agro stats are in most of my tanks gear, though its hard to compete with a druid tank, with more hp and a natural 3% hit, with a warrior tank that you have to build from 0% hit raiting and less hp. The balance of tanks its not the same, I like that, but at least you should also make more gear with threat stats, i have my pally, dk and warrior trying to get to the cap and that means less hp for each, and most of gear has only dodge, parry or mastery. I think, that if you help players to get this tipe of gear; it would let us forgeting about generating enough agro for a raid or hdungeon.
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Paranoyd
Aman'Thul
Paranoyd
5/12/2012
i dont think agro should be problem i think that tanks should basicly have automatic massive agro as tank spec'ish thats also debatible, a tank should or maybe could be building shield points or something rather than mouse over macros when !@#$ goes bad as that they must work in timing to generate yes im saying it a pve based resistance at a certain point that is tapped out and may be applied as aoe damage reduction or firstperson to perhaps make damage to tank = zero for x amount of time not like a disc prist shield but and an inhibitor of out going damage from boss perhaps even mechanic as that the tanks job isnt taunting but suplieng a damage debuff of sorts.. meh its just an idea ( tank=autoagro+dagagetaken/=damagedebuff/bysingletarget=groupresistance/ aoedamage=tankresistance) its just an idea
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Fadee
Lightninghoof
Fadee
5/11/2012
Just loving the name of this thread..
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Jadza
Bloodhoof
Jadza
5/11/2012
My biggest problem with tanking is that it is so difficult to transition to. I go from a DPS which I play 90 percent of the time to a tank which I play 10 percent of the time, and I suddenly have to switch to a whole new set of abilities which I am not use to using. It can be really daunting, especially for someone like myself who does have a lot of time in the week to play.

I think part of the problem is that there are too many abilities to manage. I feel there should be maybe 3-4 abilities that you commonly use in your rotation and maybe 6-7 occasional use abilities. Any more than that and it really gets overwhelming. Everything else should be things like passives, long-term buffs, and utilitarian abilities (like Mind Vision).

And it would be nice if most of the abilites you use in Tanking spec would be the same as the abilities you use in DPS spec (right now they are so very different save for a couple of moves), but maybe with different effects (for example, they do less damage but generate greater threat).
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Evolseed
Dawnbringer
Evolseed
5/11/2012
All I know is that healers, especially Priests, generate the most threat. When a tank has too low of an item level or just plain refuses to aggro the enemy its always us the Priest who gets it next. Please lower our threat generation or provide us with better survival tools than Psychic Scream or Fade.
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Romekk
Nordrassil
Romekk
5/10/2012
@kytho: WHY?? tanks are amazing and im one myself we cant just sit around clicking buttons we have to pay attention and focus on the enemies and do you kno why? to keep you all alive and for ur "survival abilities" they have generally long cooldowns so tanks are an important part of this game and for you to belittle its complications is really depressing to me
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Kytho
Aman'Thul
Kytho
5/10/2012
I say get rid of tanks altogether. Then set it up so that each player becomes responsible for staying alive with a variety of defensive capabilities (like a rebalanced Frost Nova, etc) and the healer fills in where things go wrong.

It's a really dramatic change, but I think in the long run it would be for the better. That would mean that all players would be survival based damage dealers which would also tie the classes in nicely with PvP - they'd generally have similar builds and similar behaviour - thus bridging the gap and therefore the problems associated with PvP and PvE mechanics clashing with eachother.

I can't see WoW ever going this way (for instance ALL the boss encounters would need to be changed), but maybe for Titan.
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Emsy
Galakrond
Emsy
5/8/2012
Im a hunter and instead of all the new abilities i just wnat to have two pets out all the time and a pet panda:)
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Telesil
The Forgotten Coast
Telesil
5/8/2012
I've been raiding as a dps since BC, and only starting tanking during Wrath, but I have to agree with most of these posts. During the Rise of the Zandalari stage of Cata, I enjoyed tweaking my gear and rotations to hold threat on my tank, and balancing my threat/dps on my enhancement shaman. Too many people want the game to be handed to them instead of working on their class. Please don't make this game any easier than it already is. I can't help feeling that the epic-ness is leaving the game one patch at a time.
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Klaurik
Moon Guard
Klaurik
5/2/2012
Please... just, no.

Why?

You explained your reasoning but this just doesn't add up. "why?" - "Bcos"

The game doesnt have to be hardcore or inaccesable... But it wasa a fine system.

Threat wasn't a problem, it just had to be maintained.

Only times i've ever had to fight for threat is when i'm being lazy and not distributing my attacks/threat properly...
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Kethune
Arthas
Kethune
4/14/2012
Here is a detail description of how to keep threat as a DK tank:

Step 1 - Drop a death and decay.

Well your job is done, now you can just mindlessly roll your face across the keyboard. If this is fun and compelling game play to some people, I would be surprised. Back in the day, Mitigating damage was only half the battle, as a tank, keeping your threat up was a constant worry, especially back in Vanilla days. We didn't lose much of that in Burning Crusade either. but LK is where WOW really started to decline.

PVP is the only reason why I came back.
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Pauladin
Elune
Pauladin
4/11/2012
Now that Cataclysm is winding down, can we consider the experiment over, and return threat to pre-Cataclysm levels?
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Thaumato
Arygos
Thaumato
4/8/2012
I have tanked on all current tanking classes (I never got to tank on a shammy. Sad face.) Three of those tanks I have tanked in progression raids, and of the three my absolute favorite is a pally. The versatility they possess is amazing. If someone pulls threat I can taunt, use righteous defense, hand of salvation, hand of protection (I love using that on the uh....more stubborn dps), shield throw, or I could hand of sacrifice them until any of the above are off cooldown. My thoughts on tanking are that it is currently very easy to gain threat and hold it. Every now and then a very well geared player will pull aggro off of me, or a dps will attack something within the first five seconds of me gaining threat and I will lose aggro. That being said, it is not difficult to taunt back or use a cooldown of some sort. The problem does not necessarily lie with a tank, but with the dps. The mindset of any common dpser is "Omg, I need moar numbers. Must press moar buttons amd attack as soon as possible". I propose that changing certain dps mechanics would be the way to go, instead of fiddling with tanks that are having threat issues. Misdirect and tricks for example. Why do only two classes have threat transferring capabilities? I think you made a smart move when you gave rogue tier sets an energy cost reduction every time they used tricks, as well as the tier bonus in WOTLK. Why not give various threat transfer cooldowns to all classes that increases their dps by a nominal amount for the time that it is active? As it stands right now, if a tank loses aggro to a dps the general mentality is that the tank is fail and cannot hold aggro. If you gave more classes threat transfering cooldowns that increased dps (moar numbers and such) then the mentality might shift from "fail tank" to "fail dps". From personal experience, about 1 in 20 hunters uses misdirect when I am tanking, and about 3 out of 4 rogues use tricks (due to the set bonus).

Another option would be to provide more versatility to non pally classes. As it stands, on a pally righteous defense is an 8 second cooldown, but on a warrior and druid their aoe taunts are 3 minute cooldowns if not glyphed...Why? My argument isn't that pallies are overpowered, it is that they have more tanking tools at their disposal than any other class. If I'm tanking on my druid and I lose aggro I can taunt, faerie fire (which doesn't always work on regaining threat), challenging roar (long cooldown), or charge to that target and gain threat on that target (which may or may not be at the expense of threat on other targets). I'm not saying it's difficult, or that I need more stacks of vengeance to compete, but in comparison to the tools I have on my pally my druid is lacking. I could make other comparisons for DK and warrior, but you get my gist. Why not give tanking classes additional tools similar to hand of salvation and lower aoe taunt cooldowns to that of a pally? Intervene might be given a longer duration for the threat reduction, you could give druids a spell to summon a magical flower that pacifies/transfers threat from a dps, or a DK could summon some sort of ghoul that could beat some sense into a dps until they stop doing something stupid. Who knows? In summation, threat is fine as it is, and I believe you need give more tools to non pally tanks so that they may share in the fun....or give tools to dps (and a reason behind using them) so that they may achieve moar numbers while not pulling aggro within the first 3-5 seconds of tanking. In reality, if you add more vengeance then tanks will be bored (because tanking is really not that hard to begin with. ESPECIALLY tanking various raid bosses. Ex. Yoursahj, Morchok, Zonozz, etc.) On the flip side however, if you lower it some of the less capable/experienced tanks will not be able to get it back. I look forward to seeing what you do with tanking, but please, for the love of holy Christ, don't make it easier.
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Shayele
Icecrown
Shayele
4/4/2012
High threat generation and less sticky adds was the most fun i've ever had with this game. It happened for maybe two weeks during this expansion.

Needing to pay attention to what I'm attacking and when, and what the main focus mobs are .. that's fun.

Now it's hurr durr 1,1,2,1,1,3 and occasionally tab.
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Icyuenvmè
Magtheridon
Icyuenvmè
3/28/2012
...There has been a problem with threat?
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Telonnar
Perenolde
Telonnar
3/12/2012
Please do something to make tanking fun again sometimes like it seemed to be in wotlk (ill admit the recent patches have helped but it still isnt that fun). Even when ive raid tanked a raid boss successfully I never had fun doing it this expansion. Its a necessary chore but I get far more fun out of dpsing. I cant really put a finger on it other than being a tank requires good raid awareness and it seems far more mentally tiring than dpsing. I dont care for all the tab targeting required sometimes on trash packs- its a tiring mallet dance with gophers and that part isnt all that fun. AOE tanking is preferable and less whack-a-mole and Id prefer to use that more for trash packs. Spread the responsibility for boss interrupts and boss strategy more around the dps some (Ill admit this has occurred occasionally but more of it is still on the tanks). Complexity doesnt equal fun for me - this is a freaking game I want to play with competent friends, not a full time job. Leave the harder difficulty to Hard mode and for those that want it add a ludicrous difficulty mode on top of it perhaps. The LFR was a good step, Id love it if youd make a slightly tougher 10 man LFR as well so guilds could use it to recruit good players and teach strategy for 10-man normal etc. Maybe a new10 man LFR could have all the mechanics of 10 man normal but with slightly reduced numbers etc. For those that want it, id have no problem if you added a ludicrous difficulty level above hard mode. If you dont make changes in MOP i can deal with it - ill just stick to DPS as ive been doing as I enjoy it far more and only tank occasionally as an offspec tank. For those tanks that do enjoy the current tanking models more power to you. I do know tanking in cata has burned out quite a few tanks in the semi-serious casual guild im in this expansion (for a number of reasons) and Id like to see that reversed somewhat next expansion.
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Admsocket
Dawnbringer
Admsocket
2/16/2012
Dear Repliers,
No Such thing as "aggro" its called threat now. My Blood DK Tank has no issues once DnD is laid down off the bat..I have 110% threat on my threat Omen meter and even if another tank is in the raid, I still share the 100% threat with that other tank. Find out how to get threat at the start and you will have no major issues with a creature attacking a hunter etc... Best Regards.
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Ingvarsson
Lightning's Blade
Ingvarsson
2/13/2012
Hi, I am no longer Igvarson, but Steelshammer. (Will will try to get my name and pic changed soon) anyway about the treat changes: The dungeons will become too easy and royally boring. Can't you guys at Bliz come out with a "hard" version of this game (or even let the player toggle on and off things like threat and so on) for us adult gamers and let the kids have their "ez" game. Not related but somewhat puzzling: I noticed that Pallies got nerfed yet again and there are no abilities whatsoever between lvl 10 and 20...what is the deal with that? The abilities at lvl 10 suck and it makes playing a Pally too dificult, now that the gear is not protecting the way it should! Make everything eqaul and everyone will quit the game. Just throw on more abilities rather than taking them, that will answer 99% of the complaints I see about this game. Just my 2 cents
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Fizzlecog
Uldaman
Fizzlecog
2/13/2012
The thing about hit and threat... my druid bear is hit capped for 2 reasons, 1 really only worry about dodge and to a degree mastery, so i like the idea of a dps-tank.... my bear tanks in alt runs for my guild. In fights like yor'sahj, where the amount that tank dps matters even more than normal (and it always matters, dont argue) a bear that pulls two tanks worth of damage stays on the boss during blobs and yor'sahj dies. I also enchant armsman cuz trololol taunt off me, nawww...
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Thredd
Draenor
Thredd
2/10/2012
Bring tanking back to when it used to take a little bit of skill. Standing around on fights waiting to taunt is boring and occasionally move from fire. Bring back to like it was at 70 people watching threat and a tank actually having to look at his screen while he played....
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Jaim
Vek'nilash
Jaim
12/17/2011
Sigh. I hate disagreeing with you all the time. But really? Having to make adjustments to win a fight is not fun? Having to pull your head out of your a$$ and pay attention is not fun?
I remember playing a hunter (back when they had mana....i think i am a mana snob....i don't play hunters much anymore and my tanks are always pally) in a dungeon and being in danger repeatedly of pulling aggro onto myself. I had to watch my threat lvl. Sometimes I had to skip an arcane shot. It was great! I could win. I just could not win mindlessly.

Why have threat? The answer is simple.

Because it strains the limits of credulity for anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together to think that every monster would always exclusively attack the worst target from the monsters own perspective, and the most convenient target from the players perspective, without the players needing to do anything to trick the monster into doing so.
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Tiriturimbar
Blackwater Raiders
Tiriturimbar
12/6/2011
I am having fun playing tank again - was tired of constantly having to taunt back from dps too concerned with big numbers rather than team success who hit target other than mine - a hammer of righteous aoe hit will never keep agro on a mob member getting critted by self interested dps. Now when I am allowed the simple opportunity to set agro I can do interrupts and mitigation and kiting and pick up adds w/o having to also regrab. TYVM for making tanking fun again. Ever check the activity section of recount? I always have the highest activity number - appears I am busy enough.
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Requiemx
Muradin
Requiemx
11/27/2011
nvr had a problem with threat since dk came out
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Dirtythought
Nazgrel
Dirtythought
11/22/2011
ok first i got 3 tanks, cant wait to level them all to 90 then 95 then 100 and regear everytime (lol Yay oh boy ) just kidding hate that &*^%.. next we had Hit and defense moved on to dodge and parry. next looks like Stam and strenght? can you atleast set a cap of what stats to use and stop making these stupid changes. you want us to enjoy the game? Buff all toons and keep adding new dugeons and raids. thats really all you have to do.. no one wants to be nerfed, i think everyone hates questing and regearing all the time. lets see, ill spend 6months leveling all my toons to 90 (8 of them)4 months gearing.. enjoy the game after geared for 2 months.. then i can start all over for next patch.. makes me want to ask, why keep playing
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Kstain
Nazgrel
Kstain
11/18/2011
I always found that gaining and holding threat from high dpsers was one of the really fun things about tanking. From a dps point of view I hate running with a noob tank that no matter how much I hold back, I pull with a single crit but from a tanking point of view this just makes me less willing to tank because tanking is just way to boring now.
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Dawnfall
Darkspear
Dawnfall
11/12/2011
Really like to know about this news for TAnks PVE... I can say for myself that sometimes its frustrating you with 120% agroo in mobs and a mage or a druid balance hits 60K - 100K and your agroo goes to space, even tauting... I think thats the real point to a tanker , not worrying about only threat, and worrying about survival . I hope more news comes about it and better or role as tanks .... NOt making tanking easily, but more challenging and fun with the tools necessaries for that !!

Nice Work and Best Wishes !!!^^
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Zuelya
Garrosh
Zuelya
11/10/2011
Nice going guys! I've noticed that the tanks I heal are able to hang onto everything better, and concentrate on the boss better. It's making a big difference in my opinion. So much so, that I may MAY start tanking again on my pally. :)
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Thejeckle
Akama
Thejeckle
11/10/2011
What this post should have said is tank dmg didn't scale nearly as well as dps in FL and we need to buff threat or you will all wipe over and over.
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Talahzaram
Emerald Dream
Talahzaram
11/9/2011
I can't help but think that there's no way to get a fair amount of feedback in less than a full week after the change. That way, a range of people from newest level capped, up through raiders who're farming Ragnaros for things to sell, can have their voices heard AFTER having done several pugs.
Raids, Heroics, standard dungeons (regs), pre-built groups, lowbie/RP gear runs, all run so differently.
Personally, I like the idea that my affliction 'lock has to pause before spreading his dots like a plague so the tank gets some threat. Or a healer needs to pay SOME attention to party health from those early fight DPS pulls.
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Mickeyrourke
Shadowmoon
Mickeyrourke
11/9/2011
Best idea ever!! Should have happenend back in vanilla wow. Now other classes can go all out and no need to worry about tank not holding agro anymore. And dont blame on the tank that cant hold agro, blame on the tard dps who dont know how to hold back. Now thsi issue has been resolved. GJ Blizz =)
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Zuelya
Garrosh
Zuelya
11/10/2011
@Pillowtalks: Honey, if you've been playing since vanilla, you should know how to handle the game. They're asking for positive or negative feedback on the changes now, not for your QQ over the past 5 years you've been... pulling threat by the sound of it.
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Sterilize
Terokkar
Sterilize
11/9/2011
Speaking from a prot warrior's perpsective, I'm looking forward to at least trying a more active form of tanking detailed in Bloody Mitigation post. However, I'm not looking forward to this particular change at all.

I haven't been raiding much this xpac, so 90% of my playtime goes to running heroics and the like and threat-management is one of the fundamental hurdles to overcome that really keep me engaged/enjoying what I'm doing. If you need a threat boost for new tanks in the LFR, just have it apply to the tanking roles within the raid. Don't make a sweeping change affecting everything or my job is going to get considerably more boring and I feel as though tanking may just lose it's sparkle for me.
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Bluemayne
Eredar
Bluemayne
11/9/2011
Tanks have essentially two main roles, holding threat/mitigating damage. Now half of that equation has been removed, so where's the fun in just complicating the mitigation. It seems like it's taking a skill factor away from the tanking classes.
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Zulamplus
Draka
Zulamplus
11/8/2011
ok ghostcrawler, you've made us have 5X dmg done as threat, and its really really boring. how about we get threat decay?
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Askeww
Jubei'Thos
Askeww
10/31/2011
im playing the PTR right now as a bear tank and i cant hold threat i have been doing dungeons like the Hour of twilight ones and i cant hold threat with anything
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Bakabridget
Shadowmoon
Bakabridget
10/16/2011
You should just make it where mobs completely ignore anyone who isn't a tank. I mean who cares right? Ice block/ invisibility, why do I even have this !@#$ anyway? This change hurts other classes as well as tanks. I mean dpsing was already extremely mindless slamming my face into the keyboard and now I don't have to worry about accidentally pulling threat from a tank because of my own stupidity? At first I had no problem with dungeon finder, but now that the game is being screwed over to cater only to it, I don't like it so much anymore.
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Zuelya
Garrosh
Zuelya
11/10/2011
@Bakabridget: If you're bored by DPS, you might consider a new character, healing and tanking have some really cool aspects of play that you don't even think about as DPS, and it might spice things up. Besides, even when DPS is required to do something complex like watch their threat, in my general experience (mainly randoms and guild 5mans) they don't bother, or they can't figure out what to do. Why make more of a job for them if they're not going to do it?