Dev Watercooler -- Threat Level Midnight

Threat revisited
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog post about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat. Enough that we’re planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works.
Why have threat?
Threat’s role, just so we’re all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren’t under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It’s fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It’s fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn’t to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it’s also not fun to be bored.
That’s been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
- As I said in the previous blog post, it’s not fun to feel throttled. It’s not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It’s fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it’s not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.
Tanks are busy
- I’d also argue that our encounters aren’t really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.
Threat stats aren’t fun
- We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can’t parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)
We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren’t. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn’t very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it’s usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group’s progression.
We don’t need a more complex UI
- We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say “super compelling gameplay” you can mentally replace that with “fun.”)
Dungeon Finder
- I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn’t necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).
However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it’s the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That’s not an issue of skill. It’s just numbers. It’s also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it’s just not a lot of fun for anyone.
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them.
It’s an important distinction that the concept of “aggro” will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature’s attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we’ll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It’s fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don’t like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank’s threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see:
- Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
- In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.
Long-term changes
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today’s boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don’t want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn’t a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we’re really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it’s hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot of gut checks and wishy-washy “but how does it FEEL?” language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.

Wyrmrest Accord
Hydraxis
Ravencrest
I like making threat more simple. It's a headache for DPS to throttle, it's an instant votekick for a new tank in LFD, and frankly it just isn't that interesting.
I HATE the idea of taking tanking down the DK road. Ultimately, you're trying to put a DPS button pushing model onto tanking survivability. Tanks are big picture players. If you want tanking to get more challenging, then add more big picture mechanics. Make us move the boss or adds into a specific spot for a reason. Make us dodge one shot mechanics like breath of hettis. Force us to pick up streaming adds. Those are the tanking mechanics we love.
Tanks aren't button pushers. We're the commanders of our force. We are the big picture players (heck, there's only 1-2 of us in 10 or 25 man raids after all).
Want tanking to be more engaging? Put in more big picture, encounter based tanking challenges.
Because I'm not a button pusher.
Burning Blade
Speaking as someone who has been a Feral Tank since Classic, I've often loved the tanking experience itself, but the "big picture" isn't always enough of a thing to worry about. When my rotation was nothing but spamming Maul, Mangle and Lacerate, I felt bored to tears in most fights, because as long as everyone knew what they were supposed to do, our jobs were absolutely mind numbing.
Now I have Pulverize, which adds at least a semblance of some kind of skill to my rotation. Hell, I actually have something resembling a rotation now! Granted it doesn't make too big a difference at all, but at least I can distinguish my DPS from someone who just started playing a Feral.
And this goes for Paladin, Warriors and DK too. I've played them all. It is always funner to play the tanking specs that have more complex rotations, and more utilities to share, than those who do not.
If Blizzard can make Feral Tanking as dynamic as DK tanking, I say bring it on.
Ravencrest
Obviously there's a big mechanics difference between feral and warrior tanking. I think that rather than having "more threat / survivability" buttons to push, other tanks need more utility buttons to push. This is back to my "big picture tanking challenges" direction.
Take warbringer. I've got a macro that allows me to charge, intercept, intervene (friendly target), and cast shield block. It's one single button. It's also the most fun button for me to push, and often the most useful.
Need to pick up adds? Zoom! Friendly targeted by a big damaging boss attack . . . zip! Dragon breath/big attack incoming? Same button.
What makes it interesting is the utility it provides. I think bears need more of that. What would that utility be? I'm not sure, but I'm sure we could come up with something.
It's also a matter of Blizz continuing to make fights that are interesting for tanks.
Dragonblight
I think it would be much better to have a range of tanking styles, so people can say, "Okay, you're new to WoW and tanking... You want X class, because it's pretty simple." Meanwhile, the people who want the more complex rotations can play the more complex tanks, and the people who are in the middle can play something in the middle. (My spouse, and a friend who has slower reflexes, should have a chance to be decent tanks just as much as the people who can rock DK tanking with instant reflexes. /I/ should have a chance to be a decent tank with my bear, even if I feel like a panicked loser trying to do anything on my DK!)
Wyrmrest Accord
Even if it doesn't drop in dungeons, can't we have it in tier?
Burning Blade
You want to go back to the days when we had yet ANOTHEr set to acquire? No thanks! Why on earth would we want to have tanking specific gear? The only difference between the two would be that one has Dodge on it and the other doesn't. They would just have to rebalance us around having more dodge on our gear.
I tank in DPS gear, with the exception of my helmet, which I switch out for one with a tanking Meta gem, and my trinkets. I used to carry around extra shoulders and pants for tank-specific enchants on them, but there's really no point anymore. Stam isn't the end-all-be-all, and Mastery is just as good as Dodge in many cases.
If you want to reforge to maximize your gear for tanking, reforge your Haste (almost completely useless for bears) for Mastery if the piece doesn't have it and Dodge if it does, and leave the rest alone. You could also reforge Crit, but more Crit = more Savage Defense uptime.
But once again, you don't NEED to: I've been tanking heroic raids in DPS gear, with DPS enchants and DPS gems and DPS reforging, since Cata hit.
Wyrmrest Accord
Khaz'goroth
wind shear... yes it doesnt work so well.. but really.. its there... war and dk have...zilch in the threat dump department ... unless you mean survival like iceblock :P
Wyrmrest Accord
"Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP."
Survival *AND* utility. Not survival OR utility. Currently, elemental and enhancement have absolutely 0 survival abilities and are apparently Blizzard intentionally built the shaman toolset to be shallow for shamans.
Garona
Stormrage
Warsong
Area 52
Stormrage
It was vengeance that ruined the stat balance for tanks. In the days before, you tried to cap three stats, while keeping your ability to not die in a hit high. Gearing mattered greatly, with a lot of complexity if you chose to get the most out of your gear. Now, we find one stat to stack, and two to balance, shunning anything with hit or expertise on it. Short term, get rid of vengeance.
It feels like you're making it worse.
Ravencrest
Vengeance might not be perfect but it does solve a necessary scaling problem. Tanks now stack Mastery > Dodge/Parry > Stam. Many tanks have reached unhittable where that stat priority changes. Far more engaging than wrath.
Sentinels
Altar of Storms
Argent Dawn
I take pride in my ability to keep the members of my team alive by making sure that they were not getting hit. By controlling threat, you made everyone else's job "easier" to do (healers don't have to spend mana on healing DPS that are not getting hit, DPS don't have to lose DPS to use survival cooldowns, etc).
A good tank was/is something awesome in a group.
This change seems to be a solution to problems that had nothing to do with "good" tanks: 1) it solves the issue of the "bad" tanks by making one of the most important aspects of tanking a simple chore, 2) it allows "bad" DPS to continue being "bad" (they don't have to worry about threat as a strategy and can basically ignore that mechanic's existance completely).
Honestly, threat was never the problem. Player attentiveness and skill (or lack thereof) was/is the problem.
It's like taking all the variables out of Algebra. Now anybody can "do the math" regardless of their intellect or effort. "Solve for N: 2*N-4=16" might as well read "Solve for N where N=10: 2*N-4=16"
Madoran
Hyjal
Ravencrest
In truth, Paly tanking is the simplest tank out there. Frankly, I think the other tanks need to be simplified down to the Paly level in terms of mechanics.
Like I said in my post above, tanks aren't button mashers. We're big picture players, and tanking challenges should be big picture ones, not "mash this button at this time" DPS style ones.
Altar of Storms
Wyrmrest Accord
That's the problem out there. Please do not insist we don't know how to tank, when you're posting on a pure dps class.
Sentinels
In one of these projects, our group decided to design a new MMORPG. We made maps, storylines, hell, we even made 5 distinct classes, all of them with core abilities that were balanced around the other four classes. One of the classes used a mechanic for resource generation that I think you will find a somewhat interesting mechanic for a warrior. The system works like this,
0= I'm not angry, I probably wont punch you on purpose,
1= ok, you are making me a little mad and if you don't stop, I wont be happy,
2= Now you are making me mad and I will punch you in the face because you are making me mad
3= I thought I just punched you in the face, you are just asking for a beating
4= Ok, now I am really angry and want to kill you to make my hatred of you go away
5= <Insert Name Here> SMASH!!!!1!!!12@1@!!@@!!2212!
The way this mechanic will work, and yes you can implement it into other warrior specs (I will get into that later down the line), is that a warriors rage bar can only go up to five. Each level will have different effects that come with it, take for example at 1 rage, you aren't too angry at your target and therefore are more focused on what they are doing so that you can help mitigate damage taken from your enemy, whereas at 5 rage, you are completely enraged and hell-bent on killing your target as fast as you can in the most gory manner possible with the weapon(s) that you have, which also means you have no regard for the people around you or for yourself in the manner.
So this system works through an enrage system that we already have. At 0 rage, we get no damage buff and we get no mitigation buff because we are not focused on the enemies at that point. At 1 rage, we get a small damage buff and a mitigation buff of about 50% of the damage taken or whatever you choose to make it. At 2 rage, we get a bigger damage buff than at one rage, but the mitigation buff that we had at one rage gets cut in half to about 25% or whatever you make it to. At 3 rage, we gain a bigger damage buff, but in turn our mitigation buff falls off. At 4 rage, we gain a bigger damage buff, but in turn, we increase damage taken on ourselves by about 25% or however much you make it. And at 5 rage, We gain our highest damage increase buff, but as you can probably guess, we also take 50% increased damage taken at that level.
The way we generate rage will be different for each spec of warrior out there. For Prot, we generate rage when we taunt the target and the target hits us. You can change how much rage is generated when you get hit because I am not sure of the exact numbers for this. This may be kind of devastating for Prot warriors during multi-mob pulls, but the solution is simple, you guys were talking about shield block having to be a dependable survivability cool down that the warrior is dependent on for staying alive. All you have to do is make shield block make it so that it doesn’t allow you to go above 3 rage when it is up for its 10 second duration. Of course the talent trees for the warrior might have to be changed for this new mechanic, but I hope you see the Idea that I have for the warrior and I hope that you may be able to fidget around with it for a little bit until you find a sweet spot with it.
I will be submitting this in an email to Blizzard in hopes that they see this idea and hopefully we can discuss this concept some more. I believe this is very promising and I would like that community to comment on this new design for a warrior’s resource.
Thank you.
Madoran
Coilfang
Most are like me, we like what we are doing and find no need to change it.. no one likes relearning their class every couple years when we have just lvled up and gotten used to our new abilities. I would hate to go through all these changes and then find out that they are seriously overpowered for pvp or seriously messing it up. Then we would be back at the drawing board and time would be wasted. Just add threat gen to things and this will automatically make threat talents less needed since hitting less often will still gen threat at a greater speed. FIXED! no need to make changes that our pvp heroes will complain about.
Garrosh
To me, this is is at the crux of the whole argument.
Personally, I think that the threat issue (with respect to gear) is most dramatically exposed by over-geared DPS players choosing to participate in content that they considerably out-gear. I see people with T11/12 gear in both regular and heroic dungeons all the time. Perhaps it's because the are sick of running the same two trolls for VP over and over, or maybe they are just helping fellow guildies gear up. Whatever the reasons are, a tank who is trying to get JP while hoping for 333/346 drops too often finds themselves grouped with DPS who can put out 15-25k DPS. Now, I can maintain 20-30k threat during a pull on any of my 3 tanks (warrior, bear, pally) without trying too hard. But when a half T11, half T12 DPS player is in the group and not even remotely attempting to target my target, tanking becomes -- how shall I say this nicely -- immediately not fun.
Tanks want threat. All of it. Always. All the time. Our role is to piss off the baddies and keep them distracted while everyone else mows 'em down with big fancy combos, crits and rotations. We concede the big numbers -- a no wipe run where I muster 6-7k DPS is a WIN. We agree to mark the targets (know all of you your CC abilities, even though you may not know squat about my survivability mechanics or abilities), and take on the role of group communicator (arguably, for better or worse).
But, if/when geared DPS 'threaten' (lol) my role as the threat master in the group, I start to feel, well, threatened, inadequate, and useless. And, it's not fun.
I would classify my guild as very helpful. We have geared DPS players join new tanks in regs/heroics frequently. But, we kindly ask them to take their pants (or maybe more) off. =) I fully realize that not wearing the gear you have rightfully earned isn't "fun". But hey, geared DPS players that want to play content they outgear, with tanks that they outgear, might want to consider being team players and play nice, remembering why they are in regular Stonecore.
My warrior has a fury spec, and I can put up big time DPS numbers too. But I learned that WoW is a team sport long ago, and that if my 'big numbers' fun is coming at the expense of someone else -- namely a tank, whom is having a hard time dealing with the threat my two "rock-sticks" cause...
...sometimes it's just best to take your pants off -- because hey, doing 15k DPS without pants and no wipes (pun intended) is more fun than doing 20k between corpse runs.
Just my two bits.
Madoran
Ravencrest
I recently geared up my wife's paly tank (sitting at 84 1/2 forever) and experienced just this in instances. DPS no longer want to CC, no longer want to allow the tank to get aggro, and don't care if they pull the whole room. While just trying to keep her tank alive, I was also fighting the DPS for threat on every mob (god forbid they follow a simple kill order instead of just spamming aoe). Facing down DPS who pull 15-20 k (and burst much higher) in 333 gear isn't fun.
Steamwheedle Cartel
Hence my very, very strong desire to quit tanking via LFD (soon, almost done with VP). I'm tired of being treated like a dog by other players because I miss mobs (by design) and because I have a 15/30s 4+ aoe cool down (dragonhawk boss, I'm looking at you).
Quel'dorei
Mal'Ganis
Warsong
That said, I think the other tanks will survive having to deal with a DS-like mechanic. It's not THAT horrible.
Stormreaver
I've certainly played MMO's where threat was a much more backburner mechanic (Aion comes to mind), and they can be perfectly fun. So I'm willing to wait and see 4.3. But you're making massive changes to the game each patch while I'm waiting for better PvP reforms.
At some point don't we need to stop making massive redesigns each month and start fine tuning? This is beginning to feel like EQ2 launch, except that you guys have six years' experience so it is hard to understand why you are suddenly having these massive revelations.