Dev Watercooler -- Threat Level Midnight

Dev Watercooler -- Threat Level Midnight

Threat revisited

One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).

Back in December, I wrote a blog post about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat. Enough that we’re planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works.

Why have threat?

Threat’s role, just so we’re all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren’t under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It’s fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It’s fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn’t to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it’s also not fun to be bored.

That’s been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:

Why not have threat?

Throttling

  • As I said in the previous blog post, it’s not fun to feel throttled. It’s not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It’s fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it’s not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.

Tanks are busy

  • I’d also argue that our encounters aren’t really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.

Threat stats aren’t fun

  • We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can’t parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)  

    We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren’t. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn’t very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it’s usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group’s progression.

We don’t need a more complex UI

  •  We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say “super compelling gameplay” you can mentally replace that with “fun.”)

Dungeon Finder

  •  I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn’t necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).

    However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it’s the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That’s not an issue of skill. It’s just numbers. It’s also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it’s just not a lot of fun for anyone.


So now what?

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them.

It’s an important distinction that the concept of “aggro” will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature’s attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we’ll have to make further adjustments.)

We like abilities like Misdirect. It’s fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don’t like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank’s threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.

Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see:

  • Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
  • In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Long-term changes

You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today’s boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.

That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.

Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don’t want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn’t a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.

This is the kind of design for which we’re really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it’s hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot of gut checks and wishy-washy “but how does it FEEL?” language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
 

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.

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Rageworks
Mal'Ganis
Rageworks
8/16/2011
I understand the change GC, but at what cost?

Threat was one of the last un-tapped(and largely un-dummy-downed) places to be innovative in wow, where one could, in a sense, excel more than others by being logical and creative.

Was it really that hard to fix dps threat? No
Was tanking threat broken? No

Already there are so many posts from lackadaisical individuals making arguments for their failures as a tank, when a simple and readily accessible solution is always out there, as in almost every case of this game involving skill, technique and the comparison of others.
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Aranyszin
Muradin
Aranyszin
8/16/2011
I'll reserve final judgment, but I have to admit that this does generate a "gut instinct" of "here we go again, dumbing the game down to the lowest common denominator." It always seems to me that the game designers design the game backwards. The problem is that a generally good idea (LFGfinder) didn't work quite as well as everyone expected. It threw people together whose experience levels were far too diverse. The actual problem is not that tanks can't generate enough threat; I actually think the problem is that the developers have made leveling up and gearing up waaay to easy. Players don't have to learn how to play their class to reach top level, getting geared enough to play in harder content is a joke, and so "good" players get thrown in with "casual" players. So how do we solve the problem? Could we place an incentive on people to learn to play better? Force them to work a little harder? No, let's just make it even easier, and remove any incentive for DPS and healers to exercise control. This mentality actually makes other problems worse - allowing players to ignore mechanics like threat just encourages them to "tunnel" and do as much DPS as possible, which makes it even harder to locate players who can exercise the kind of control necessary for raiding. What concerns me is that the next step will be to make raiding easier, so people don't have to exercise situational awareness and can just tunnel tunnel tunnel while they do everything they can to "top the meters." I strongly, strongly encourage you to consider the full, long-term effect of your actions guys. The game needs to be moving in a direction of a return to its roots - a game that presented a challenge worth overcoming to move into advanced content. WoW rose to prominence because it was more than a "point and shoot" game. These kinds of moves just reinforce the qq that the "new order" of developers is doing their best to make WoW into a MMO-first person shooter. Don't forget guys, you're already down 1 million subscribers. Dumbing the game down more is not going to generate the kind of long-term, dedicated players that will keep WoW on top.
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Magnijung
Spinebreaker
Magnijung
8/16/2011
I would love to get more self healing as a paladin but I think these threat changes are way too much. I have like no hit and only trouble I have is if I miss in 1st few seconds of the fight. When pushing 2 mil threat in raids the 2nd highest threat person (if not OT) usually has 1 mil.

Do not increase multipliers. Remove miss chance for like for 1st 30 seconds. If tank cannot establish enough aggro in 30 seconds, they are doing something wrong.

Also in the current system extremely geared dps do not get grouped with new tanks. I would imagine a tank would only have issue in normal 5 man heroics if he/she cheated the system. They should not get rewarded for cheating the system.
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Noridin
Ysondre
Noridin
8/16/2011
@Magnijung: The not missing for the first 30 seconds is a great idea. Instead of their proposed changes just give tanks an ablility to increase their hit/exp for 15/30 seconds that they could use to establish threat in the begining of the fight. After that expires, they would still have their non cooldown mitigation to keep them alive for the rest of the fight.
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Sausagefan
Shandris
Sausagefan
8/16/2011
This is absolutely dreadful. When I was tanking in BC, I had a sense of pride from being a good tank. Creating good threat, managing survival, good movement of the boss, add control. How much easier is this game required to be?
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Sausagefan: Well I'm still waiting on them to give us all the same buttons labled : THREAT, DAMAGE, HEAL. then we just push which ever one we are in the mood for.
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Koica
Garrosh
Koica
8/16/2011
As a PvE healer, I humbly request that you do not make all tanks work like DKs. DKs are already incredibly annoying to heal because of the constant HP yo-yo. They are the red-headed stepchild of tanks, not something you should be copying for other classes.
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Rexzoolza
Runetotem
Rexzoolza
8/16/2011
So what can we expect to happen to abilities like Tricks of the Trade and Misdirect? I know you say, "we like them" but are they going to change in any way? What about Cower?

I think this is a good change overall. It will give people new to tanking a bit of a break and give them a chance to get into tanking.
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Analogue
Winterhoof
Analogue
8/16/2011
As a healer, I love this change. In raids, the tanks and healers should be on the same team, concerned with tank survivability. I don't want my tanks to give up mitigation just because our hunter is pulling 22k dps on a fight.

Please, please let this mean that you are also reducing healing aggro. Because ramping up threat faster is all well and good but when I'm a resto druid and every time Ryolith's adds spawn they ALL run to me, and the tank only has one taunt, well sometimes I die before he can get them off.
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Wartarge
Illidan
Wartarge
8/16/2011
I agree with Xpariah. I don't really have any problem tanking right now and have already had to change the way we tank a few times. I don't really want to do it again. Both changes for prot tanks I think is unnecessary.
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Wartarge: when they made me have "shield block" as a pally with no magic mitigation i quit... its just a useless cd that i have to push i don't want anymore dumb buttons.. and I damn well don't want to be a pretend warrior.
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Zivalinie
Eredar
Zivalinie
8/16/2011
Seriously? Instead of just putting in a threat meter you decided to make threat irrelevant so you wouldn't have to?

I guess I'm just glad you didn't realize you could do this before now. Instead of putting in combat text, let's make damage irrelevant! Instead of putting in functional raid frames, let's make healing in raids irrelevant!
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Dradin
Korialstrasz
Dradin
8/16/2011
I agree, I may just switch my warrior to prot because of this.
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Bheema
Dunemaul
Bheema
8/16/2011
As a greedy hunter i have to ask, will this also apply to hunter pets too ?
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Minaeve
Cenarius
Minaeve
8/16/2011
This would be awesome, I'm only meh-geared doing normal PUG's, and threat has become a pain in the butt lately. I have to scale back my DPS and hit cower whenever it's available, it's kind of a pain? I still have to worry about AOE and bubbles and fire and stuff, so there is plenty to focus on already!
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Minaeve: You know if you're truly casual then just deal or stop riding the fence and learn how to play
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Yassy
Kil'jaeden
Yassy
8/16/2011
I dont even know what to say with how disappointed i am with this. As if PvE content wasnt boring enough as it is, the roll i feel is most engaging, has been dumbed down to something senseless.

When will blizzard stop making sweeping changes this expansion? Just seriously stop. Fine tune what you already have. The repercussions of the long term changes of this are just going to add a whole new slew of BS problems to a game that hasnt seen anything close to parity since BC.

Seriously blizzard, just stop.
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Morphéus
Dark Iron
Morphéus
8/16/2011
@Yassy:

Clear the T11/T12 content before you insult it.

:)
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Aquahero
Vashj
Aquahero
8/16/2011
my fps is 20 with shadow quality on low
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Zunic
Darkspear
Zunic
8/16/2011
There we go Blizz, getting back on track! ;)
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Cidvicious
Fizzcrank
Cidvicious
8/16/2011
I had a bear that i stopped playing in cata because of threat issues. Threat on a primary target was never an issue but holding any peripheral or non targeted mobs was constantly a frustration in the first few moments of a fight, largely because there are a lot of dps in the game that have the patience of a hyperactive kid off of it's ridalin meds. from a DPS POV i understand why you would make some of these changes, as a rouge I find myself using ToTT as a regular part of my rotation. not just at the beginning of a fight to help the tank get threat but almost every time the CD is up to keep mobs off me, even with geared and skilled tanks.

instead, perhaps a solution could be to reduce the amount of threat that bread and butter attacks do and make it so that damage dealing cooldowns produce a dangerous amount of threat that bleeds off over time once it is spent. This will make it so that building threat is still important for tanks so that they can keep mobs during those times dps are blowing through their cooldowns and Dps will still keep those threat dumps within easy reach should they get overzealous in their boss beatings.
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Haroril
Feathermoon
Haroril
8/16/2011
It does matter, Meikos... i am one of those "undergeared" tanks (as a very casual player, i almost never raid), and i find it really hard to keep up when i group with T12 dps. I don't think that tank threat should be flatly adjusted: when i group with dps around my gearscore, threat is a non-issue. What about imposing some kind of small threat tax on dps who are vastly overgeared respect the tank? Very small indeed, i actually have a lot of fun struggling for threat with overgeared dps.

Btw, as a pally, i fully support making pally tanking based on self-healing... it is kind of natural thing to do, being a spec with so many healing spells.
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Haroril: I think casuals should fish and be happy... theres always runescape... if you want to gear then you should respect that your casual and not be upset when you fail. Its just part of being casual. Lastly casual should not determine what should or should not be a tanking nitch... self healing is when the !@#$ hits the fan... and thats it.
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Narala
Aggramar
Narala
8/16/2011
I'm fairly pumped about this... No longer do I need to worry about taking threat on my 3rd AB in the start of a fight :)
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Tylia
Norgannon
Tylia
8/16/2011
At least I'm intrigued. Mayhap this is the solution needed for the bigger groups in FL that like to ignore taunt and are no longer CC-able. But it sure is a round a bout way of fixing it...
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Oniangel
Kil'jaeden
Oniangel
8/16/2011
Ah a system that does not punish dps for not working together to focus down targets and can lead to tank deaths with the blame being placed on the tanks and healers. Think of ways to distinctly punish bad DPS game play Blizzard.
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Opheron
Windrunner
Opheron
8/16/2011
@Oniangel:

Add some sort of status debuff to a target - when a certain number of players are dpsing that target, their damage throughput will be 100% otherwise if they are the only one dpsing a target drop it to 60-75%.
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Stormygrace
Uldaman
Stormygrace
8/16/2011
DK tanks are far and away the least efficient tanking class bar none. They're horribly squishy because of no sheild, and the self healing makes them intensly frustrating to heal, I spend BIG mana on a big fast heal and right as it goes off the DK self heals and makes my sacrifice useless, now I have overhealing on the recount and when the group wipes because I OOMed people can destroy me because of my overhealing on the tank and accuse me of sleeping on the job when in reality, I was just stuck healing the worst tanking class in the game from a healer point of view. Making other tanks more like that? Really not a good idea AT ALL. If anything, make DK tanks more like the others, give them sheilds for one, the lack of a shield has NEVER made anything resembling sense.
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Stormybreeze: Yea if you have a fail dk tank who doesn't understand when to use cds its incredibly hard to time heals.
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Lakhesis
Blackhand
Lakhesis
8/16/2011
I was cringing and bracing myself when I read the start of the article, and pleasantly amazed as I got further in. Love it, absolutely love it to bits. Control & Mitigation for the win, good riddance quasi-dps element. My only concern now is whether it'll lean too heavily towards Bliz's current twitch-gaming obsession and make the new playstyle obnoxious for those of us at 300+ latency (i.e. 95% of Oceania).
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Lakhesís: god.... d@()()|\|... I cant imagine playing with that I'm only at 40 occasionally 150 if I'm DLing in the back ground... I guess !@#$ just blinks around for you... and your guild cries as you set in %^-*.. at least the healers
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Santaclaüs
Blackhand
Santaclaüs
8/16/2011
@Vortigern:
Nope, he's unparalleled skill makes up for his latency.
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Santaclaüs: what a strange world it is over there.
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Lithua
Kael'thas
Lithua
8/16/2011
Yeah, just make this game worse, you're just going to lose everybody.
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Pyroclast
Eldre'Thalas
Pyroclast
8/16/2011
@Lithua: If people quit the game over tanks being better at threat generation or having more interesting rotations then they really need to get their priorities straight.
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Razir
Undermine
Razir
8/16/2011
@Lithua: How so? Everytime I tank on my paladin, half the time Im just sitting there bored to tears because of the lack of danger I wasn't in.
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Kithalt
Whisperwind
Kithalt
8/16/2011
"Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living."
I love this idea. It solves the disconnect I've noticed in tanking ever since I started: our gameplay was almost all about threat while our focus and gearing were all about survival. I just hope the implementation is done well. I love the concept, but I'll wait to see what it looks like to judge.
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Xpariah
Lightninghoof
Xpariah
8/16/2011
The short term change is fine. Unnecessary, but fine. Vengeance isn't the best concept in the world, or generated correctly, but it's fine.

Your long term solution with regards to Protection Warriors makes me weary. We deal with you changing rage generation two times or more an expansion but please don't make me feel like another class. Homogenization is for buffs not playability. Rage is a unique mechanic that I've enjoyed since November 23, 2004.
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Vortigern
Altar of Storms
Vortigern
8/16/2011
@Xpariah: Yea.. don't nerff my shield. Its what makes me a warrior tank.
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Also, I like what else the post says you "lead" Ghostcrawler...