Dev Watercooler -- Bloody Mitigation

Dev Watercooler -- Bloody Mitigation

What Active Mitigation Actually Means, and the Future of the Blood Death Knight

We recently buffed tank threat significantly and suggested that we would fill in any potential lost gameplay with new gameplay. What I meant by that was that if tanks don’t need to hit their buttons to generate threat, they may realize they don’t need to hit most of their buttons at all, and just stand there waiting until the right time to Shield Wall. Going a GCD or two without using a combat ability is fine with us. Standing around much longer than that gets boring quickly.

What we proposed is that tanks should ideally want to hit their buttons because it keeps them alive. I didn’t elaborate on that too much except to say it would feel more like the Blood DK method of tanking, which prompted some players to state that they didn’t like the DK model, or to point out that the DK model is not just active but reactive. Fair enough.

To better explain what we meant by that we need to define active mitigation. We define it as hitting buttons regularly that have a meaningful impact on your future mitigation. You should occasionally alter your rotation depending on what is going on in the fight, but you should still mitigate regularly and not save everything for the really big, predictable hits. DKs have a little of this, but Death Strike is ultimately a heal, which is a response to damage, not damage prevention. I also think the DK model gets a bad rap because of some other mechanical problems, which aren’t really problems with active mitigation per se. So let me go into a bit more hand-waving about what active mitigation could mean for other tanks, and then I’ll share a little DK info.

 

Some Active Mitigation Models

Here are three different models for why hitting buttons can matter to tanks. It's easy to come up with alternative models, and none of these are perfect, nor are we ready to announce which is the one we’re going to try first. But these ideas can get some discussions going.
 
Model One: Tank DPS matters

This one really isn't active mitigation per se, but it is a way to make pushing buttons matter. We have berserk timers or other DPS checks on a lot of our encounters. Typically tank DPS isn’t taken seriously on these fights, which is a little puzzling at first glance. Yes, the tank may not be able to match the Enhance shaman for damage done, but also consider that the Enhance shaman would absolutely love it if she could improve her DPS by a paltry 3K. That 3K may be enough to meet that DPS check. Note that I’m not talking about tanks being able to beat out skilled DPS players; I think most of us agree that would be a little bizarre. But that doesn’t mean tank damage has to be a non-factor either. Sure, the Feral tank may be doing 16K DPS to the shaman’s 30K, but 3K is 3K.

I polled all of the class designers who raid Heroic content (which is all of them, I believe) and only one had ever given his tanks a hard time for low DPS. Sometimes it’s just not possible because of the fight dynamics. In other cases it is, but as a community, we tend to not focus on tank DPS. We sometimes ask healers to Shadow Word: Pain, even though the contribution is trivial. Go figure. Maybe we assume tanks already have enough on their plate. Maybe they really are prima donnas and we don’t want them to /ragequit. (I kid.)

One potential downside of this model is that it's just the old threat rotations but with the emphasis on DPS rather than threat per second. Ultimately, we want tanks to feel like their rotations are related to tanking and that they aren't just doing a DPS rotation with the occasional long cooldown. Another is that it makes not only stats like hit and expertise desirable, but also crit and haste, which aren’t typically on plate tanking gear. We want to make tank itemization more interesting than just “stack mastery,” but we don’t want it to be baffling either.
 
Model Two: DPS buttons provide mitigation

This is the model that several players in the community have predicted will be our approach, and the idea has some merit. Under this model, imagine that a warrior wants to hit Shield Slam because it makes his next Shield Block larger. Imagine Revenge procs a short parry buff. Devastate and Thunder Clap already have roles applying debuffs. This model we think could feel pretty intuitive. One downside is that each individual button might feel less impactful and make the experience less visceral. Shield Block feels awesome because when you push it, the damage numbers go way down, and you feel “safe” for the duration. If you replace one slice of that pie with Revenge and Shield Slam, then everything gets watered down. If the rotation is very simple, then it feels like passive mitigation; if not then it’s a stressful juggling act. Another potential downside is that keeping up multiple buffs and debuffs can be tedious. Rather than it feeling like a bonus to get those procs, it can feel like a penalty whenever they’re not up. Even if you are hit and expertise capped, sometimes you have to move away from the boss to avoid a fire ring, or you need to leave to pick up an add. If you can’t bank the mitigation benefit, then the risk is you feel like you don’t really have control over your survivability.
 
Model Three: DPS buttons build up resources

This model lets you bank the benefits. Imagine you have to build up a resource to use on short-term cooldowns. We couldn't include the Shield Walls and their ilk here, because an "oh snap" button needs to be available immediately and not in the future once you've earned some resources. But weaker cooldowns such as Shield Block and Holy Shield could certainly work this way. Imagine the paladin tank needs Crusader Strike to land to generate Holy Power, and can then decide to spend that Holy Power on Holy Shield Block or Word of Glory. Neither of those would have a cooldown in this design, so more hits landing will always be better -- it's not just a matter of hitting enough to have 100% uptime. (You'd probably also need the ability to save Holy Power more than you can today so that there was less pressure to spend a cooldown as soon as it became available.)

The choice can then become whether to use Holy Shield Block or Word of Glory. Holy Shield Block is probably your first choice, but if you screw it up or the damage is magical, or you need a reactive button instead of an active one, then Word of Glory might be a better choice. Either way, there shouldn’t be any simple answers. (As a counterpoint, deciding to spend that Holy Power on threat instead of mitigation is just never going to be interesting -- smart tanks will always use it to survive, as we saw before Protection had a Word of Glory cooldown.)

As an aside, the Feral druid's mitigation is arguably the most passive right now, and we’d want to change things like Savage Defense to be active buttons under this model. One downside of Model Three is the risk that the rotation could be too formulaic: AAAAB, for example. It could also be asking a lot of tanks -- rather than just hitting buttons to generate threat, tanks would need to pay active attention to managing a resource. No more infinite rage just for getting beat on. We want tanking to be fun, and we think that needs to include a certain degree of risk of failure for not playing well, but that doesn't mean it needs to be frustrating. Challenging and frustrating don't need to go together.
 
Again, these aren't the kind of changes we will hotfix in. It's going to take a lot of thought and a lot of feedback from players to get things feeling right. As a comparison, we still stand behind the mana adjustments we made for healers for Cataclysm. We think the healer gameplay is more engaging than it was at the end of Lich King, but that's obviously very subjective and took a lot of getting used to, even for seasoned players. We'd like to introduce the tanking changes more smoothly, but we still want to introduce them.
 
 

Bloody Death Knights

The risk of talking about one particular spec in a blog is then everyone will wonder when BM hunters or Disc priests are going to get "their" blog. It's not going to work like that, but since I referenced the DK tanking style so much in the previous tanking blog, I feel like it's appropriate to go into a little more detail about what we don't like about DK tanking (and how we’re going to fix it) so that all tanks have a better idea of what the future might hold for their own character.
 
Outbreak

One of the fundamental tensions in DK tanking is deciding whether to spend a rune on diseases (which offer necessary tanking debuffs) or save the rune for Death Strike. Our hope was that choosing how to spend the resources would be interesting. A rogue for example has to decide on whether to spend resources on Slice and Dice or Eviscerate (or a number of other things). In reality though, we don’t think this decision has been a fun one. You feel cheated if you refresh diseases and then need to Death Strike a moment later, and you feel like a bad tank if you just neglect diseases. For 4.3, we’re going to give Blood DKs a 30 second Outbreak, so they will never have to manually apply diseases to a single target. Yes, that can lead to even more Death Strikes but we think adding a fun alternative to Death Strike is not the kind of thing we can easily change for 4.3.

I feel the need to point out that we’re not just being lazy here. We understand that many players get really worn down by constant class design change, especially mid-expansion, even if they end up improving the experience overall. Deciding when to make serious changes and when to wait is a major challenge of MMO game design. I’ll try and explore this more in a future blog.
 
Blade Barrier

We originally designed this talent to encourage DKs to not sit on their runes, and it worked fine for that. However, the current model of Death Strike, which we also like, is that the timing of the Death Strike matters a great deal, encouraging you to… you guessed it… sit on your runes. We’re just going to change Blade Barrier to something more passive (and yes, temporarily more boring) for 4.3.
 
Death Strike

It sucks when Death Strike misses. "Stack hit and expertise" is an answer to that, but not one that's really viable or even fair given that other tanks will care even less about hit and expertise in the short term. Rather than making Death Strike always hit, we’re going to let it always heal you, and proc Blood Shield, even when it misses. This kind of tweak may very well be an interim solution given that everything I said above was that we want tanks to care about hitting to drive their mitigation. But we don’t think it’s fair to penalize the DK for working the “new way” while everyone else is still working the "old way," and it's too much of a change for 4.3 to apply the "new way" to the other three classes. In the long term, as in the Protadin example above, the rotation can't just be Death Strike, Death Strike, Death Strike... Death Strike.
 
Bone Shield

This change is something we’re exploring but may not pan out, so no claiming we "promised" this *cough*Abyssal Maw*cough*. So… CAVEAT: this may not come to pass. What we’re considering doing with Bone Shield is have it mitigate damage spikes. DKs are prone to spikes more so than the other tanks, particularly the paladin and warrior who can "block cap" (I assume most of you know what that entails, if not, a helpful explanation if someone asks in the comments would be appreciated). Death Strike can theoretically handle the spikes, but if you miss (less of an issue with the above change) or time your DS poorly, you might take much higher damage than other tanks from a single hit. Our idea is that Bone Shield would expend a charge to dampen those spikes specifically. If a single attack did a huge percent of your total health, then some of that attack would be automatically lessened for the cost of a charge. Smaller hits wouldn’t spend a charge.
 
Blood Shield

This is an even longer-term change. Death Strike feeling reactive is fun, and one of the things we like about how the DK tanks. Death Striking after a big hit can heal you more than Death Striking before a big hit, so you should ideally pay attention to what the boss is doing instead of just mashing buttons as soon as the runes come up. When you heal a novice DK, you may just notice they take a lot of damage. When you get in sync with a talented DK, you come to know when they are going to Death Strike and recover from big hits. However, sometimes inevitably the tank is going to hit DS too soon and not have it available a second later. Our idea is to somehow turn Blood Shield into more of a pool that you actively try to build and maintain. A system where you’re able to add to a pool of absorption would provide more granularity, which in turn would be more forgiving of errors or streaks of bad luck.
 

 

There you have it. When we're ready for the 4.3 PTR, you’ll hopefully see some of these DK changes in place. The blog we wrote that dove into our thought process for the 4.2 patch notes ended up being the most positively received blog that the class team has ever done, so we’ll definitely do one of those again for 4.3. As I mentioned, more active mitigation will probably wait for farther in the future. We might talk about how we decide on when a change is more appropriate for a hotfix, patch, or full expansion in the next developer blog. While it might be short on upcoming class changes, hopefully it will still prove interesting to some of you.
 
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft and he probably listens to your podcast.

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Tuxedo
Mannoroth
Tuxedo
4/24/2012
I think that using DPS buttons for mitigation is a bad idea. You might have to use a dps button to get a mitigation affect where the dps affect might be bad for that moment. An example might be a fight where you have to stop all dps in order not to cross a phase threshold and damage is extremely heavy during the current phase. I know DPS = threat, but this just seems a little terrifying.
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Sammichman
Gilneas
Sammichman
4/4/2012
I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm tanking, I don't want to have to worry about keeping agro and using tank spell WHILE trying to do dps...

"Trying to fix something that isn't broken", that pretty much sums it up, yes.
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Emberknight
Trollbane
Emberknight
3/16/2012
Fewer buttons to mash is better!! if you want to mash buttons play a f***ing Rogue!! or DK!
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Nezeroth
Eitrigg
Nezeroth
2/19/2012
Agreed.
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Mortarion
Blade's Edge
Mortarion
1/3/2012
Agreed, bashing on tanks for not doing the dps' job is kinda bs, ive had it done to me several times. my thought is... why should i do both my job AND yours? if that were the case we could just get a raid of tanks and healers and be g2g. everyone can heal or mitigate everything. We're TANKS not destroyers. we take the damage, not dish it out.
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Taishar
Uldum
Taishar
1/1/2012
Tanks are meat shields, plain and simple, why in the bloody ell would I bother with bringing dps if the tanks are doing the dmg. tank dmg should be exactly what you said. Dismissed and not even accounted for - same goes for healer. Screw you raid leaders who cant wait that extra 4.4123 seconds for the boss kill. let the dps worry about dps and let the tank worry about surviving and keeping threat. If you hit the !@#$ before the tank or att mobs outside of the threat box, you deserve to die. changing stuff for the sake of change is NOT an improvement. As a pally tank the only member of my group I even care about is the healer. the rest are a dime a dozen. When I play my mage or hunter I am generally top or close second in damage done and if I pull threat once a month (unintentionally) i would be surprised it was that often.
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Vendella
Twisting Nether
Vendella
12/17/2011
Blizzard's biggest mistake is that they keep fixing things that aren't broken. Leave tanks alone, we like things the way they are. If I wanted to have to mash 50 different buttons I would roll a dps class.
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Izzit
Argent Dawn
Izzit
12/21/2011
@Vendella: I agree, I started my second pally and he's prot, got him to 83 and I really enjoy it, I don't want to have to hit 9001 buttons just to stay alive or keep agro, I like my damage and the fact that I have buttons readily available to keep me alive. It's not broken, and it is enjoyable, lvl 83 and no problems yet.
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Wooklar
Shadowmoon
Wooklar
12/17/2011
I just want to say something about blood dks due to me being a fury warrior, I love my class/talent spec but against blood dk's I have a snowman's chance in hell to kill them one on one. You guys think Fury Warrior dps is too high, I do agree to some extent as I really @*@% some people in two-three hits. It's a bit ridiculous at times, but really funny and that's only if my 5 min CD is up. (I only say this because there is nothing I can do about the nerf that i'm getting.) I do get a lot of movement with but the lack of worth while stuns it makes my talent spec pretty much useless in pvp against blood dks and pretty much any healing class. I find it really bad that my talent spec has self healing with Bloodthirst, Enraged Regeneration and available talent choices to increase healing, not to mention the affect stacked mastery has on Enraged Regeneration, but a Tank's Dps is too high for me and Bloodthirst is almost useless. As a result blood dk's look for me on the battlefield because it is pretty well known that fury cannot kill a blood dk. I've even been in a one on one with full season 10 pvp gear and Ruthless weapons at the time last season and could not touch a blood dk in what looked more like pve gear with a few pvp items if that. I don't like the fact that I have to run and hope I don't get DG'd from a class/talent spec due to having no chance of killing it. I personally have a DK but I don't lvl it because of the cheapness feeling I get using such an overpowered class. They do entirely too much damage as a tank spec and have abilities that make them extremely hard to be killed by any class and impossible by my talent spec. I don't know what can be done about it. I like my warrior and do have some success even though fury is really frowned upon as a competative pvp talent spec. That being said make blood dk's good for what you made the talent spec for, not for fighting other players...especially when any spec of the dps class can kill a warrior pretty constistanly if the player is skilled. I do get the idea of the "Hero" class and all, but that shouldn't make them invincible.
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Taishar
Uldum
Taishar
1/1/2012
@Wooklar: Deathknight was the worse thing blizzard ever brought to this game, generally if there is a dk in my random, I drop group, grab my mage for a run and then come back. Or I simply keep moving the mobs out of that annoying DnD until the dk gets pist and stops using it. Nothing worse than red !@#$ all over the place overpowering all the other visuals when I am trying to avoid stuff and traps under me...
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Basalto
Azralon
Basalto
2/9/2012
@Taishar: Thats so imature and stupid. It is a gameplay and you cant say to other player how to play just because you don't like it. Go play some single player game then
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Tammuz
Blackrock
Tammuz
12/13/2011
Please don't make the functionality for all classes the same. There's no reason death knights and warriors have to work the same way. You've previously said that buffs were changed to not stack so that people could play the class they enjoy rather than raids having to bring specific people for the right buffs. If all classes of the same role feel the same to play, that makes the previous argument moot.
Personally, I enjoy tanking because it requires a lot of attention to do well, and I'd be very interested to try out an active tanking model. But if other people don't want to, that shouldn't be forced on them. Good tanks are hard enough to come by already.
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Felsmell
Magtheridon
Felsmell
12/9/2011
Their is only POWAH!
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Crazeyhorse
Antonidas
Crazeyhorse
12/6/2011
i totally agree with nevermore blizz needs to bring back the frost tanks mine was fun as hell wen they were frost
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Manximus
Kargath
Manximus
12/5/2011
The warrior made sense to me. Rage hold the mobs so DPS could kill it. Separating the two meant Tanks could hold the mob regardless of DPS and warriors were the specialists. Palis got some rage abilities too as did druids to help increase the tank population and that was cool too. But this whole shift from rage to DPS to hold mobs has been very painful and had me abandoning a LOT of work! First of all this change to DPS tanking means that really good DPser's can be nothing but trouble in a run just for being very good and well geared. This has been true since you put it in August and we've seen it with Mages already. This just compounds your balance problems and extends them to the entire DPS community. You've also taken specialty classes like Warriors and turned them into nothing more then really bad DKs.
For me, the Dks were never my cup of tea. Unfortunately, this is the third post I've seen from Blizz staff extolling the virtues of the DK and balancing things away from the other tank classes. So this is your plan to avoid loosing another 800,000 subscriptions this quarter? All you've done is wastes years of work building and maintaining multiple toons and made continuing to maintain toons fruitless and painful. I'm not going to ask what you were thinking, rather, were you thinking at
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Aurorane
Shadow Council
Aurorane
12/3/2011
I'm not fond of Greg Street typically, but some of the ideas he offered here make sense to me for a game like WoW.
Maybe it's just me; but I find tanking as a paladin to be quite boring (in PVE, anyway. In PVP it's ****ing hilarious). It'll be interesting to see how they spice things up - not near as reactive as, say, my frost death knight, who is an absolute blast to play (imo).
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Ñevermore
Bonechewer
Ñevermore
12/1/2011
i would realy prefer it if if wow would make frost tank again and instead of death strike healing for and giving us a physical shield have say obliterate provide 2 shields one that blocks physical and another that blocks spell damage make sense?
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Celestiel
Galakrond
Celestiel
12/1/2011
congrats on making a tank spec that does competitive damage with dps specs even more overpowered in pvp blood dks are now as op as they were when they first came out
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Autôpsy
Zuluhed
Autôpsy
12/1/2011
blood is op for pvp. end of story.
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Cthullhu
Dark Iron
Cthullhu
11/30/2011
lol i do as much damage as blood as i do unholy. I absolutely ***@ in PVP as blood and never seem to have a bit of trouble killing anyone. In fact i seem to kill people faster as blood in vicious gear than my lock does as afflic in ruth gear. Honestly as much fun as it is on my DK i would like to see them change that. It seems a bit rediculous.
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Septemis
Kil'jaeden
Septemis
11/29/2011
So as a blood dk should i get rid of my 2 jc only expertise gems, and cancel the reforge of my expertise?
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Aeonaxx
Feathermoon
Aeonaxx
11/29/2011
I really hope that these changes dont make pvp in tank spec more popular. No one likes a prot/blood pvper... One good thing about people who do go tank spec in pvp, is that they USUALLY cant kill a semi-skilled dps specced player. Add more dps to tank specs... that may change...
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Silentbreath
Jaedenar
Silentbreath
11/29/2011
Hey Blizz, what does it mean "tanking is not fun"? It should not be fun by pushing tons of buttons!!! Tank must control the fight well and THAT is the fun for a tank!!! I you want to have fun by pushing buttons, then go DPS. Tank should be more focused on the fight strategy and this is his/her role!!!

Blizz, it seems that you made this game but never play it to understand what gamers need.

Pay less attention to your statistics charts/reports doing their "analysis" and send your development teams to play sometimes with real gamers on real servers. The only fun I see here is that your developers have a real fun (and it is natural) by adding new features and not thinking what gamers really feel! That's annoying!
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Shadelord
Dath'Remar
Shadelord
12/2/2011
@Silentbreath:
Unfortunately, I'm not sure you could understand what it is gamers need either, as in your post prior to this you state you are completely new to tanking; kind of affects the credibility of what you are saying.
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Dyavolsmerti
Boulderfist
Dyavolsmerti
12/4/2011
@Silentbreath: There is problem right now with balancing tank classes. For example Death Knights and Druids are not a viable tank for herioc firelands (or at least they werent pre patch) this mainly was because they couldnt attain the block cap that warriors and paladins could and even if they could put out more avoidance absorbtion and heals if you couldnt put off the damage you died. some of these fixes help the problem and frankly dps is fun because you can push a ton of buttons and watch the numbers roll by so why not have tanking be that way as well so instead of sitting there like a damage sponge turn some of that damage around on your attacker
(vengeance). also not having to press a ton of buttons reduces the likelyhood that you will get caught up in your character and what really beats the thrill of really being engulfed in the fight.
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Silentbreath
Jaedenar
Silentbreath
11/29/2011
Hey guys, I am new to tanking and have a pally tank doing ZG/ZA. I love that and want to get mo experience in tanking. Can a more experienced tank shortly explain to me what does this change mean for me? How will this affect my play style? Should I be more focused on damage mitigation, self healing or doing more dps? Does this mean that i need to do more dps to maintain my threat? Why the hell I need crit and haste? From my point of view tanking is more about the controlling the fight and not that much about damage or healing. Please explain me the upcoming change in simple words lol.
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Silentbreath
Jaedenar
Silentbreath
11/29/2011
@Silentbreath: Will this affect DKs only or it is a general tendency? I am worried about my prot pally mostly :(
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Chyrin
The Venture Co
Chyrin
11/28/2011
the change to outbreak is nice, which helps the large damage spikes in the begining when you have to set up the diseases spread them and deplete your blood rune to get blood barrier, which allows a faster death strike, but the problem is not spamming death strike because its beneficial for dps, healing, and mitigation, festering strike and death and decay line up nicely, you use pestilence then death strike and your runes are all on cooldown, with death strike i seem to spam it now more, the hit expertise was never a issue, because any good threat holding tank knows you need hit and expertise yo create and hold threat, now the real problem with a dk is parry and dodge are the same but different, like stamina and mastery, the more stamina the larger the heal and bigger the bubble, with mastery you have a larger bubble, so you need both, but the changes you made make it less of a challenge, but maintaining diseases were annoying because to be honest at some points of the fight your more worried about fight mechanics of the boss then watching diseases ticking off because the cd's are more important, haste is a good tanking off stat, faster rune cooldowns and faster swing timer, dk tanks can seem slow at times, compared to unholy pressence dual wielding, which dual wielding tanking seemed more appealing because of tanking weapons had strength, when one handers generally had agility, most people dont realize dk tanking two handers are mastery, hit, expertise, and haste as a choice to pick but arent supposed to because tanks dont use haste choice, and to be honest i used bone shield as a dps boost more then mitigation use because death strike, vampric blood, and rune tap are more constant, because your not watching charges on the shield, its not going to keep you alive, icebound fortitude is for that, anti magic shield, does, bone shield is passive like trinket procs you use it but you dont realize its happening kind of like blade barrior except you try to make sure you use blood runes to keep it up, right now death knights might spike in damage more, but a dk can basically heal himself to full life, especially now the shield stacks, and maintain it for a while, you could make bone shield a passive talent, since dks get attack power from armour from bladed armour, and just increase armour to reduce damage taken and increase damage done, and if you use it as a timed damage reduction it becomes another icebound fortitude, you should turn bone shield passive and keep blade barrier as a active mitigation, this way death strike is not the only option to use as a button, and dk's have alot of buttons but most of them are for this or that case scenario, bone shield could be replaced by a nice ranged stun/interupt and have it cost runic power instead of a rune, or a damaging silence like heroic throw, but what you want it to do is what a passive ability does, and just give all tanks a 1/3 damage reduction trait amd change mastery from shield to something new, like for warriors they could heal themselves for a percentage of their bleeds or something, and paladins well have enough things they can do absorb heal dps just pick a thing and increase it,
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Heartthrob
Eitrigg
Heartthrob
11/28/2011
Seriously, they need to stop messing around with talents/abilities that either make them overpowered or entirely useless.

If people complain that 'said ability' is too overpowered, I can understand. If people complain that 'said talent' has little use, I can understand. But the developers in particular, tend to keep changing around specs and talents that we didn't ask for. Now I'm supposed to accept another big change as I am currently leveling a DK tank.

Only tweak the talents if they NEED to be changed, not when the developers feel like they need a change.
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Goldring
Fenris
Goldring
11/28/2011
It looks a little like you guys are focusing on DK's. Now for DK or Pally tanks, dps isn't usually a problem. Even druids for that matter, ones who know their class well. I have had a warrior tank for about 4 years, they are awesome for main tanking, and with the addition to rend spreading, the aoe is a bit better, but warriors (and druids) don't have something that they just lay on the ground and get mega dps from it like DK/Pallys do. So many people want to main tank with their DK/Pally, leaving someone like a Warrior tank to pick up a bunch of adds; while challenging (and sometimes fun), it's not really the best pick. (but 90% of people don't realize this, EVER! I would love to see the ground aoe taken from those certain classes, or adding some for the ones who don't. It is tough to try to discuss this with other raiders, so some groups just end up doing thing completely out of whack in my opinion. I really wish you guys would help make a class like the Warrior tank, an amidable choice for either main or off. Like i said, it can be fun and challenging, but at the same time, it's hard to watch a class like the Pally, with more rolls they can choose, get it so easy for mobs, as the warrior struggles to do so, as one of two choices they can have for their class (tank or melee).
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Ferberger
Uldaman
Ferberger
11/28/2011
@Goldring: Seriously? Two words: Critical Block. Warriors are Gods at mitigating damage. Crit Block is OP and makes warriors the prime choice for Main Tanking.
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Zahntric
Windrunner
Zahntric
11/29/2011
@Goldring: I'm not sure you really know much about tanking at all from what you posted. When did consecration get buffed? Consecration threat/damage is laughable at best, has been since 4.0 . I tank with a warrior in our all of our raids. Not sure whats up with you with your gaming experince so far but Warriors/Pally/Druid tanks are fine. L2P
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Lindbergh
Lightning's Blade
Lindbergh
11/30/2011
@Goldring: I have to agree with Zahntric. I started tanking on warriors in Vanilla, moved to Pally in TBC, druid in LK, and now splitting between Pally and warrior. Consecration DPS is laughable at best. The only advantage it has over Thunderclap is it stays a little while, so a good pally tank can set it somewhere in anticipation of adds. However, Thunderclap provides far better benefits for a warrior, in addition to the short cooldown. That, with a short cooldown AoE stun, really no warrior tank should have issues with adds. Couple that with insane mobility and they can zoom around a room and pick up about anything quickly. Sorry, it's not the class.

I continue to be disappointed in druid tanking. Not that it is not competitive, but it's a mix between boredom and handicapping. I really wish the Devs would bring druid tanking more inline with warriors since they use the same resource. Mainly the fact that charge requires rage for a druid, but not for a warrior. I just feel a druid starts a pull the weakest of all tanks unless they are chain pulling and keeping rage full. Now, the boredom sets in that once you establish agro on a druid, as GC said, druid mitigation is too passive.
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Leutiankane
Staghelm
Leutiankane
11/28/2011
well since i happen to play a tank of paladin and DK varieties i'd honestly like to so you guys QUIT Changing mechanics after we get used to them, it goes back to the old addage of "if it's NOT broke, DOn't Fix it!"
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Cybrok
Anvilmar
Cybrok
11/28/2011
this is exactly what we need, now just some rune cd buffing and let us use sheilds :D (or make 2H tank weapons)
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Zerostatic
Muradin
Zerostatic
11/27/2011
anybody palyin a dk if your spamin ds most of the time.. i feel bad 4 ya cause i dont
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Chowmonster
Gilneas
Chowmonster
11/26/2011
Keep the bloody mitigation to DK. Its what makes tanking as DK a lot more fun and unique than the other tanks.
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Why does blood shield even work the way it does? Cant you just make it act like a pally/warriors shield? Each hit takes a % of it away and absorbs 30% of the hit. I never rly liked the blood shield thing from the start. Why cant BS act like a reg shield? Or like a warriors or pallys shield block spell?
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Tylerskit
Illidan
Tylerskit
11/26/2011
@Malador: Dk's don't have shields.
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@Tylerskit: mainly because we would be the BEST taning class if we did. no offence but if we got a real shield then we would be like warriors with a hell of alot for healing abilities and with our DS+blood shield combo in addition to the shield plus dodge and parry and then rune wepon when out we could increase our mitigation to off the chart #. hence why we dont have shields cause by god blizzard would never hear the end of it from....everyone who pvps lol im sure healers healing us and the ppl we tank for would be al for us being harder to kill thus making the raid alot less likely to wipe but...pvpers i tell ya they'd be all over !@#$%in about that.