Dev Watercooler - Rate of Change

Dev Watercooler - Rate of Change

How the Developers Decide What Needs to Be Changed and When
My previous two blogs spelled out some upcoming changes. This isn’t going to be one of those blogs. If you care mostly about WoW news, and less about the design process behind the game, then you might want to skip this one.

A lot of game design is striking a balance, and I use that term not only to mean making sure that all the various classes are reasonably fair, but also to mean that it’s easy to go to one extreme or the other. You even have to strike a balance in how many changes you make. On the one extreme, if you don’t change anything, then the game feels stale and players understandably get frustrated that long-standing bugs or game problems aren’t addressed. On the other extreme, too much change can produce what we often call the “roller coaster effect,” where the game design feels unstable and players, particularly those who play the game more sporadically, can’t keep up. I wanted to discuss today some of our philosophy on change, how much is too much, and when we think a change is necessary.

First, Some Technical Background
World of Warcraft is a client-server game. The servers (which are the machines on our end) handle important, rules-y things like combat calculations and loot rolls. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, it makes it much easier to share information across groups. When a rogue stabs your priest, it’s helpful for both your computer and the rogue’s computer to agree about when and where a hit occurred and how much damage was caused (and what procs went off as a result, etc.) Second, we can trust the server in ways that we can’t trust home or public computers.

Over time, as our programming team has grown more experienced and picked up additional talented engineers, we have been able to make larger and in some cases bolder server updates without also having to update your client. Updating the client (the game on your computer) requires a patch. This can be a large patch, such as 4.2, which introduced the Molten Front questing area and the Firelands raids, or it can be a small patch, like 4.2.2, which fixed some bugs. Client patches are fairly involved. They take a lot of time to create and test, and they carry some amount of risk, because if we botch anything, we have to issue another client patch to fix it.

Changing the game code on the server has become much easier for us. There is still risk involved, but it’s also much easier for us to fix any mistakes. We call these server changes hotfixes, because often times we are able to deploy them even while you are playing. If we hotfixed Mortal Strike’s damage, you might suddenly do more or less damage in the middle of a fight. Players sometimes call changes like these stealth nerfs or buffs if we haven’t announced the hotfix yet (or in rare cases, if we don’t intend to announce them at all). We generally can’t hotfix, at least not yet, things like art, sound, or text, so we won’t, for example, add a new boss or swap a weapon’s art around without a client patch (though we could enable a boss that had been previously added via a client patch).

I mention all of that just to explain that one reason you see so many hotfixes these days is because we have the technical ability to do so. That doesn’t mean that the game has more bugs, more boneheaded design decisions, or more class balance problems than previously. It just means we can actually fix those problems today while in the past, we (and you) might have to wait for months until the next big patch day. Overall, we don’t think it’s fair to our players to make you all wait for things that are quick for us to fix. Whether or not players are excited about the change depends a lot on the nature of the change. If we fixed a bugged class ability, that is often greeted with gratitude by players playing that class… unless the fix lowers their damage, or requires them to swap out gems and enchants to benefit from the newly repaired ability.

With Great Power Comes…
That’s the challenge in all of this. If your hunter is topping meters by a small fraction, you might ask: what’s the rush? And many players do. But you have to consider that other players are miffed that their raid leader might sit a warlock in the interest of bringing a third hunter (since their damage is so awesome) or might be really frustrated that they are so likely to lose to your hunter in PvP. “Necessary change” is absolutely in the eye of the beholder.

We try to gather a lot of voluntary information from players -- when they are cancelling their subscription, for example -- about why they feel the way they do. Over time, we have seen concerns about class balance decrease and concerns about frequent game changes increase. Clearly there is a risk that we can change things too much and drive players away. The roller coaster effect of too many changes can be wearying to the community, even if each individual change is made with a noble goal. We have to balance the goal of providing fixes when we think they are warranted with the whiplash or fatigue that can come from players feeling like they constantly have to relearn how the game works. We debate constantly whether a change needs to be made immediately or whether we can sit on a problem for an extended period of time.

There are no hard and fast rules that help us resolve these conflicts, so I thought it might be easier to just give you a few examples of the kinds of things we might be tempted to change in a hotfix, patch, or expansion, and the kinds of things we would not.

Example One: Spec Parity
After looking at many raid parses, we conclude that Arcane mage damage now routinely beats Fire mage damage. (There are a lot of elements to this discussion that I’m ignoring right now in the interest of keeping the scope of the decision to something I can reasonably discuss.) For example, if Fire is better than Arcane on AE fights, that has to factor into the decision. If Fire is harder to play or if Fire is more inherently random, then that also has to factor into our decision. Even if you ignore all of those confounding issues, this is still a really tricky call. Ideally, we want players who like Fire to be able to play Fire without feeling like they are holding back their friends.

The extent to which Fire can fall behind Arcane and still be “viable” is very dependent. For some players, having the two specs within 10% damage of each other is close enough. Others will swap specs for a theoretical (i.e. not even proven empirically) 1% gain. If we could make a number of tweaks to Fire and be very confident that they bring Fire up to Arcane’s level, then we feel like we owe it to players to do so.

There are a number of risks with this decision though. If our buffs to Fire made them more dangerous in PvP, then we’d have to be very careful about the change. If more mages going Fire meant that some utility or raid buff brought by the Arcane mages was now harder to get, then we’d have to be careful about the change. But the worst outcome, from our perspective, is if we overshoot our goals. If that happens players who like Arcane might feel like they have to swap to Fire, which might involve regemming, reforging, and re-enchanting and might make them mad that they had rolled on that item that dropped last week. It just puts players in a bad position.

When players talk about being on a design roller coaster, this is often what they mean. Last week, Arcane was the spec to play. Before that, maybe it was Frost. Next week, who knows what it will be. We’ve absolutely screwed this up before, where we thought we were creating more parity between say hunter or warrior or DK specs, but the actual result was that it made players feel like they needed to respec. Given enough time, we can get pretty close on our balance tuning, but hotfixes and often even patch changes can’t always benefit from sufficient testing.

Remember, it’s not about how much damage the Fire and Arcane mage do against target dummies. What matters to players (and us) is how they do on individual encounters given a wide range of player skill, raid comp, and constantly shifting allocations of gear, PvP comps, etc. We will often take larger risks when there is a major difference in play style. It’s harder to ask an Enhancement shaman to swap to Elemental than it is to ask a Demo lock to go Destro. That may not seem fair to the player who really likes Demo, but we have to weigh the risk to the game and to the player base as a whole with even small changes that appear totally safe at first.

Example Two: Creative Use of Game Mechanics
A lot of smart people work on World of Warcraft, but there is still no way that we can compete intellectually or creatively with the combined efforts of the millions of you. Despite our best efforts, players are frighteningly brilliant at coming up with creative solutions that never occurred to us. There are a wide variety of examples here: A player finds a very old trinket, set bonus, or proc-based weapon that works really well on new content; a raid comes up with a strategy that makes a boss much easier than we intended; an Arena team finds a way to layer their crowd control or burst damage that is virtually impossible to counter.

A lot of the fun of World of Warcraft is problem solving. Our general philosophy is not to punish players for being creative. We try to give groups the benefit of the doubt as much as we can. If a boss ends up being slightly easier because players group up when we expected them to spread out, or they crowd control adds much better than we thought they were able to do, then we just silently congratulate the players for being clever. If a boss ends up being much easier than intended, then we might very well take action. (Overall though, we hotfix and patch in far more nerfs to encounters than buffs.)

Where we are more likely to take action is if it forces players into odd behavior, especially behavior that they won’t enjoy. If raids feel like they have to go farm really old content for a particular trinket, or if the raid feels like it has to sit six players in order to bring one particular spec who has an ability that trivializes a fight, then we’re more likely to do something. These kinds of changes are really subjective and involve a lot of internal discussion. Just remember that our litmus test is usually “Are players having fun?” and not “Are they doing something we didn’t expect?”

Example Three: Encounter Difficulty
With encounters, the decision almost always comes down to whether to make a hotfix or not. Waiting until patch 4.3 to make significant changes to 4.2 encounters once the focus for a lot of players moves on to 4.3 isn’t necessarily development time well spent. When new dungeons or raids launch, our initial philosophy is just to get all of the nails in the board at the same height, which means prying some up to be taller and banging a lot down to be shorter. After a week or so, we hardly ever buff encounters to make them more difficult. We tend to bundle several of these changes together, often when a new week starts, so that they tend to feel like a micro patch and not just a constant stream of boss nerfs.

For raids, we look at curves indicating the number of new players who beat an encounter each week. That slope tends to be steep at first as the most talented guilds race through the content, and then slows down as other players make progress. It’s time for us to step in when the lines flatten out and no new players are beating the content. It’s a bit easier for the five-player dungeons because we want players to prevail almost all the time. Nobody wants to go back to Throne of the Tides week after week until they finally beat Lady Naz’jar.

The statistics we look at the most are number of attempts to beat the dungeon boss, how many kills the boss gets, and how long the dungeon took to complete. Bosses such as Ozruk in Stonecore at Cataclysm launch were strong outliers. Sometimes we can handle these changes by tuning alone (lowering boss damage for instance) and sometimes we need to change encounter mechanics to the extent we can via hotfixes, which actually gives us a pretty big toolbox since almost all creature information is on the server.

Example Four: Class Rotation Change
There are a couple of sub-categories here: intentional and unintentional changes. Often we make fixes to make a class more fun to play. Allowing Arms warriors to refresh Rend without having to constantly reapply the debuff was a quality of life change to make the rotation a little less obnoxious to play. It also ended up being a moderate DPS buff as well. It forced Arms players to relearn their rotation slightly, but it was an improvement overall, and not too many players complained.

Example Five: Overpowered Specs
This would seem to be a pretty cut-and-dried case, but is one of the most controversial, because the community will never agree on when someone is overpowered or when someone is so overpowered that the developers need to step in. Being nerfed sucks. Period.

Players would typically rather we buff everyone but their spec rather than nerf their spec, even if the outcome is the same. It’s totally human nature to want other specs nerfed immediately, but when it’s your own character that’s in question, you wonder: what’s all the rush, man? Again, it comes down not to the developers being cold-hearted bastards (though we are) but to whether or not players are having fun. It’s fun for you to be a one man army. It’s not fun when the one man army rolls over you. It’s fun for you to top meters. It’s not fun for when you feel like you have no hope of competing with the guy topping meters.

Also keep in mind that when we make class adjustments via hotfix, we want to make the simplest fix possible that addresses the problem so we minimize the risk of us breaking something else and minimize how much testing we need to do before we can deploy the change. This is the main reason we are more likely to nerf via hotfix than to buff everyone else, because it’s just fewer changes. (Remember, that if we buffed everyone up to the DPS of the outlier, that we might very well have to buff creatures as well to keep you from trivializing content, which adds a lot more overhead to the change.)

I also want to point out that we virtually never make stealth class nerfs these days, at least not intentionally. It just makes players really paranoid to think their damage might change from under them. At worst, our programmers will manage to deploy a change before the community team gets it documented in the latest hotfix blog, but that situation shouldn’t usually last more than a few hours.

Example Six: Exploits
There is a gray area between when players know they are doing something they shouldn’t be doing and when they’re not sure if the developers would consider what they’re doing to be crossing the line. As I said above, we generally give players the benefit of the doubt. If they found something clever to do and it doesn’t give them an unfair advantage or make other players feel underpowered, then we will often do nothing, at least in the short term.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad guys out there who attempt to break the game in the name of personal profit or just because they have a malicious nature. We feel like we owe it to the other players to stomp out these abuses when they happen. Understandably, we also don’t want to publicize these changes too much. If one guy figured out a way to solo a boss to reap huge gold profits, we don’t then want to give ideas to thousands of other players by pointing out the loophole he found and how we fixed it. These also aren’t changes that we feel like we can sit on for very long. We need to get them out quickly.

I just wanted to point this out because sometimes players scratch their heads about a patch note that we made to prevent or discourage exploitive behavior. “Was anyone really doing this?” is a common reaction. Just remember that by their very nature, these kinds of changes are going to be on the down low, and they need to stay that way.

Example Seven: Expansions
We generally save up a lot of design changes for expansions. We know even this is too much for some players who don’t want to have to relearn their character’s rotation, let alone how glyphs work or what the new PvE difficulty philosophy is. However, we feel like we ultimately have to fix the problems we perceive in the game design if we want to keep players playing the game. In this case, we think some reasonable amount of change for change’s sake is desirable.

We hear from players who say “My dude hasn’t fundamentally changed in years,” and they want something, anything, that makes them look at their character in a new light. We don’t want to fix things that aren’t broken of course, but we do want to make sure that a new expansion feels all new. Expansions are opportunities to reinvigorate the player base and the gameplay itself. Therefore, you shouldn’t always view a class revamp as meaning your character is horribly broken and adrift on a sea of designer ignorance and apathy. We probably won’t ever reach a point where a particular class has reached perfection and no additional design iteration is necessary. Change, in moderation, is healthy.

Stuff like this is why I say game design is an art and not a science. Given the opportunity, there is no doubt various among you would make individual design decisions differently, and in some cases I have no doubt your decision might have been better. We’d love to see discussion on this issue, though. How much change is good? When can a problem chill for a few months as opposed to needing immediate attention? How much risk should we undertake to bring small, quality of life changes? Are we on the right track? Insane? Is this just more propaganda from the Ghostcrawler Throne of Lies?

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer on World of Warcraft. He has an unnatural disdain for the male night elf shoulder roll.

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Nobleteam
Altar of Storms
Nobleteam
9/13/2011
Im sorry but u justifying the changes made in lich king and cata as ways to change gameplay to keep us interested is complete bs. For the most the player base in vanilla and BC were 15+. It wsnt till late BC that younger kids started playing WoW(i understand there are exceptions some kids played befoer this) but for a majority they didnt till late BC. The changes(31 talent points only, dungeon encounters/raid mechenics simplfied so retarded my 6 year old brother can do them) was to make it easier for this player base to play and enjoy the game as blizzard saw it as a potential to hook new customers whilke throwing excuses to the current ones. Lets face it if half the players today had to face the goblin room in the original VC they rip there hair out trying to figure out they need to carefully cc everything but one mob. I still see groups of 85s intentially wipe on twins in aq40 cause the mechanics were to hard to grasp. It is what it is a company looking to make more profits. IF dumbing down the game to the point a 6 year old can level toons to 85 and actually gear them brings new customers to get addicted to the game why wouldnt they. every game has its ups and downs poeple who blame the game or a class for being overpowered blizzard shouldnt jusitfiy how or why it does what it does cause there just spewing bs to keep most of the mass happy(noobs who cant think for themselves) and people need to stop !@#$%ing bout classes and how they have made things easy and retarded get pver it there not changing it back they would lose to great a customer base if they made things challenging and hard again. So what im trying to say is players need to enjoy the game abnd stop complaing bout stuff that wnt happen its ur money ethier play the game or dnt and blizzard needs to just tell people the actual reason they make some of the drastic changes it makes and not say its to improve gameplay expereince.
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Centripital
Stormreaver
Centripital
9/13/2011
@Nobleteam: I feel as though their complete playstyle change from WotLK to Cata is well worth it. It definately made playing a healing class harder, to grasp and understand that overhealing is BAD. Also, you complained about some boss mechanics being hard, like twins in AQ40. Try grabbing a bunch of morons and going to Alysrazor, Majordomo, Ragnaros, even Baleroc. Blizzard made it so that now you don't only need a competent tank and healer combo, your dps have to be pretty intelligent too. You just may be hanging with the wrong crowd.

As for class changes, I think they're doing what needs to be done. It gives playing each class a new twist that makes it a little more interesting.
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Nobleteam
Altar of Storms
Nobleteam
9/13/2011
@Centripital: a new twist that make it more interesting are u kidding me. the old talent trees had so many more options and combinations u could do only problem was it required skill and was more challenging to master. They simplified it to the point that u dnt even have to decide when u choose a spec for the most part. has nothing to do with the wrong crowd and raid mechanics wasnt the point of the argument.... you chose like 1 of the points a made and ddecided to reply about it the whole argurmewnt is that they simplified WoW for the younger crowd and mindless mass and yeah some of the top tier bosses are hard but lets be honest whats the point in doing them if the gear really isnt that miuch better since they made it so easy to get gear(another thing to simplify the game) hence thaking the fun out of it ethier way the whole point is they made the playstyle mindless no challenge whatsoever for the most part. which is why the younger crowd and the mindless mass likes it so much they dnt have to think. they can push the sme rotation and never worry bout if they spent there talent points right cause blizz made it so u cant really choose wrong ones for the most part. the only thing blizz left for u to decide is what spec to choose.
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Nobleteam
Altar of Storms
Nobleteam
9/13/2011
@Rochetdyu: i agree making it easier to level through old content is a given to make it so ud want to make new characters BUT making new content easy to level through as well is kind of pointless dnt u think? and i didnt say anything bout kids or non intelligent people ruining the game. the fact u said that means u feel that way ur just pointing ur frustration my way and its quite clear u have a problem with young males. I didnt bother reading on when u brought non WoW issues into the mix but im sure it well thought out (sarcasm if you couldnt tell)
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Tomais
Sentinels
Tomais
9/13/2011
@Nobleteam: The change to the talent trees was needed, every spec had a cookie cutter build and if you didn't use that build you couldn't compete. Now builds still follow a similar trend but leaves much more room for play style changes. not every talent you take is going to up your dps, tanking, healing etc. but now a tallent might give an added aspect to game play that you may favor over another player that make take a different talent for the same reason. so rather than sticking to what every one else does to the T you have a bit of room to wiggle with.
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Nobleteam
Altar of Storms
Nobleteam
9/13/2011
@Tomais: deciding wether to spend ur extra five points to up ur deeps by 1% or reducing the cd on a ability u dnt use often isnt what id call wiggle room. and yes i understand every class had a cookie cutter for those players who didnt want to use skill and just wanted to faceroll most(not all players) BUT people who had skill and didnt need to use those builds to be good suffered greatly with the change as alot fo good pvp and pve players lost the ability to customize there own builds they have to do it the way everyone else is doing it now. For example back in BC vanilla Pom Pyro mages were way op but i had a frost/arcane build that always stomped that cooke cutter class. they made it so you rely less on skill and the ability to learn new ways to play ur toon or master it and more on who can keyboard smash the same rotation the fastest
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Sacrilege
Alexstrasza
Sacrilege
9/13/2011
You cant please everyone... but as a wow player since vanilla seeing the whole gambit of changes it has gone through, I personally welcomed the changes through the years. its whats kept me playing, and if people are complaining about their class being broken or other classes being over powered then roll the overpowered class and stop crying... In the end you know we love you blizzard. the hardcore will always be here right into "titan" and dabbling with diablo 3 along the way
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Highforge
Shadowmoon
Highforge
9/13/2011
Ok!!
Great job champ !!
/belly hub
Lemme say this as clearly as I can, my guild friends (about 80 players) left the game just after we started raiding Cata, cause the game now tastes now like a big pile of schnauzers.
Me and some guys decided about a month ago to come back and “taste” the game again
We are not buying another time card.
And well, what Classic players can know about the game right?
Keep up the great World of Warcraft assassination, you doing a great job slugger !!!
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Chonkster
Frostmourne
Chonkster
9/13/2011
A really great read and insight to the developers guidelines to general balancing of the classes. DK's are way too powerful and Locks are a one demensional class now, I am am not even sure what a viable use is for them anymore.....summoning......occasional rez...everyone has cc now, the horde ring was bad enough, but now everyone can do it. No other class has an anti class to them (rogues) like clothies have to suffer. PVP gears have unbalanced things so far for BG's they have become a waste of time for regular pve players. PVP gears i think should be restricted to arena and RBG's. Im sure a lot of people wont agree because that is all they do....but specialised PVP has definately unbalanced thr regular WoW world imo.
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Tigerin
Feathermoon
Tigerin
9/13/2011
Spoken like a true leader. I'm not sure why some people have such issues against you, but people have a tendency to not agree on everything: thus is human nature. Keeping a game fun whilst making changes is like trying to redirect a river without splashing yourself sometimes. If you've ever played board games like Descent then you might get the idea. Sometimes I think there are two extremes fighting, and it's whoever goes first is the winner, like a game of Magic the Gathering type 1 (all the banned stuff). There are going to be necessary changes that will aggravate people, because you can't please everyone. But, coming from my computational experience, I believe you and your crew are doing an excellent job.
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Inurendo
Garrosh
Inurendo
9/13/2011
keep up all the good work and do what u have to do to keep the world of warcraft running as smooth as u can and if stuff gets nerfed o well that is life
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Arivan
Sisters of Elune
Arivan
9/13/2011
Ghostcrawler i awesomely love you for taking the inititive to deal with all the comments. I just want to reply to your comment about fire mages. Ive been playing fire mage on my char Flamewrack since the beginning of the game and we just cant compete with dps on heroics and raid. I understand our burst damage is not accurately reflected in addins, but still my boyfriend kills me on dps all the time with the same gear, while i run around like a chicken with my head cut off to get the same damage. I absolutly love the challenge, but there seems to be no reward for my playing skill. I love the fire aoes but they do too little damage to compete with frost, and our burst damage is sub-par with arcane now after the changes. PVP fire is also a complete fail. I don't have a complete solution for you but here are my ideas:
1. Fire stuns last for longer so we can get off at least on spell in pvp before getting hit
2. AoeS need to compete with frost, i find myself using blizzard way to much instead of fire aoes the damage is much weeker, make me wish you move extra frost damage blizzard up the tree
3. Frostbolt is in my rotation of and on with fireball...why you ask...i need the slows but the fire dmg over time sux a little more on that would help combustion.
5. Cooldown on combustion is too long...thats our main damage spec, reduce to 2 mins or less with glyph?
6. I know you play mage a lot and i love you thanks for reading my post...hope all is well with your friend!
JB, PhD Nanoscientist
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Slickydk
Exodar
Slickydk
9/13/2011
Me personally would like to see a raid finder kinda like dungeon finder.Across realm for the little guys who belong to a small guild of friends. tyvm LOVE the game
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Shadelord
Kael'thas
Shadelord
9/13/2011
@Slickydk:

YES, THIS WOULD HELP SOOOO MUCH! I'm almost never able to do raids simply because my guild and entire realm for that matter is on the thinner side of life.
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Toliman
Jubei'Thos
Toliman
9/13/2011
@Shadelord: @Slickydk: it's coming in 4.3, in theory.

don't hold your breath, it may not arrive before deathwing is killed on your server, and it might end up providing the most casually deficient gameplay problems due to the inherent difficulty in players who have no voice communication to co-ordinate between servers, loot systems may not work as intended in cross-faction loot distribution, and when the first wipe happens, like every other PUG, 9 /10 players will leave, or 22/25 players will leave the raid and whine about how the system sucks.

the problem with LFR is you can't rate or reward loyalty without it being extremely prejudicial, as seen by EVERYONE who abuses the LFG system and think's its sane and normal to behave badly because the system lets them. it's not the fault of LFG, but there's a lot of reasons why people hate LFG, and 90% of the hate is for the people who unknowingly abuse it.

a decent LFR has been one of those perennial things blizzard has to troubleshoot and approve or disapprove, like face tentacles on warlocks, or the dance studio.
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Waistotime
Thunderlord
Waistotime
9/13/2011
In the beginning wow was diverse glitchy and great shamans and palli's were highly overpowered. A world prime for the birth of pvp and a vast communnity of people looking to raid to receive an acheivement.
Each class was unique and brought a unique set of abilities to the board .
Leveling was hard and SLOW omg it was so slow but damn was it rewarding everytime you dinged it felt like you had acheived a new level of greatness.
Then came The Burning Crusade Expansion and OMG was it great perhaps the greatest gaming format ever was then established. One could exceed at whatever they wanted to do and enjoy the process of getting there. Exciting new abilities skills and jewelcrafting. Individuality became the name of the game. Each class had its own rare abilities given to it for specific jobs each needed to perfect a combination in either pvp or pve.
Then came Wotlk the birth of a death knight and glyphs....... Not to bad at first but slowly and steadidly thing began to get out of hand. However, diversity still allowed for great joy, the ability to pick and choose and the possibility to change the world around you , all the way down to how others played the game. Thus wow experienced its greatest growth and became iconic .
Those days were not to last as Deathwing decided to destroy all that was good in WoW, Deathwing or Greg Street one. A new game was then brought forth and the impact and destruction wrought of the change has continued to resonate ever since.

You speak of change and how you have to do it but the truth is you gave Change that no one wanted, and when they started asking for change you give us this about how long it take to change things . When you tried to fix what wasn't broke in the past you broke so then you just went and melted it down and forged something new. Now then that everyone wants change you just tell us how hard it is to do that.
We already know it is hard we already know that it takes tireless hours of testing and countless lines of data for that we respect your job and thank you for the hard work you put into it. but it seems very apparent that you when you decide to change things its against the player base instead of with them.
Please let us do our job as players and find the miniscule mistakes that have been missed but also listen to the majority voice.
when we see things like a 342 i lvl frost mage tossing out 28k icelance crits as an instant cast and say hey man thats um rediculous please look into it a lil more than "hey lets buff icelance by 25%. Not trashing mages i have one and i almost enjoy the pure faceroll of her just using that as an example.

Please do not read this as a Q.Q. post but more as in a lil advice for the future.
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Roiiyaru
Emerald Dream
Roiiyaru
9/13/2011
@Waistotime: That was greatly worded, and I think I agree with just about every single line in there. Burning Crusade in my opinion was still and will always hold my fondest memories of this game, I never enjoyed this game so much as I did back in BC. I really wish they could bring that format of the game back.
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Ninjato
Arygos
Ninjato
9/13/2011
@Waistotime: well worded, ty , yes the rewarding side of it all.
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Misaki
Silver Hand
Misaki
9/13/2011
What's with the frequent name changes!

I just checked the forums, and it looks like quotes are still broken. The last time I tested it, first-level quotes would not correctly link to the previous author's post unless it included a valid, second-level quote in the quoted text. If the first-level quote does make a valid reference to a previous post, the first-level quote will correctly link (with #URL and character name) but the (valid) second-level quote will show up without a #URL or name; this means that if the post is edited, the first-level quote will no longer show up since the forum software returns the formatted post when editing which does not include the second-level reference. On the other hand, if the first-level quote does not include a reference, the second-level quote(s) will show up with #URL and name. This was likely the result of an intended fix to the problem of third-level quotes and clean conversations, but it seems that the problem has somehow still not been identified. It's possible that the double-space bug also exists, where the forum software attempts to match to a post with double spaces (such as many people will enter after a full stop) but a browser will only display, and therefore paste for quoting a highlighted section of text, a single space.

That was just a FYI.

Now, then. I feel sorry for other regions, because while there might be some degree of communication with the developers with the Q&A format, probably only the US-EN blog comments are being read by them. Expect this comment to be complicated.

The most prominent short-term danger to the health of WoW is likely "a lack of challenge". This can be seen, for example, in comments to the news item announcing a reduction in difficulty for normal and Heroic modes of current raid content.

The most prominent long-term danger to the health of WoW has been, and will continue to be, a lack of "broad awareness of the varying reliability of primary signals", in the sense of a quality that communicates information, in the playerbase that prevents WoW's developers from anticipating which changes are likely to lead to a game that people will want to continue to subscribe to. To be more specific, while there are plenty of people who anticipate what they would or would not enjoy in a game, there is substantial correlation between an accurate prediction of what would improve the game and a lack of action to do anything about it.

This is due both to the predominance of inaccurate predictions in the overall subscription base, but also competing goals outside of WoW that prevent people from being able to decisively state that effort spend on improving WoW will lead to positive changes in the world as a whole, due to both the opportunity cost of these efforts and also of the game itself. This manifests as a lack of desire to contradict the expressed wishes of the rest of the playerbase, no matter how inaccurate those predictions of enjoyment might be; meaning that while constructive efforts to improve the game might be made, the particular incidence of doing so drops sharply when it leads to conflict with any part of the playerbase leading to a significant divergence in the aggregate opinion that the developers will find themselves exposed to.

This bias can be understood, allowing the developers to accurately evolve the game in a positive direction, but the underlying causes that contribute to this problem in the game's community have their basis in the rest of society. In other words, there are two situations that will result in WoW's developers obtaining a more accurate signal in the community's feedback. The first is for WoW's developers to improve the overall incidence of accurate judgements in the game's playerbase through game changes that would encourage this critical approach. The second is through the resolution of problems in broader society that prevent higher competence individuals from feeling justified in contributing to improvements to WoW, removing the inherent bias in the accuracy of the community's feedback as a result of conflict.

To provide a bit more explanation on said bias and correlation, more intelligent individuals are more likely to attempt to anticipate future changes in their own situation and direct their own actions and thoughts in an active way. The most common strategy that results is to maintain the capability to anticipate conflicts and cause them to resolve in one's own favour. However, once someone has sufficient confidence in their ability to do this, they may begin to avoid conflicts and allow the ones that do occur to resolve in favour of other entities, due to the significantly different options this leads to in voluntary interactions with other individuals; the ability to complete goals without conflict is in some sense even more difficult than winning a battle, and this is part of the reason for the correlation with accurate judgement even as it leads to increased difficulty i
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Misaki
Silver Hand
Misaki
9/13/2011
increased difficulty in the verification of capabilities and demand for situations which provide this confirmation.

As one of the issues in society that lead to the correlation in feedback incidence and skewing of WoW's developers' perception of player desires (note that the conflict in this case is not actually between an intelligent player and the player that does not accurately predict what changes would be good for the game, but rather between the desires of the intelligent player and the demands society places on them due to their capabilities and their own knowledge of the existence of system failures), the reason global economic problems such as unemployment and economic inequality have not previously been addressed, and what people can do to contribute to a solution, is described here:
http://pastebin.com/Wy8B0hK9

(it may or may not be worth pointing out that the reason prices do not somehow stabilize to reduce unemployment can also be analyzed by looking at the demand curve for a single firm, as distinctly opposed to aggregate demand or demand for a specific product type, as shown here:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o245/Taemojitsu/theiPodeffect.jpg

Failure to understand this is part of why traditional economics did not correctly identify the problems with previous modeling of recessions and unemployment or the solution.)

The other situation which would lead to more accurate feedback from the game's community, as mentioned above, is to deliberately introduce more ambiguity in the measures of progress used by the community to make judgements, leading to a more critical evaluation both of one's own accomplishments and the capabilities of other participants in the game. Shallow, inaccurate judgements are at the core of the biased player feedback that influences WoW's developers' perceptions of player desires, leading to an inaccurate model of motivation and development work that does not produce the expected reception when it is released.

The basic antagonistic principles which can lead to an improvement of this situation are described at the end of the following text, although it does not pertain directly to WoW:
http://pastebin.com/Q86Zhgs9

Adopting counterbalancing arrangements of achievement measurements in this fashion has a direct influence on their use as estimations of competence or as goals, and can therefore prevent inaccurate feedback on changes to these measurements that leads to inefficient allocation of development resources or the perception by parts of the playerbase of nonconstructive change as described in this blog post.

However, as mentioned previously, the greatest short-term danger to the health of WoW is likely to be the lack of challenge for much of the content available to most players. While this is a sensitive topic in the WoW community, the implications of insufficient challenge at the individual level, and consequently the importance of providing opportunities to test one's capabilities in a constructive direction, are described here:
http://daughterofankh.blogspot.com/2011/02/skill-cap-and-mmos.html

It's worth mentioning that there is a distinct difference between reacting to problems that appear in the game, such as balancing issues in the viability of different character classes in a particular content area, and designing a game such that these problems avoid arising in the first place. I think it would be fair to say that WoW's developers to not have a precise theoretical understanding of how to minimize the number of balance changes that are necessary in character classes; low-level character performance could probably be seen as a great example of this deficiency, with no consistency over time in the difficulty a character is expected to face in leveling up. WoW's developers have mentioned that it was originally estimated during the early design process that combat with an equal-level NPC would take about one minute to complete; it is unlikely that the current developers have any particular goal of what this time frame should be.

[exceeding the 'post this today' length... oh well]

*yes finally remembered after 5 minutes... WoW wasn't originally intended to have lots of quests. They were only added in from feedback from testers who really enjoyed the questing aspect. The reason WoW became popular was not collecting magic items, or the optimization of character performance to complete content before it is reduced in difficulty, and if WoW's developers do not understand why quests made WoW popular they should consider how accurate their understanding is of player motivations in the game's current state.
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Misaki
Silver Hand
Misaki
9/13/2011
'Travel' quests, in particular, did not lead to complaints even if they took a large amount of time to complete if done as the sole purpose of a journey, and were often deferred for a significant amount of time if the character had no other reason to visit the area of the quest's destination. The complexity of interacting goals, with reaching the level cap often actually having a low priority, did not lend itself to a single-variable evaluation of a character's progress, and consequently there was no community pressure on development to make a given progression baseline easier to attain. A return to the social environment of early WoW—which some might say was more refined—is possible, but it depends on the ability for WoW's developers to understand the basis for community evaluation of metrics and the reasons that people subscribe to the game.

[it's so fun watching undo history repeat itself... then realizing that the last four minutes since saving were spent on a single sentence]

>On the other extreme, too much change can produce what we often call the “roller coaster effect,” where the game design feels unstable and players, particularly those who play the game more sporadically, can’t keep up.

If the developers make a game change because a certain spec's numbers are not the right size, does this mean players should feel obligated to respec if it will improve their character's numerical performance? If the numbers of one of several possible primary specialties were not important enough to base changes to one's character on, would the game's developers still react to a perceived or theoretical imbalance? The playerbase takes cues from the changes to the game, and this forms one component of the community expectations for character customization. Or as one the above links states,

"[A situation] which involve[s] conflicting goals, where progress in one direction causes a reduction of expected progress in another direction, promotes the self-measurement of a hidden competence metric and is therefore more useful than a single variable measurement for individuals who are not accustomed to attempting to keep track of progress outside of what is measured by the previously developed system, even if a single variable can accurately measure competence within a constrained set of assumptions"

If players feel they need to change specs to justify their participation in group content, perhaps WoW's developers should look at increasing the 'fun' of that group content and the potential to test individual player competence instead of merely treating it as a goal to be completed, as described in another of the above links. I have been told that WoW's raiding has never really been hard at the individual level, only in the difficulty of gathering enough competent players with stable connections that can meet at the same time.

>We call these server changes hotfixes, because often times we are able to deploy them even while you are playing. If we hotfixed Mortal Strike’s damage, you might suddenly do more or less damage in the middle of a fight.

If Mortal Strike's damage were not fixed, most players would not care. The need to change its damage at all is not immediately apparent in the situation leading to an analysis of class imbalance.

>I mention all of that just to explain that one reason you see so many hotfixes these days is because we have the technical ability to do so. That doesn’t mean that the game has more bugs, more boneheaded design decisions, or more class balance problems than previously.

Does a class balance problem that no one notices exist? Time between patch 1.2 and 1.3, 11 weeks. Class balance changes intended to address performance issues in raids: 0.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.3.0#Rogue

>If your hunter is topping meters by a small fraction, you might ask: what’s the rush? And many players do. But you have to consider that other players are miffed that their raid leader might sit a warlock in the interest of bringing a third hunter (since their damage is so awesome) or might be really frustrated that they are so likely to lose to your hunter in PvP.

Why does the warlock have no other groups to raid with? Is this not the fault of WoW's developers, regardless of balance issues, for not providing the tools and mechanics necessary to be able to expect the warlock can join another group? What is the timescale over which the hunter has gained this advantage in performance? It is unrealistic to expect that no raid group can gain an advantage by selective substitution based on content unless all classes have the exact same mechanics and identical abilities in their specialization roles. Designing a game that is resilient to adverse effects on player choice from leadership whims or raid group optimization should be seen as superior to the discontent that arises from the endless attempt to improve balance without really accomplishing anything at all.
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Misaki
Silver Hand
Misaki
9/13/2011
>We have to balance the goal of providing fixes when we think they are warranted with the whiplash or fatigue that can come from players feeling like they constantly have to relearn how the game works. We debate constantly whether a change needs to be made immediately or whether we can sit on a problem for an extended period of time.

There are many analogies that could apply to this situation. One might be a leaky boat.

>Ideally, we want players who like Fire to be able to play Fire without feeling like they are holding back their friends.

Are their friends having fun?

Oh and is this before or after the content is reduced in difficulty? The reason for this rhetorical question should be obvious...

...but in case it isn't, if content is not fun to do, then it would likely improve WoW's subscription numbers to improve game mechanics to make content more challenging for the individual player instead of making it trivial to complete. The reason there is no coordinated feedback that content should be made more challenging is described in the above links, but also due to the concern that WoW's developers will add mechanics that are challenging but have no social relevance. WoW once had 'login challenge' and 'avoid death from loot lag challenge' but overcoming these personal challenges had no positive effects on other players, and therefore limited relevance once competence in those areas was reached.

>A lot of the fun of World of Warcraft is problem solving.

Then a lot of gameplay in World of Warcraft must not be very fun due to the lack of problems requiring solving.

>It’s time for us to step in when the lines flatten out and no new players are beating the content.

Are the ones who haven't beaten it having fun?

>It’s a bit easier for the five-player dungeons because we want players to prevail almost all the time. Nobody wants to go back to Throne of the Tides week after week until they finally beat Lady Naz’jar.

Has it always been this way..?

Is the desire for players in the most talented guilds to have content that challenges the competence of their guild and competing guilds at odds with the desire of casual players to have fun playing the game? If content is intended to be reduced in difficulty, does it benefit the game to offer it at a higher difficulty at all? At either difficulty for the group, does it challenge the individual player enough for them to enjoy the game?

>Players would typically rather we buff everyone but their spec rather than nerf their spec, even if the outcome is the same.

Are they having fun? This is getting repetitive.

>It’s fun for you to top meters. It’s not fun for when you feel like you have no hope of competing with the guy topping meters.

Is it fun to top meters on an encounter that is not difficult?

> (Remember, that if we buffed everyone up to the DPS of the outlier, that we might very well have to buff creatures as well to keep you from trivializing content, which adds a lot more overhead to the change.)

The content is already destined to be trivialized if it isn't challenging for the individual player. The player feedback that asks for increases in character performance is the same feedback that leads to content nerfs. Instead of conceding defeat when players say content isn't fun, understand why they feel that way and how to change game mechanics to make content more difficult for the individual, not how to make it easier for the group with class buffs and content nerfs.

>We hear from players who say “My dude hasn’t fundamentally changed in years,” and they want something, anything, that makes them look at their character in a new light.

It's been a while since people treated WoW as a roleplaying game..

>Stuff like this is why I say game design is an art and not a science.

Art is a science. Sadly, Aion has not delivered as a good PvP game either... the inability of the playerbase to anticipate their benefit due to poor signal evaluation, and the ignorance of the developers on how to address flawed character interactions based on these signals, are common elements of both games. The changes made to a game and their frequency are not as important as the motivations for and goals of those changes.

WoW's developers should have enough ideas on how to progress the game in a positive direction and improve the community and its quality of feedback. If they do not act to improve the attractiveness of the product for potential users, there would seem to be nothing anyone can do to remedy this situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM3hF9fUkGs&feature=autoplay&list=PL2E110B829DF1555E&shuffle=683271
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Waistotime
Thunderlord
Waistotime
9/13/2011
@Misaki: canyou hook me up with your dope dealer pleaseeee that has to be some reallly good rock there for 5 pages of pure drivel
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Gladmax
Nagrand
Gladmax
9/13/2011
@Misaki: a truly intelligent person makes their point in a way a simpleton can understand. all you have achieved here is to show what an arrogant oik you are and flagellate your ego. your points are also poor.
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Ninjato
Arygos
Ninjato
9/13/2011
@Misaki: bunch of rambling.
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Cattybree
Thunderlord
Cattybree
9/13/2011
this post will probably never get read but i will post it anyhow.

i am silenthrills/stumpit/shavedtaco/illiania/jughots/jugdots/arwinn/plinkoarrow/bubblingfury/isabellas.
I have played everyclass to 85 and i have tried everything in this game. though i have been around since vanilla and many will try to say i am just burnt out, but this game lacks the diversity of the past. with one of everytoon at 85 i feel like i am playing almost the same toon through out most of it. forced to play idiot specs. for god sakes let me have my hybrid builds back let me have more than 31 fricking talent points let me have to go train the same spell in an upgraded fasion please. i want to feel like i get better as i progress i want to feel as if i can be an individual in the game i want to feel like i am truly in control of what i have spent so many ,days and drunken nights making.
I remember building a hybrid combat sub rogue in vanilla that topped dps charts over a destro lock and a arcane mage witha zaqndalarian hero charm, many guildies tried but never succeeded in making it work for them but it fit me. I want something new and fulfilling abgout my class/classes from cata but there isn't.
I want to PLAY a game not slave over it for the hopes some pos drop that might fall and might improve my drps by 2% or maybe it will make me fall into glancing blow hell and it will wind up getting vendored for blue that actually set in right with the numbers.
just give us wht we loved about the game back not this unimanginative recycled wad of rewashed fecal matter that we don't enjoy.
remember when an epic duel lasted 2 mins and your heart was punding and the adrenaline was rushing and afterwards win or lose your hands were shakey from the excitement and you couldnt help but smile??? does that ever happen anymore??? anyone? please tell me the class you can get that joy from i will try to play it more and maybe the fun can be found again but honestly i am just not finding it anywhere :(
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Gnomeofdoom
Elune
Gnomeofdoom
9/13/2011
All the priests are now shadow priests because Holy priests can not effectively heal in groups or raids. It is a shame because they USED to be the best healing class, now they are worthless.
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Gemgi
Norgannon
Gemgi
9/13/2011
@Gnomeofdoom: I'm a holy priest for pve situations and I don't have any problems healing. The only time I ever had a problem was when i hit level 84 and the stat changes made me oom like crazy, but once i got decent gear, things got much better. I only play shadow for pvp cus there seam to be a million pvp healing priests in my guild.
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Silenthrills
Thunderlord
Silenthrills
9/13/2011
@Rochetdyu: i have jsut finished scanning through some of your posts you seem fairly intelligent :) rare to see on forums.
You stated below the lack of social interraction, perhaps, maybe, could it have been driven that direction with the birth of RDF and then solidified by the witless design of our talent trees and now everybody has a heal / interrupt/ silence/ dispell/etc etc but the only toon left with a truly unique ability is the priest with mana burn it seems seeing as no one else can burn mana anymore.
Personally , I thought the indivdual class diversity of bc and vanilla is what really made the game social and great so many differences so many things needed to be successfull in pvp and pve (less you ran with a sl/sl lock then your pvp was covered :P).
but now players are forced into certain specs to do anything and that is just unfair to the player which has bred antimosity and slowed the social growth as well. sigh how i miss the days of old.....

WANT TO BUY A BURNING CRUSADE SERVER PLEASE!!!!!! everything just like it just before the wrath patch destroyed the fun of it all. hell we will even accept dks in thereO_O
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Ninjato
Arygos
Ninjato
9/13/2011
@Silenthrills: exactly , agreed , they diversity of it all . i would totaly play on a bc server , they could make some money of that you know.....
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Rochetdyu
Fizzcrank
Rochetdyu
9/15/2011
@Silenthrills: Thanks, again - can you still see any of my posts such as the one you responded too - because I sure can't. Looks like every post I made in this threat was methodically removed...
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Roads
Blade's Edge
Roads
9/22/2011
@Silenthrills: i have just spent all my playing time reading all of these posts. TY, you have finally made me remember all that was good about playing WoW. Bring back the fun.
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Ninjato
Arygos
Ninjato
9/13/2011
If it matters at all. I agree that the gear being so easy to get makes game less rewarding overall in the fact of getting the gear, then almost ruins the fact of USING the gear and powning with it. Ive geared my paladin to full 359-378 gear and never once touched a single raid boss of anyform at all on that toon , he is fully epic and is par with tanks who have raided full content. That realy disapoints me. My main hunter is well raided, a salty seasoned bag of joy , but the feeling back in bc and even the begining of wrath was 200 % better . i mean to earn that gear that noone els had , to farm my but off or to run something in full blues and greens having to squeeze out all we can for those grulls lair kills, and those outdoor boss kills. Making the pro gear in pve AND on pvp side so easy to get has ruined it for many many many people , these pages prove my words.
Change is needed on all these things but IMO change has nothing to do with making things easy or making things so simple gearing becomes basicly effortless. Change is geat and the nerfing to classes thats fun too , thats a must and fun as hell when it comes to your turn in 'line'. But the game can still stay rewarding in a way of ''working to get it '' kind of way. Not rewarding in the '' Get everything you want kind of way . where both feels good, if its the later way then the fun of the pvp and pve encounters in general loose some of their competitiveness. THE CHALLENGE ghost, you get what we mean . Your completly right on everything but just understand that part of it all for us , Change doesnt mean rounding edges , lets sharpen it up ! Bring back the bc sence of working for it , the thrill of owning someone in a bg so bad they make a toon on your relm just to cuss you out , or the thrill of actualy working in raids to have raid gear , not just heroicing till you resemble that of a raider , BRING BACK THE CHALLENGE. even if this isnt read by a mod, atleast someone will hear us!
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Ninjato
Arygos
Ninjato
9/13/2011
lol none of this has to do with your RL of garbage, ima remove post. you can read everyone els and summerize it yourself , its awsome your lazy in a game lol i bin playing since 06 , your last paragraph alone shows you dont even need to be on this forum :( best of luck trying to play.
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Puritanic
Hyjal
Puritanic
9/13/2011
@Ninjato: there are millions of ppl playing some stop raiding or stop playing wow for a few months and come back on and want to get back into raiding so its made easy to jump back in . Well thats my thought on the subject took me 3 sec . of thinking to get that one.
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Ninjato
Arygos
Ninjato
9/13/2011
@Puritanic: point taken forsure. very true
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Puritanic
Hyjal
Puritanic
9/13/2011
@Rochetdyu: whats with the autobiography stick to the subject were not in myspace and the subject is not on the wow player.Pls read the above watercooler.
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Ninjato
Arygos
Ninjato
9/13/2011
@Rochetdyu: im glad the fourm is such a fun social time for you. i count over 10 huge ramblings ,,,,, hence the people begging you to stay on topic.

Every single post that has bin posted here has bin saying the same thing ,, if you subtract all the trolling from the children. and the stupid questions .. then you see the heart of the actual raiders and pvpers. everyone has their own thinking but im glad most of us are on same page. If we ever want to clearly get that point acrossed, people doing all this garbage need to be fizzled out. lol
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Rochetdyu
Fizzcrank
Rochetdyu
9/15/2011
@Ninjato: Did you report me for trolling just because you didn't like what I was saying and how many words I used to say it? I was posting on topic and sharing my opinions without breaking any forums rules and I come back tonight to find all of my posts are gone. You wouldn't have anything to do with that now would you?
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Istaaria
Proudmoore
Istaaria
9/13/2011
Kia Ora

I too have posted before quite a few time stateing my displessure at changes to rotaions and I'm still of a mind to pull my account because I have invested a lot of time into my Druid. I don't quite know what ypu people did but you screwed kitty as far as I'm concerned,. I hear things about the energy regen being tied inot the ticks of bleeds so if the rotaion is not just right damage and energy goes west,.. I just want ed to thank you very much for totaly screwing my game with the last changes to kitty druids.
I DON'T care why,.. I DON'T PVP I PVE I do raids at times because I don't have a choice if I want things, and you only went halfway with that the Hat and shoulders are at the back of some high end dungeon that my gear score and the difficulty of fights put out of my reach. Its getting to point where it feels like if you can't type 150 words a min and have the hand eye cordination of a 20 year old you may as well stop paying.

1/ we need to watch for the Boss ablities
2/ we need to grab add's
3/ we need to be in right place at right second
4/ dispell that ugly debuff or get away so as not to kill others
/5 don't loose you DPS caue you get kicked from group if it to low

now you want us to watch each combo point and hit the right key at 5 to get the right tick to give us back the little extra energy that if we miss it we end up on cooldown and if we DON'T keep the buff just right we done again. If you want us to have fun why in the name of hell are you making this class harder and harder to play for Gods shake, wake up your killing it for PVE. I would not dare PVP again as kitty druid 6 strikes max and I'm outta enery under a fight situation with so much happening theres way to much to take in a once,. bad enough in a raid