Dev Watercooler - The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

The lead designers were originally going to talk about this topic at BlizzCon, but it didn’t really match the content of the rest of our “Intro to Pandaria” presentation, and seeing as how we finished our 90-minute slot with 93 seconds remaining, there wouldn’t have been room for it anyway. But several of us did bring up the issue with players and media we talked to, and it even ended up in at least one FAQ, so we figured we’d go ahead and get the information out there. Note that unlike much of what we presented for the upcoming Mists of Pandaria expansion, this is not an announcement. It’s more of a problem we’d like to address, and a couple of ways we potentially might do so. Feedback is certainly appreciated.

Big Number Syndrome
Hey, our stats are growing exponentially. If you look at everything from the Strength on a weapon to the damage being done by a Fireball crit or the amount of health the Morchok boss has, they look downright absurd compared to the numbers for level 60 characters in the original shipping version of World of Warcraft. It’s not exactly a surprise that we were going to end up here, and we knew where we were going every step of the way, yet regardless, here we are.


Fig. 1. Item level vs. character level. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat.

The numbers grew so much primarily because we wanted rewards to be compelling. Upgrading from a chestpiece that has 50 Strength into one that has 51 Strength is undeniably a DPS increase for the appropriate user, but it’s not a very exciting reward. Such negligible increases can drive players to do some weird things, such as skipping over tiers of gear or entire levels of content. This is particularly relevant when we’re talking about a new expansion. We don’t want level-85 players to have a reasonable shot at level-90 dungeons and raids (or PvP opponents) just because that content is balanced for gear that isn’t much better than what the level-85 players have.

So we arrived at this point in a logical fashion, and we don’t really think we should have handled things any differently. However, it’s still a weird place to be, and it’s about to get weirder. These aren’t real items, in that we don’t know for sure what the item levels will be in patch 5.3 and patch 6.3 (if only we planned that far ahead!) but they are reasonable guesses, and you can see just how ridiculous the items look.


Fig. 2. A theoretical item from patch 5.3.

 


Fig. 3. A theoretical item from patch 6.3.


So what do we do about it? There are two general categories of solutions. The first is to make the numbers appear more manageable and the second is to actually change the numbers.

Mega Damage
The first solution could include changes like adding commas and the like to large numbers. We could also compress all of those 1000s to Ks and all of those 1,000,000s to Ms, much like we do with boss health today. Internally, we have been calling this the “Mega Damage solution” because instead of your Fireball hitting for 6,000,000 damage, it would hit for 6 MEGA DAMAGE (queue the Arcanite Ripper guitar solo).
 


Fig. 4. Mega Damage. Name/screenshot not to be taken seriously.

If we can make numbers such as floating combat text and boss health and item stats a little easier to read at a glance, then maybe we can endure numbers increasing exponentially for many digits to come. Now there are some very real computational limitations. PCs just can’t quickly perform math on very large numbers, so we’d have to solve all of those problems as well. Even today, tanks can hit the ten digit threat cap on some encounters.

Item Level Squish
The second solution actually involves compressing item levels, which is why we call it the “item level squish solution.” If we can lower stats on items, then we can lower every other number in the game as well, such as how much damage a Fireball does or how much health a gronn has. If you look at the item level curves, you can see that most of the growth occurs at the maximum character levels for the various expansions. This is because we keep rewarding more and more powerful gear to make the new raid tier and PvP season in an expansion reward significantly better gear than the previous one. However, those huge item level jumps don’t accomplish a lot once the character level has increased again. Very few players notice or care how much of an upgrade the Black Temple loot is over the Serpentshrine Cavern loot when their characters are level 80.

With that in mind, we could go back and compress the big item level increases that occur at level 60, 70, 80 and 85. The Mists of Pandaria gear would still grow exponentially from patch to patch, but the baselines would be a lot lower. Health could go from 150,000 back down to something like 20,000. The big risk of this approach is that players will log into the new expansion and feel nerfed… even if all the other numbers are compressed as well.

In other words, your Fireball will still do the same percentage damage to a player or a creature that it does today, but the number would be smaller. Logically, this seems like it would work, and it does. But it feels weird. When we tried this internally, everyone agreed that it just felt off throwing a spell for hundreds of damage when you are used to it doing thousands of damage.

I came up with an analogy -- even though I know logically that people drive on the left side of the street in the UK (we drive on the right side of the street in the US) and wouldn’t be surprised to see it, it would still feel really disorienting if I was driving in the UK and had to make a right-hand turn.


Fig. 5. Item level vs. character level before and after ‘squish’. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat

So Now What?
As I type this today, we haven’t decided on which if either solution we want to try. Maybe we’ll come up with yet another solution. Maybe it’s the kind of thing we can put off for another expansion so that players don’t have to adjust to the new talent system and a drastic item level compression at the same time. Or maybe it’s better just to pull the Band-Aid off fast and fix everything at once. Time will tell. I did, however, want to outline the problem lest any of you believe we don’t think there is a problem. There is. We’re just not sure of the best solution yet. If your answer is that stat budgets don’t have to grow so much in order for players to still want the gear, our experience says otherwise, and thus these proposed solutions exist. Your thoughts on the matter are valuable.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. The last time he used “Fig. 5” in an article, it related fish predation to estuarine hydrocarbon contamination.

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Comments (4,925)

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Mordainius
Skywall
Mordainius
1 day, 20 hours ago
I was on the fence about this, but not anymore. Squish it. Squish it good.
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Çarved
Darkspear
Çarved
4/28/2013
Do the squish now before people get comfortable with what we have! dont wait until its to late GC!
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Argawain
Thunderhorn
Argawain
4/26/2013
Do the item squish. It's a band-aid kinda situation... Do it sooner rather than later and do it fast all at once. The pain will subside sooner and allow everything to heal.

It's better for the computers involved and ultimately talking percentage wise, nothing is actually changing. If this point is hammered into the general player base mind it will more likely stick and they will realize it's not a nerf it's taking things down a peg in order to keep producing an awesome game that gives you the opportunity to make your character grow and feel awesome again.
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Ganlon
Area 52
Ganlon
4/26/2013
I like the multiplier method. Where everything has a base item level equal to the character level it's intended for but during the current expansion items (and spell effects, MoB damage, etc) at those levels have a multiplier applied (and it should be fairly large, like x8 which would fit in well with the way things are currently tiered) so they provide exponentially bigger numbers and power while they are cutting edge.

The benefit of such a method is that the end of one tier is the beginning of another so relatively few people would log in just after an expansion goes live and find themselves suddenly doing a fraction of the damage they were doing 5 minutes earlier. And people farming old content for transmog gear, pets, mounts, etc. wouldn't be an issue as barring any instagib mechanics, it'd all still be trivial for anyone playing within the current tier.

There are issues, though. It'd likely be a fairly hard thing for Blizz as it'd pretty much require overhauling every existing item so that they all scale smoothly from 1 to whatever they think the level cap will ultimately end up being when WoW stops being developed. They'd also need to overhaul existing MoBs to fit into that scaling method.
They'd also likely need to implement a policy of normalizing tiered items as they make any formulaic scaling of items problematic. Once an expansion is done and it's items are converted to the 1x multiplier, they'd pretty much have to make every epic the same item level and only leave cosmetic differences between them. That would annoy those people who hate the idea of people who didn't put in the same amount of work becoming statistically equal, even if it'd only be temporary equality.
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Vespereva
Feathermoon
Vespereva
4/25/2013
Just do a straight squish. Nothing fancy. Nothing exotic. Just one simple addition to your formula that adds 1/2 of any equation. Its the most basic thing customers will accept as needed. Its not just that people can't calculate big numbers, its also that your servers eventually won't be able to handle it. Best cut the inflation by its very base so that any whole number means more to what is done, but not to the extreme otherwise we'll be in Runescape territory (Woot! I hit a 1 instead of a 0!)
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Dormagar
Sargeras
Dormagar
4/20/2013
I'm all for the item squish! Do it blizzard.
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Odinthor
Terenas
Odinthor
3/28/2013
Ok, I know that squishing the numbers is probably the best way to go with this, but I really like seeing the numbers we have. I like seeing my heath and thinking..."Wow, I am almost as 600k without any buffs!". I simply think it looks cool, and when on my fire mage...I like my crits for over a million. I like the big numbers...I would be sad to see them go but I am certainly not going to stop playing because of it.

As far as running content is concerned...I probably would not run something for a small increase in stats. I like looking at the VP gear vs. Raid and deciding what I need and what kind of stats I will get with said piece. If the stats for bracers, for example, is close to what I have...then I will wait until the next patch or raid....and skip that part altogether.

To make a short post long...I like the massive stats....it's just fun to see! I'm not sure what the answer is or the best way to approach it but it is something to ponder.
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Sonicgott
Feathermoon
Sonicgott
3/23/2013
If there is an item level squish planned in the future, you wouldn't be squishing the item level, you'd be squishing the numbers, not just the high end numbers, you'd be squishing them ALL. The exponential curve would still be there, but it would be far less noticeable, and whilst it would appear linear, it would not be, and people still couldn't "skip" content.
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Bogart
Winterhoof
Bogart
3/22/2013
As a pen and paper rpg player, I'd prefer item squish over mega-damage. MD is actually a term they use in Palladium Rifts and splicers, and I can tell you it gets even weirder to deal with compressed damage scales when the previous one is still in place. Not to mention SD (standard Damage) basically is negligable to someone who is in the MD range, so it would probably just make world pvp grieving all the more nasty.

With item compression, it would lessen the gap between the low and high end, and bring back meaning to some of the greens from end game zones of yor, instead of just skipping those and heading strait to the next expansion content.
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Pascoe
Illidan
Pascoe
3/22/2013
im all for the squish, just revert all numerical values to match back to the way they were in Wrath or BC. I love the 20 to 30k health pools. Also id like to see a change in burst... you have been complaining about healers not going oom, well.. if all pvp is, is burst then thats why healers dont go oom... DPs bursts healers top off, then rejen mana before the next burst. But if its all more sustained dmg then healers would be forced to constantly be healing and constantly be using mana. just my opinion.
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Ejswarlock
Firetree
Ejswarlock
3/22/2013
Squish the item levels! Make the health GO DOWN!!!! Im sick of the ridiculous health pools!
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Values
Ner'zhul
Values
2/28/2013
I'm not in favor of the item squish.

Having knowledge of how computers actually work, I know that this won't help with lag, processing, graphics, fps, etc.

That said, this is a purely aesthetic change. I do not love big numbers. I do not love small numbers. If you were proposing a change to make numbers arbitrarily bigger, I'd equally oppose it.

If you can do the squish with 0 manpower or effort, ie "mega numbers" -- fine.

But putting even a SINGLE DEVELOPER to work on this crap is time that COULD HAVE BEEN SPENT making new quests, hubs, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, arenas, abilities, classes, races, etc.

This idea is worth less than the dev's time.
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Corbantis
Lethon
Corbantis
2/22/2013
i am still in favor of a massive item lvl squish
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Mint
Ragnaros
Mint
2/5/2013
I just dont get it. This was a concern prior MoP, yet the disparity of gear ilvl in this expansion has been waaay too much and keeps contributing to this problema.

Soo?
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Shrizz
Thaurissan
Shrizz
1/23/2013
I think the numbers need to be squished, and fast. It's by far the EASIEST solution, for the programmers and the players. It might irritate some of the older, elitist players, but are they really gonna quit, come on. The smaller numbers would make the game run better for people with less CPU power and lower graphics capabilities and would make the programming much easier and may even result in shorter patches (not 100% sure on that but I'm guessing).
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Values
Ner'zhul
Values
2/28/2013
@Shrizz: You're clearly guessing about everything, because squishing numbers and ilvls would not affect CPU, graphics, programming, or anything else.

Not that I am against the idea. It's a good idea, simply for polish/cleanliness sake. But it's time invested into something that ultimately does not provide me with new content or more fun, just a cleaner game.

This game could use that manpower elsewhere.
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Reynorn
Terokkar
Reynorn
1/18/2013
Coulld you show the numbers with the K or M (or B) but do the math with just the numeric part - show 10K strength in an item tool tip, for example, but do the math with 10. You wouldn't have as fine a grain of values, but players wouldn't feel nerfed yet the computer could handle the math.
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Vierotica
Gorgonnash
Vierotica
1/9/2013
“item level squish solution.” I 100% support this idea...I actually never saw this post, but I just made one wondering how our health jumped so much in Cata. I honestly wouldn't feel nerfed I thought 100k health from the start was insane.
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Novari
Area 52
Novari
1/4/2013
20-40k health @ 80 ( 20k increase at the end of the expansion )
100-150k health @ 85 ( 50k increase at the end of the expansion )
300-???k health @ 90 ( 100k increase... during the first raid tier... )
It's getting worse...
I wouldn't be surprised if the next expansion is the one where everyone will be running around with over a million health...
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Values
Ner'zhul
Values
2/28/2013
@Novari: It's only getting "worse" if you think that higher numbers are necessarily evil.

Vanilla: 50-2000 life from level 1-60
BC: 5k-10k life from WiS to BiS
WotLK: 20k-40k life from WiS to BiS
Cata: 90k-180k life from WiS to BiS
MoP: 300k-~600k life from WiS to BiS (speculation)

Each expansion increases your life by a factor of two from worst-in-slot to best-in-slot.

Sure, 300k > 100k > 50k > 20k > 5k > 2k, but no matter how you look at it it's just a factor of two.

Exponents work that way.
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Darkwish
Nemesis
Darkwish
12/30/2012
The "squish" thing is a great idea. Now you can upgrade the hp and damage value with sense...
like a:
LK: 10k damage, 30k total hp
Cata: 15k damage, 60k total hp
MoP: 20k (or 30k) damage, 120k (or 150k) total hp
150k damage is too much...
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Emefay
Anvilmar
Emefay
12/6/2012
Squish everything by a factor of 100 at least. That will bring us back to a BC level of stats scaling. Numbers on SCT are so big its just a big blur on my UI
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Arthian
Tanaris
Arthian
12/6/2012
Besides, it might feel weird for about...2 months, and then everyone would be over it.
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Arthian
Tanaris
Arthian
12/6/2012
I vote for squish. Do it! Set up a wow voting booth or something on the WoW login screen lol
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Anshahak
Winterhoof
Anshahak
12/6/2012
I say do the item squish. Sure it might feel weird but it would be like going from driving an automatic to a manual. Sure it doesn't seem quite right in the beginning, but before you know it you will be shifting gears with out really noticing it. (god I miss my stick shift.)
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Theoldknight
Drak'thul
Theoldknight
12/2/2012
The thing with squish, if they go that way, you'd still be doing the same % of a boss's health in damage for that fireball or templar's verdict, just the damage amount's number would be lower. Still would take 100 hits or whatever to kill that same boss (if they did the squish properly). There'd really be no difference between current and squished, so IMO squish would be the way to go (IF properly executed! all around!)
except in "fig 5" there it looks like someone could use vanilla gear through BC lol, and possibly bc gear through all of LK, so it'd need to be done so that the different ranges of gear still matter
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@Theoldknight:
The gear from Classic that would still be in use through the better part of BC is from Naxx40, which is no longer available. Standard quest greens and instance blues top out right around the same item level as what you receive from Hellfire Peninsula. If you rolled into BC with raid gear, you might keep it for a zone or two depending on how far you are progressed, but that's exactly how it happened when BC launched anyway. Nothing changes.
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Ellywicket
Moon Guard
Ellywicket
10/31/2012
We need squish. There are too many big numbers, and you said it yourself, it's hard to cope. With all the lag from CRZ, it would at least help your systems out enough to reduce strain.

But please fix it, it's ridiculous.
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Values
Ner'zhul
Values
2/28/2013
@Ellywicket: Would not reduce lag at all.
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Missdotzalot
Sen'jin
Missdotzalot
10/28/2012
Exponential growth is unsustainable. Do I really need to say anything more?
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Kilak
Kalecgos
Kilak
10/23/2012
Please consider a squish. The numbers are starting to get ridiculous and I really enjoyed smaller, more manageable numbers. People will get used to the lower numbers. You just completed revamped the talent system and people (for the most part) have adjusted fine. Changing a few numbers around shouldn't have that big of an impact.
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Mawlinda
Doomhammer
Mawlinda
10/11/2012
After reading the posting and the logic behind each of the decisions, I vote for squish. Don't get me wrong I like the large numbers, but I also deal with percentages as well. Between seeing things like Mega Damage and a smaller number like we had in BC and LK I vote for the smaller numbers as long as everything scales to the numbers I see no problem with it.
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Slydeth
Kul Tiras
Slydeth
10/10/2012
I would appreciate a squish, mega damage would give me some apathy about doing more damage and not seeing it with slightly better gear.
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squish and mega damage sounds sweet. i dont care what all the other players say. there is no reason we shouldnt have stuff like that. every other mmorpg in the universe has that so wth. as for the lowering the numbers in general.... it would feel like i was nerfed. i realllllly don't like the idea. i was so excited when i said i would be able to crit in the millions. TAKE THAT AWAY BEFORE I EVEN POP ONE. i'll be so sad. T.T
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Shrizz
Thaurissan
Shrizz
1/23/2013
@ßushi: ummm, squish is actually lowering the numbers, please read stuff and comprehend fully before replying :)
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Solex
Icecrown
Solex
9/16/2012
Squish please. I can get used to smaller numbers just as easily as bigger numbers, but probably because I tend to play off percents. I know other players that love those big numbers though. Just giving my preference.

But the spade for me is that I would rather the game fixed for real rather than adding cutesy names like "mega damage" and having Blizz work on how to compute those big numbers.

Liking Nikmus' ideas on how to step it on down (two comments below).
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Jarbo
Blackrock
Jarbo
9/7/2012
SQUISH ME PLZ!
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Nikmus
Arygos
Nikmus
8/27/2012
I don't know if my idea is among one of the 4,929 (as of this posting) replies, so if it is, add my vote to that idea.

Anyway, after reading the article, it seems to be that this is a problem of both math and psychology.

The Math Problem: The computer puts certain constraints on the ways numbers are represented that can cause problems when you hit the limits of the number. "Item Squish" solves this problem, but adds to the Psychology Problem. (As a side note, ridiculously large numbers, as stated creates their own problem in that they are ridiculous.)

The Psychology Problem: By lowering the item levels and stats, there is a perception of taking a massive step backwards, and in theory people say they would prefer this, but I don't think that would be the case. (I say this mainly because only a small people understand the problem, most would just complain about their characters loss of "Epic-ness") "The Mega Damage" solution would addresses the Psychological Problem, that still leaves you with the Math Problem.

My Suggestion would be then to do both.

Part One: Start off with “The Mega Damage” solution. Start converting the numbers across the board by abbreviating the numbers. So that instead of +1250 Mastery, you would see +1.25K Mastery. Or instead of 62004 Armor, it would be 62K armor. And let that run for a while with the abbreviated numbers in place.

Part Two: Adding Item Squish. After people are used to seeing the abbreviated numbers, then you can change the math behind the numbers. An example would be to drop the abbreviation. So instead of Armor being 62K Armor, you would just have 62 armor. The Item Squish still happens, but the impact of it is a little more blurred. I think people will still feel a sting of being less, but the sting itself would be less. Instead of seeing "Critical Strike! Your fireball hit for 657K damage!" You would see "Critical Strike! Your fireball hit for 657 damage!". It still feels like you took a step backward, but I think you recover from it faster if the mechanics of the game makes it so that the 657K damage does the same % of damage pre squish, as the 657 damage would post squish.

Shifting the decimal point over three digits like that might be a little too drastic for the math in Warcraft (I have theorycrafted enough of it to know that I am oversimplifying the problem by quite a bit.) However, the main idea that I would like to propose is that the Mega Damage solution introduces the ability to abbreviate the numbers, and this would allow the Calculated Damage(exact) being viewed differently than the Displayed Damage (Abbreviated). To me this is similar to when you introduced stat ratings (Hit Rating, Crit Rating, etc...), and you were able to use this to create a kind of sliding scale to allow combat calculations to not become ridiculous. (Such as having 225% hit or anything like that doesn’t really make sense in the game mechanics.) Introducing a concept of Calculated Values (Exact) and Displayed Values (Abbreviated, or altered in some way) I would think would make it so that you would have more tools to be able to address the problem of Numerical Inflation.
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Teslo
Doomhammer
Teslo
8/27/2012
With so many comments on this thread I don't know if this has been suggested yet, or addressed in the manner I am about to. Let's start with the popular vote, the Item Squish.

Everyone sees this as the best solution, and it makes sense why. Top-end players are used to the damage they deal, and if they're aware of the change, they will have no problem adjusting to seeing smaller numbers pouring out as they perform hacks, slashes, and spell blasts. Newer players won't know there was ever a difference. But... we run into the same issue. What then? Squish it again? After two or three squishes (Admittedly several years apart. How much longer will WoW be around?) you start approaching that point where you're seeing a breast plate give 50 strength in Tier 1 and 51 Strength in Tier 2. Again, this means nothing to the top-end players, and it means nothing to the new folks. So where's the problem? The problem is that when you get to that point, the new players will start "Doing weird things" like skipping content. Why go to Northrend at all from 70 - 80 when the top end gear from Northrend grants you 10 more points of [insert pertinent stat here] than the stuff you had at the end of Burning Crusade content? At this point you may be able to skip both Northrend AND Outland and just go straight from "Vanilla" level stuff to Cataclysm content. It's more of the same invalidation of old content that we've seen the older raids falling prey to, but on a much grander scale.

Mega Damage. Condensing numbers and tacking on K's and M's doesn't change the system at all, it just makes it more visually pleasing. This will be okay to almost everyone, as the complicated stuff gets handled in the background. One benefit to this is that you get players looking at new gear and dropping jaws at the insane stats on them. This creates a rush of adrenaline and pleasure chemicals in the players brain that you don't get if you see "Increases Crit Chance by 12". The negative side to this is, of course, that you haven't solved the underlying design issue.

There's definitely something to be said for tossing out giant numbers and being able to one-shot old-content raid bosses (As we will be able to start doing in the expansion after Mists, if math serves true), but at the same time it's becoming bulky and unmanageable, as the two pieces of theoretical gear prove (Did anyone else try CTRL-Clicking them to see the graphics? No? I'm the only crazy one? Big surprise...).

The best solution, in my mind, would be to offer up a new system of damage in new expansions. Maybe instead of hitpoints you have to work through a bosses Stamina first. Gear damage and stats could be kept where they are now (To avoid both the iLevel crunch AND the MEGA DAMAGE *rippin' guitar solo* scenario's), but new gear would have an additional stat on it that transformed damage dealt to enemies over a certain level into Stamina damage FIRST, then worked through the HP's. This is an opportunity to further differentiate the PvE vs. PvP systems, as PvP gear would not have this stat on it. This new system could be more accurately planned out over the course of however many expansions you think there will be, to avoid this situation coming up again.

That's obviously just an example, and to be honest it's not the best idea either. But I'm not getting paid to come up with this stuff...
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Item squish, it would feel like we are using hacked items in the game