Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Our recent talent calculator changes led to some players asking questions about how character and item stats were changing, because some spell and talent tooltips suggest that changes are coming. We compiled this list to attempt to explain more of what’s coming in Mists of Pandaria. First of all, please note that we actually aren’t making many stat changes compared to the ones we made in Cataclysm (“armor penetration -- gone!”). Second, the stuff below can get a little technical. If you’re not into the subtle nuance of gear itemization, then don’t worry about it -- you don’t need to be to enjoy the expansion -- but we know there are plenty of you who enjoy some nuts and bolts talk, so here we go.

Spell Resistance

  • Spell resistance is gone. There are no buffs that improve it and there shouldn’t be much, if any, spell resist gear left. We always thought the system was hard to understand and we weren’t getting much gameplay out of it. Now taking a step back, we can imagine how to develop a game where you’d want various forms of resist gear for certain situations and opponents. Resist gear could potentially be interesting, but it isn’t currently in World of Warcraft -- the game has just been moving away from that sort of thing for years.
  • In the absence of spell resistance, there is no need for spell penetration on gear, so we’ll remove it as well.

Hit and Expertise

  • We still think having stats that can be capped is a good game design. Rather than focusing solely on stacking your best stat, you have to decide how valuable it is to hit your target before you go back to stacking your best stat. However, we are making some changes.
  • Hit and spell hit will no longer be separate stats. The hit stat negates melee miss and spell miss.
  • Expertise will negate dodge and spell miss, then parry.
  • Expertise will be listed as a percentage, just like hit, instead of having an intermediary stat.  
  • We are normalizing hit with expertise, so that 1% of each stat will require the same amount of rating.
  • We are normalizing melee and spell hit, so that spell miss is equal to melee miss plus dodge.
    • Against an equal level creature: 6% spell miss, 3% melee miss, 3% dodge, 3% parry (from the front only), 3% block (from the front only).
    • Against a +1 level creature: 9% spell miss, 4.5% melee miss, 4.5% dodge, 4.5% parry (from the front only), 4.5% Block (from the front only).
    • Against a +2 level creature: 12% spell miss, 6% melee miss, 6% dodge, 6% parry (from the front only), 6% Block (from the front only).
    • Against a +3/boss level creature: 15% spell miss, 7.5% melee miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry (from the front only), 7.5% block (from the front only).
    • Ranged attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily.

Block

  •  The chance to block will be handled by a separate combat roll for each attack that is not avoided. In other words, we first determine if an attack misses, or is dodged or parried. If it is not, then the attack has a chance to be blocked.
  • This gives block a consistent value, regardless of avoidance. Currently block becomes more valuable the more you have.
  • Block will also have diminishing returns, much like dodge and parry. This doesn’t mean that the value of block will go down as you get more block. It means that it won’t go up by as much when you get more block.
  • We don’t expect Protection warriors or paladins to get “block capped” other than during temporary effects, such as mastery procs on trinkets. Block tanks will be balanced around this change. Our intent is to make playing block tanks more fun, not to nerf them.
  • Also notice how Shield Block and Shield of the Righteous have changed in Mists.

Criticals

  • All spells and abilities will crit for double damage, baseline. There are a few exceptions where crits can get larger, but the default is x 2.0 for everyone.
  • This means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue poisons will crit for double damage. Rogue poisons will also use the melee hit chance.

Resilience

  •  We are renaming this stat to “Defense (PvP)” or possibly “PvP Defense.” All players will have 30% base Defense, the same way all characters have some base Stamina.
  • PvP gear will have Defense on it, as well as a new stat, “Power (PvP).” Power increases the damage you do to other players as well as the healing you do to other players in PvP situations.
  •  If you have a lot of Power, you’ll do more damage to other players, but they likely have Defense as well. If you fight players in lots of PvE gear, they’ll take more damage. Likewise, a player in PvE gear won’t have enough Power to effectively penetrate your Defense.
  • The names PvP Power and PvP Defense may not be final, but we’re leaning towards going with stat names that are obviously PvP-related, rather than “fluffier” names that might not be as easy to grasp. We want it to be clear to players that neither Power nor Defense have any relevance when fighting creatures, such as in dungeons or raids.
  • PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier, however the Power and Defense stats will make sure that PvP gear is more powerful in PvP (both offensively and defensively) than PvE gear. In our budgeting system, the PvP stats will be free rather than causing other stats, such as Strength or haste, to be smaller as a result of including Power or Defense.
  • The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. Currently, we feel it is too large a barrier to go from one to the other, and the result has been that we see more and more players choosing to focus exclusively on only PvP or PvE. In earlier expansions, it was more feasible to use PvE gear in Arenas or Battlegrounds until you acquired the more useful PvP gear. The same was true of being able to use your PvP gear in a dungeon or raid until you acquired something better. In Cataclysm, stepping into PvP with no PvP gear would result in a player being so ineffective that it was difficult to even make progress towards acquiring PvP gear.
  • For the higher-end of PvP or PvE (say Gladiators or heroic raiders), we believe those players will still gravitate towards the dedicated PvP or PvE gear. It is the players who are working towards those two end games that will benefit more from some cross over.

That’s a lot of information, and it probably sounds more set-in-stone than it really is. We’ll continue to iterate as players poke holes in our ideas, tell us what is working out and what isn’t, and finally get to experience it first hand in beta.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He didn’t name Mogu’dar, Blade of a Thousand Slaves, but he wishes he had.

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Níghtlove
Moon Guard
Níghtlove
5/1/2012
I think earning the PvP gear is part of the PvP experience. Its a reward for your dedication to refine your methods and strat. I think if your in a battle ground there should be no need to switch around from PvP gear to PvE. As mentioned in the article above there will be no benefit for PvP power or PvP defense against NPCs. The bosses of Alterec Valley for instance are NPCs and essential for victory. I've been in battles where its a DPS race and is taken to less than a 1% difference for victory. I think having the new PvP power and PvP defense should benefit against NPCs in battle grounds only. That way though both PvE and PvP will be easier to break into, there is still content to explore, and rewards that are truely earned.
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Emsy
Galakrond
Emsy
5/1/2012
I really don't think we need pvp gear just a certain percents less damage to players. That way we don't have to spend all that time trying to aquire it. No more weekly conquest points caps or honor points cap. No more haveing two sets gear. Saving gold in enchantments and bag space. No more people farming for honor points in bgs. And then you could seperate groups of people by item level. There are a lot of details that would have to be workd out, but the result is players would spend more time pvping and less time aquiring pvp gear.
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Krittykreme
Bloodhoof
Krittykreme
5/1/2012
@Emsy: The problem is, this creates an imbalance in PVP. It gives high end raiders a real advantage in PVP since they have access to much higher stat level gear. i.e. someone who only PVPs will be at a big disadvantage.
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Styde
Mannoroth
Styde
4/30/2012
Against an equal level creature: 6% spell miss, 3% melee miss, 3% dodge, 3% parry (from the front only), 3% block (from the front only).

Against a +1 level creature: 9% spell miss, 4.5% melee miss, 4.5% dodge, 4.5% parry (from the front only), 4.5% Block (from the front only).

Against a +2 level creature: 12% spell miss, 6% melee miss, 6% dodge, 6% parry (from the front only), 6% Block (from the front only).

Against a +3/boss level creature: 15% spell miss, 7.5% melee miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry (from the front only), 7.5% block (from the front only).

I specifically remember a certain loading screen tip saying creatures can't dodge attacks coming from behind them.
Has this changed?
Or did someone not proof read?
Because you should specify when writing a stat change article.
Ex.)
"Against an equal level creature: 6% spell miss, 3% melee miss, 3% dodge (from the front only), 3% parry (from the front only), 3% block (from the front only)."
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Allaalia
Mannoroth
Allaalia
4/30/2012
@Styde: You're mistaken, the loading screen says they can in fact dodge from behind.
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Styde
Mannoroth
Styde
4/30/2012
@Allaalia: Ahh, you're right, my mistake ^^...
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Thìstle
Shandris
Thìstle
4/30/2012
Here we go again, dumb down the game so nabz can play better. Soon guildless people who get instant 85 and dont know how to play will be walking around in the highest lvl gear. Where's the teamwork? Where's the time and effort that players should be putting in to be the best of the best? Imo this game is now solely for casuals who spend 15 minutes online and the rest of the day getting mani pedis. What the real fans of WoW want are challenges not to have fancy gear handed to us on an easy plate.
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Creepycrawln
Alterac Mountains
Creepycrawln
4/30/2012
When I'm taking a toon from PVE to PVP I generally focus on competing in Tol Barad and focus on AV, and Isle of Conquest. With the massive number of players involved I don't effect the outcome as much as I would in a WSG, TP, or some other 10-15 man bg. Plus my PVE gear has some uses against the PVE bosses of these battle grounds so I can contribute a small amount. I don't find it difficult to transition from PVE to PVP at all.

Okay, if I come across a ruthless geared player then I get blown up in PVE gear, however that is the price you pay for PVP. There are also the blue crafted sets which give you a base level of resil.

I'm not against the change, I'm just not so sure it was as necessary as what blizz has made out. This rogue was completely PVE specced and geared when I started out. I crafted myself the PVP set and jumped right in.

Being a rogue and with low resil I was squishy yet not ineffective. I've done the same with a shadow priest, and a mage, and soon with a DK. Its all about your strategy.
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Honeytdrew
Arathor
Honeytdrew
4/30/2012
Whoever needs a scroll email at Prunella_star@yahoo.com.sg. I will reply ASAP :)
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Seroquol
Saurfang
Seroquol
4/30/2012
Every expansion release there is a WoW GFC. Making gold sellers a fortune in online sales. Everyday I see characters that have obviously been bought farmed or just plain old stolen. I figure its about time this issue was addressed. even something simple like putting a MAX value on an item for Auction House pricing. Expansions should improve the player experience not just add stuff and then gymp all of our abilities.
Also Justice to honor and valor to conquest trade should be removed imo.
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Mitexi
Suramar
Mitexi
5/1/2012
@Seroquol: I agree with the max price in AH! on my realm lvl 30 gear is 2000g for the look! and I've heard suramar ah prices are alot worse than others.
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Ravinous
Echo Isles
Ravinous
4/30/2012
Honestly the concept of PvP in this game is seriously messed up. It should have always been about World PvP. Specifically moving towards daily/weekly quests to go into the other factions town/cities to kill specific NPC's, kill x number of players, occupy area for x number of minutes, etc... etc...

There could have even been the aspect that FFXI had were if the other faction held a specific area, or had a higher presence in that area then goods that "came from" that area would either be sold at a higher price, lower price, or not at all. Even special items could have been thrown into the mix for say holding said zone for a week or so.
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Neoncat
Sargeras
Neoncat
5/1/2012
@Ravinous:thank you someone else tht understands the concept the point of pvp is too kill people all around the world not just in some little objective game were every one crys about you sitting middle and ofcourse they made guards were they hit u in stealth and gave them all these goad awfull buffs now its dead enless your a rogue..
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Kalazard
Alterac Mountains
Kalazard
5/1/2012
@Ravinous: Dear Blizzard please hire Ravinous to fix your PVP system. Revinous describes what I miss about World of Warcraft prior to the Burning Crusade.
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Sunless
Daggerspine
Sunless
4/29/2012
The same was true of being able to use your PvP gear in a dungeon or raid until you acquired something better. In Cataclysm, stepping into PvP with no PvP gear would result in a player being so ineffective that it was difficult to even make progress towards acquiring PvP gear.

exactly. but, that was the purpous of crafted pvp sets, i would assume. i say that because i had no trouble gathering the S10 set within a week started out in a crafted pvp set., more or less it was easier to hold my own in a bg to accomplish objective. i may not have been killing everyone in there, but i was able to survive to achieve the goal of the bg.

getting into pvp in cataclysm isnt hard, you just shouldnt do it with pve gear.

i assumed that was the whole point of the pvp changes they kept making since wrath, because in BC pvp gear was nearly useless, if you raided, you could to a point perform better than people that earned their gear in pvp.

i like the idea of getting rid of resistance and spell pen needs, always felt like half my gem slots as a dk were going to pen.
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Ravinous
Echo Isles
Ravinous
4/30/2012
@Sunless: I don't know what you remember about Burning Crusade, but I know a lot people that were going into Kara, SSC, and TK with PvP gear out damaging and DPSing everyone. PvP gear was prefered for a while till they introduced T6 gear then it became more viable to use that T6 gear in PvP. In fact I seen many a character from priests to warriors in full T6 gear going into BG's, and completely rolling people in top level PvP gear.
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Rendow
Skywall
Rendow
4/30/2012
@Ravinous: I remember those days...when it first started when you could get S1 welfare gear with honor and BG marks. That, along with reducing the requirement from revered to honored virtually killed heroics as so many people in full pvp gear came in with no experience, making pugging go from pleasant to painful overnight. I raided Kara, SSC, even Hyjal on my pally in half pvp welfare epics because the gear was as good as tier if not better, especially given I stacked int and crit over haste and mp5 as a 'spike/holy light' healer.

These new changes really don't solve the fundamental problem though--to make pvp as useless as possible in pve and make pve gear as useless as possible in pvp. The only way I could really see to do that is to make the amount of stam higher on pvp gear along with lowering all other stats, primary and secondary. to make up for resil and the new 'pvp offense' while having the opposite on pve gear--lower stam yet higher primary stats and far higher secondary stats.

Pve gear would have higher agi/int/str and hit/expertise/haste/mast/crit but lower stam, no resil and no pvp offense. Pvp gear would have 80% of the agi/int/str and only half the hit/expertise/haste/mast/crit of pve gear, while having 20% more stam, resil and the new 'pvp offense'.
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Hëlock
Emerald Dream
Hëlock
4/29/2012
Honestly i am not sure why you think it is so hard to understand resistance. I personally would love to be able to stack resistance, however there are no gems and virtually no gear that allows it. I think that Spell Pen and Resistances are a good part of the game that makes it fun. Although it is a small part of the game i believe it has its place. Now i doubt you actually read these blizz but i have many other things i would like to either suggest or complain about. but i will not do that here. If you could somehow let me know that you do read these i would be a much happier customer by that alone.
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Kytiarå
Eitrigg
Kytiarå
4/29/2012
wow i like the new change u guys are planing for myst 2 completly different and valuable independant set of gear.for those who didnt get it pve good for pve and pvp good for pvp. this will actually be great and pve vs pvp = poor result same goes with pvp vs pve. it make sense and it should have been like that a long time ago because there 2 different aspect of the game.
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Styorx
Blackhand
Styorx
4/29/2012
@Kytiarå: I agree fully with you, i am tired of seeing people in pvp gear in trade chat "LFG 388 DS (insert class)" and yet they !@#$% that for some "reason" they are low dps, or gloat because they have the highest... TY Blizzard for finally fixing your mistake of making pvp vrs pve viable.
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Níghtlove
Moon Guard
Níghtlove
5/1/2012
@Kytiarå: I agree. You shouldn't have to be forced to raid to have better gear for PvP just like you shouldn't have to PvP to get better geared for PvE encounters. :-)
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Nerasgul
Velen
Nerasgul
4/18/2012
i agree with Dahammer on most parts, i mostly think for one that they do dislike how impossible it is to step into pvp, pretty much people go in, get the crap beat out of them and prey they get honor points through a victory to which they cannot contribute. Secondly I think that blizz has gotten mad at how un team oriented pvp has become, get one guy with full honor and one healer and as long as they are decent and are in a larger bg like arathi basin, they will roll through anyone, especially those teams with newer people. So to some it up, those hardcore pvpers will still be powerful, but they will make it easier to transition to pvp and become the pvper people love to see on their team, not even an allstar, just someone who wont get rolled 9 times out of 10.
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Níghtlove
Moon Guard
Níghtlove
5/1/2012
@Nerasgul: PvP isn't hard to get into, and bottom line, your going to die at some point. No player is indestructable. Those two players you mentioned, the ones you say are full honor and working as a team to go around rolling through everyone, it sounds like they earned it. They put in the time to have better gear and they are working together to trash disorganized players wondering around by themselves. How much easier does it have to be? If its too easy there is no sense of accomplishment. Someone who does PvP casually shouldn't have the same advantages of someone who spends most of thier time in PvP in my opinion. Just something to think about.
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Cheesegrater
Uther
Cheesegrater
4/16/2012
That is as you say a Lot of information, and I think I have a two of three cents on all of the various points here.

Spell resistance is gone? while I have no real issue with that, as it was something of a niche stat anyways. I do wonder how (if at all) it would affect abilities that affect spells, a la my cloak of shadows? Shall I assume that I'll simply remain immune to spells and spell damage, or will it in fact be affected somehow?

Hit and expertise I like.

Blocks don't really affect me as I'm always behind someone. :P

Umm can you give a few examples of when a crit might be bigger then x2 just to give an idea of what sorts of situations one might find them in? Like say the rogue ambush.

As to the new pvp mechanics, I understand that you're trying to make things more accessible for players who want to move from one to the other, and I support that idea. I'm failing to see how anything other then the 30% baseline resilience or "pvp defense", and the 'free' stats on pvp gear will do that. Maybe it's just me, but the pvp defense and pvp attack will work well enough in pvp, but if the level of the items are too low then it would make raiding and the like inaccessible at your current level, and if they're not low enough people will be asking themselves why they even stick with pve gear at all when all the stats are free on pvp gear anyways? It just seems to me like you're giving yourself a Very small margin of error, while creating a system that is potentially more complicated and in some aspects less accessible if anything starts to go off in a direction that's unanticipated. Still, maybe all those concerned were already addressed earlier on and I just haven't been bothered to read through it all :P.
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Gravehorn
Frostwolf
Gravehorn
4/30/2012
@Cheesegrater: "Cloak of Cheaters" as I like to call it... ;P

Few things I hate more than a good rogue in PvP. Fortunately many people roll one thinking it's the uber-class, so there are plenty of mediocre & bad ones out there, to get my revenge on... LOL
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Creepycrawln
Alterac Mountains
Creepycrawln
4/30/2012
@Gravehorn: ah yes, and Anti-Buff has the perfect CD time for virtual spamability. :-)
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Dahammer
Hellscream
Dahammer
4/14/2012
Just read a lot of the comments and here is my reaction:
Many people don't seem to fully grasp what Blizz is trying to do with the stat changes. These people seem to say that any change to the current system is part of the 2012 doomsday prediction and will cause the downfall of society.

They are making it so that some new guy trying to get into PvP
doesn't get smashed back to oblivion a thousand times a game. The article never said that the casual PvPer would be on par with the hardcore PvPer. They simply said it would be easier to step into it. Simply put, the n00b actually has some chance of beating a person who spends all their time on PvP. That doesn't mean that these two groups would be equal.

Also, the PvP defense stat starts off at 30% BASE. That means just like stamina or any other stat, it can be improved. So the new PvP stat doesn't equalize the entire system, it just makes it possible for a PvP newbie to have a shot at improving his gear so it isn't impossible to join in. This isn't going to nerf hardcore players, who not only will have superior gear but also a superior skill set, but make so that they might actually have to think while they fight some dude who is running his first battleground. The hardcore man will probably win 8-9 times out of 10. But this is a vast improvement over the current system where a newbie has a 5% chance of survival or less.

To sum it all up, this new system will change what older players are used to. That is ok. These people play a lot more than more casual players, so it also makes since that they will adjust faster to the new changes. And just like any new idea, you can expect patches to fix any glaring issues within a month of the release. So don't hate on Blizzard because they tried something new on the fourth expansion.
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Hatelife
Fenris
Hatelife
4/14/2012
@Nerasgul shut up you nerd
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Nerasgul
Velen
Nerasgul
4/13/2012
ironically the world record for subscriptions monthly is around 12 million which is what wow is at now so to say that the game is falling apart is a poor assessment, and secondly most the content they remove each xpac is what people complained about in these posts so i would guess that they do read em.
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Succora
Mannoroth
Succora
4/12/2012
PS: Ghostcrawler I don't know if you read these comments, but I realize you guys are about making money. If you guys could set-up some Classic WoW, or Burning Crusade servers with the previous updates from 3 years ago. I know for a fact that would be a great way to bring a few million people back to the game and also bring back more revenue for Blizzard. It would also give all those disgruntled players out there who are not into the new state that WoW is in, and give some of the Older players a reason to come back and keep playing one of their favorite MMORPG's. Cheers
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Styorx
Blackhand
Styorx
4/29/2012
@Succora: I do gotta say i agree partially, but remember the day you heard an XP coming out, you got a tad excited to see whats coming... the next thing is "okay, i grind AQ40 today, AQ10 tomorrow, then go back to.... wait i am in vanilla well FFS that kills my week, here comes the boredom" Unsubscribe. Its a two sided coin, good or bad. There's so much you can do until boredom overcomes you, that and blizzard is cheap on the servers lol
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Succora
Mannoroth
Succora
4/12/2012
ghostcrawler you have been slowly destroying everything about World of Warcraft that made this game great back in the old days of World of Warcraft. Why do you constantly keep removing features from the game? Why do you keep making this game easier and easier. Can this game be anymore easy as it is? Spell resistance hard to understand? are you joking? While your at it why don't you just remove all the class skills for each class and just give them fishing rods to hit each other with. I'm sure that will balance things out nice and good.
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Hadúr
Blackrock
Hadúr
4/10/2012
So horrible. you are making this game completely retard proof. Why not leave everything how it is and how is has been, rather then changing it every expansion? You are trying to be too much like SWTOR and that game is failing.
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Rendow
Skywall
Rendow
4/30/2012
@Hadúr: I preferred the giant talent trees of Wrath which allowed experimentation (and gave an easy glimpse at who knew nothing of their class), the need for multiple glyphs, the special gear that had a specific resistance through the roof based on the fight (lock tanking Leo in SSC, fire/shadow plate gear for tanks in Black Temple and Sunwell), the goal of getting uncrushable as a tank, and the standard 25 man raid.

I consider BC to be the 'good old days' of wow (minus the welfare pvp epics) from everything from the gear I mentioned above to attunement (at least until near the end), even things like getting better spellpower flasks and enchants as opposed to the 'one size fits all' you have today (Sunfire vs Soulfrost), the multiple pally buffs to address tank aggro (the current 500% being insane, in raids tank threat was never the issue until BoSalv was taken away, it was always dps never using their TR CDs), and things like Battle Shout and BoM, along with MOTW and BoK, imp's HP and priest's PwF all acting independently and stacking, thus making a need for all of those classes to be part of a raid, as opposed to 'we need X ranged and X melee, please whisp for spot'.
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Garamsythe
Twisting Nether
Garamsythe
6/10/2012
@Hadúr:

You think WoW is trying to be like SWTOR, when in actuality SWTOR was trying to be like WoW, right????? On top of the multifarious reasons SWTOR fails it has a terrible engine, and horribly linear.
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Thèmis
Gilneas
Thèmis
4/5/2012
I would also love to see some kind of ilvl restriction for pvp like you guys have for pve. So this way a little guy with not much resil goes and fights other players with not much resil or power or defence as you guys are making it. This way it gives pvp a more balanced system. So someone with lets say 6k resil cant 1 shot a little guy with only 1 or 2k resil.
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Shopaholic
Blade's Edge
Shopaholic
5/1/2012
This makes SO much sense, it'll never happen. :( I totally agree it's a good idea though.
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Definitely know how the switch to PvE form PvP feels i tried doing some Dragon soul with my rogue. Ironically the rogue gear for PvP gave me highest dps out of most groups but you don't ever tank in PvP gear its the first thing they check for before they kick you
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Smokinaces
Moon Guard
Smokinaces
4/4/2012
I like the fact you are trying to do something about the pvp cant wait to see how it all works out.sounds like a big step forward to me.
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Ruflok
Stormreaver
Ruflok
4/4/2012
I like that you guys are actually trying to work out the issues with PvP and PvE balancing. I think the PvP Power and Defense stats are a big step in the right direction. My main concern is that the biggest problem isn't people using a bunch of PvE gear to overpower other PvP players. It's just using a couple items: like legendary weapons and OP PvE trinkets. So are these stat changes going to make it where if your missing even one piece with PvP stats on it you will be significantly underpowered? Or are people just going to again be willing to give up some PvP stats for a legendary weapon or trinket that has a super overpowered proc?