Dev Watercooler: Mists of Pandaria PvP

Dev Watercooler: Mists of Pandaria PvP

Now that Mists of Pandaria has been out a few weeks, we wanted to let you all know what we consider working well in PvP, what we want to improve, and what’s coming down the pike. I’m going to split this up into three parts: a discussion of Matchmaking Rating (MMR), class balance concerns, and a sneak peek at some of our PvP plans.

MMR

As I’m sure you’re aware, the intent behind MMR is to match players by skill. This is accomplished by comparing an assigned number (MMR) that adjusts based on the relative MMR of the opponents you win or lose to. Matching players by their effectiveness or performance helps make sure that less experienced players aren’t always getting stomped by expert players, and that competitors at all levels are earning their victories by battling players of roughly equivalent ability. MMR isn’t intended to be a “PvP score”—its primary function is in matchmaking. We’ve seen a lot of players asking for an MMR reset, and to be fair, we had originally planned on doing one (and even announced it beforehand). Some of you may be concerned that high-ranking players won’t have a reason to play and will be able to just sit on their high ratings, perhaps even earning Gladiator without having to fight opponents. While we think there’s some legitimacy to the concern, we don’t think resetting MMR is the right way to address it.

Because MMR is a measure of your performance as a player, we don’t think it makes a lot of sense to reset MMR at the end of a season or expansion. It’s unlikely your skill atrophied significantly more than that of your competition between seasons, so there isn’t a lot of benefit in measuring it again. If we did reset MMR then what you’d likely see is a handful of mismatched games, where experienced players rock weaker players until MMR is calibrated again. That’s a lot of pain for relatively little gain since the MMRs will likely settle back into the same places anyway. It is important to remember that the Conquest point cap, Elite rewards and Gladiator titles are all tied to Team Rating and not MMR. Your Team Rating increases and decreases as you win and lose, and your Team Rating is really the most important number when it comes to Arena PvP.

However, we took a hard look at the way we measure Team Rating, and came to the conclusion that our formula doesn’t do a good enough job of measuring the potential for improvement over the course of a season. While your skill may not necessarily improve over the course of a season, your gear definitely does, and that should have an effect on the relative power of your team. We’re currently working on a change to allow Team Ratings to grow faster over time, as long as you keep playing. We don’t have any specifics to share yet, but this correction will have the added benefit that players who continue playing will be capable of reaching higher Team Ratings, and therefore potential access to rewards, than someone who stops playing and sits on their rating.

As a potential example let’s say the Fatty Goat Steaks have a Team Rating of 2700 and the Mushan Tongues have a Team Rating of 2500. The Fatty Goat Steaks decide their Team Rating is high enough that they’re going to sit out the rest of the season. The Mushan Tongues keep playing each week, their gear gradually improves, and they continue to win many of their matches. Because of the new inflation component, their Team Rating rises, let’s say, 300 additional points to 2800. They are now higher ranked than the Fatty Goat Steaks. If the Fatty Goat Steaks decide to jump back into Arena matches, they can benefit from the inflation as well, but they’re going to have to play and win to catch up. It’s not going to be a system where you have to play every day just to defend your rating, but certainly one where you can’t sit at the top doing nothing and collect your rewards at the end. We’ll have more details on exactly how this system will work as we get closer to its implementation.

We believe this adjustment to the Team Rating formula will have a similar benefit to the “rating decay” that some of you have been asking for, but will feel more positive – rather than feeling like you must keep running just to stay in place (i.e. keep your current score), players that continue participating will be rewarded with higher Team Ratings. As a season wears on, this should also make upper brackets more active as well.

To support this change we’re going to expand the 5.1 feature of improving the item level of your raid armor and weapons using Valor to now include Justice, Honor, and Conquest points as well. A Gladiator who has purchased a full set of Conquest gear will now have a compelling motivation to keep playing in patch 5.1, since they’ll be able to improve that set by spending Conquest points.

Class Balance Concerns

We have 34 class specializations in the game now, and the intention here isn’t to go through every one to discuss their strengths and weaknesses. Instead, I’m going to address the ones that players seem to be most concerned about. That’s inherently a subjective call on my part, so I apologize if you think we missed something. Also, simply because something isn’t mentioned here doesn’t mean it’s being ignored. You can see some of the specific changes we are trying out in the 5.1 patch notes.

Beastmastery Hunters – We agree that stacking too many cooldowns to blow someone up is not interesting, skillful, or fair. (I also want to be clear that with all of these issues, we’re not blaming players for using the tools that we gave them; we’re blaming ourselves.)  We’re taking a hard look at the various Hunter cooldowns with the intention of reducing their burst. Hunters are receiving a buff in that they will no longer need to swap between Aspect of the Hawk and Aspect of the Fox. We also hope these changes help result in higher representation of Survival and Marksman Hunters.

Update: We have just discovered a bug in which the debuff that makes Stampede pets weaker than normal pets was not being applied in Arenas. This helps explain why hunters could cause so much damage in Arenas but not in (say) the outdoor world or a dungeon environment.

Warriors – We don’t think Warrior burst is out of control the way Hunter burst is. It’s possible that the combination of Warrior control and burst are too hard to counter, though. The changes we’re looking at are reducing both burst and control. The Glyph of Gag Order in particular is just too powerful for PvP. We think that if you manage to keep a Warrior from you, you should be allowed to get off a cast (and if you’re a Warrior who just can’t stand the thought of that, you can still spec into Storm Bolt.) Shockwave, Avatar, and Recklessness are also mentioned a lot, and we’re looking at them as well.

Rogues – We think that Rogue damage in PvP is appropriate—the damage that some other classes are dealing is too high, and we want to adjust those cases before we do any tinkering elsewhere. We still like the Rogue suite of tools and abilities, but we feel like some of these mechanics might have been eclipsed by newer, shinier versions.  We are looking at improving Rogue mobility and control in conservative ways.

Mages – We are going to tone down Mage burst and control. We had hoped moving more of their control to talents would force some exclusivity in crowd control options, but it wasn’t sufficient.  We increased the cost of Spellsteal significantly to promote its use strategically instead of stealing everything available. We’ve also been trying out changes to Deep Freeze, Frost Bomb, and Pyroblast to reduce burst and control.

Monks – We know some players are concerned about Windwalker viability in Arenas. The Monk class has a high skill cap and they come with a learning curve. The Windwalker PvP bonuses are quite powerful and players aren’t really taking advantage of them yet. We absolutely want the newest class to be popular, but we’re also trying to be conservative and not recreate the situation where the Death Knight dominated PvP and PvE when it first launched. We do want to give the Monk a few more weeks and see where it stands, but we are keeping a close eye on how things develop.

Healing – We agree that off-spec healers are too competitive with dedicated healers. Specs such as Shadow, Elemental, and Balance are supposed to be able to provide some healing—that’s one of their perks—but they shouldn’t be able to substitute for a dedicated healer. The change we are going to try here is to have PvP Power benefit either your damage or healing depending on spec. We are concerned that healing may be too high even for dedicated healers, especially for Restoration Shaman and Holy Paladins, who are incredibly strong in PvP at the moment. After we tone down some of the burst damage coming from Hunters, Warriors, and Mages, we may try the PvP healing debuff at 30% instead of the current 15%, but that won’t happen until after we’ve resolved the damage issues.

Crowd Control – At the moment, we’re satisfied with the state of crowd control. We tried to not add new stackable forms of crowd control to any given spec, but because players have so many crowd control options (say, choosing a stun vs. a snare via talents) the overall number of crowd control spells that a PvP player needs to learn has grown. The pool just became deeper. We know that some of you have concerns, and we’ll keep an eye on it.

Burst – Aside from Hunters, and possibly Warriors and Mages, we don’t think burst is out of control. Other specs that get mentioned by players are Destruction Warlocks, Frost Death Knights, and Shadow Priests. Those are definitely on our radar, but we don’t have any changes to announce at the moment.

PvP Sneak Peek

We have a lot of irons in the fire on the development team, and we’re usually reluctant to discuss ideas that aren’t fully implemented in the game yet. Despite all of our caveats, ideas that we delay or cancel tend to get turned into “broken promises.” With that in mind, please understand that you may not see some of these ideas in the next patch, or the patch after that, or any time soon. These are just ideas we’re bouncing around:

Loss of Control UI – This is a feature we’ve wanted to build for a long time, and it’s finally close. If you’re feared, you probably realize you’re feared because your character runs around crazy with a big chattering skull over your head. However, if you’re stunned or silenced or disarmed, you don’t often realize it immediately and push your buttons which don’t do anything and as a result the game feels unresponsive. The loss of control UI makes sure you know when something prevents you from using your abilities. It has benefits for solo or instance play as well, but it’s largely a PvP-driven feature.

Rated Battleground Participation Rewards – If you’ve PvPed for any length of time, you’ve been in one of those matches where the final score is so close that victory was a breath away. When we do our jobs right and give you one of those really close matches, it’s sad to not get any reward for participating, so we want to give out some kind of small reward. The rewards will be based on the final score to discourage exploitation.

Battleground and Arena Maps in Dungeon Journal – While veteran PvP players already know all of the Arena and Battleground maps, we think Dungeon Journal is a good way to introduce the basic objectives and map overlay so newer competitors don’t have to learn to swim while drowning.

Improved Scoreboard – It might seem silly to some, but we think small touches matter. Right now, the entire way we end a Battleground hasn’t changed much: it feels a little archaic and isn’t very exciting. We want to have an actual “You win!” toast, followed by a more exciting scoreboard.

Smoother Battleground Brackets – We have technology now to scale down player items for Challenge Modes, and you might be aware that we scaled up player items during our beta raid testing. We’d like to use the same mechanic to scale up players within the lower level PvP brackets. For example, in the level 15 to 19 bracket, we could make all characters behave as if they were level 19 for purposes of the Battleground. If this idea works well, we could potentially condense lower level brackets and maybe reduce queue times.

Matchmaking – Our Battleground matchmaking system hasn’t changed much since it debuted and doesn’t yet benefit from many of the advances we developed for Dungeon Finder and Raid Finder. The original Battleground queuing system was designed for speed because it only had a single realm of candidates. By incorporating more of the new tech we’ve since developed, we can help ensure that there are a certain number of healers per team or at least a good class distribution.

Honor and Conquest Item Upgrades – We’ve talked about how we’re going to allow players to upgrade raid items with Valor. As mentioned above, we are going to let PvP players increase the item level of their Honor or Conquest gear by spending Honor or Conquest, respectively.

Small Groups joining Rated Battlegrounds – We still don’t want to let solo players queue for Rated Battlegrounds because it would undermine the intent of coordinated group PvP, and then they really just become normal Battlegrounds that reward better gear. However, we’ve heard your concerns that getting even 10 players together to queue for a Rated Battleground can be challenging. Our idea is to let a group of 5 players queue together, which we would then match with another group of 5 players. We think this can still provide a relatively balanced and viable team. One of the crazier ideas on the table would be to convert some of our smaller Battlegrounds, such as Gilneas, to have a 5v5 option.

Tol Barad and Wintergrasp – We are discussing making level 90 versions of these PvP zones that players could queue for to earn bonus honor.

As I said, this is a brain dump of a lot of ideas that a lot of different developers are working on. This is not a list of patch notes and not all of these may come to pass. Please let us know what you think, if we’re on the right track, or if you think we missed a big PvP issue. PvP balance is always going to be really subjective, and while balance is desirable, continual buffs and nerfs that don’t actually solve problems have the potential to be worse than the imbalances they’re trying to fix.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He has NEVER impersonated a female in the game in order to get loot.

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Comments (2,051)

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Ghostz
Madoran
Ghostz
11/6/2012
ikw this is off topic but i need to ask, when the servers are "under maintenance" it says that it would be back around 11:00 am, i live in FL and is 1:05 PM and they still down, can some one explain me that? pls
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Zephor
Scarlet Crusade
Zephor
11/6/2012
@Ghostz: they almost never come up when bliz says they will. They usualy take longer. sometimes they don't though. Just keep an eye on realm status.
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Deathbane
Shattered Halls
Deathbane
11/6/2012
@Ghostz: Hey Ghostz,
It's likely they'll be up at 2:00PM where you live, as long as maintenance doesn't get extended. =)
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Liun
Korialstrasz
Liun
11/6/2012
@Deathbane: they disabled comments on "Battle.net World Championship" ;p
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Hypothermie
Illidan
Hypothermie
11/6/2012
@Ghostz: its 11am PST

if you live in florida your not in the same time zone
its gonna be at 2pm
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Healyameen
Lightning's Blade
Healyameen
11/6/2012
i am on a server that is 10 to 1 hord is with the advent of 50 daily a day i get kill 5 times a day and i get that it is a pvp server. i would like to see pvp power and res only aply in bg but that is asking to much. cry cry!!
so if there would be a place that needs to be fixed it would be halfhill. the other day i was picking up the dailys under all the hord on there bigest fly mounts and two warlock lit me up and then jump in to there farm. i am not just going to wine about i am going to give you a fix. if you are in combat you do not faz in to your farm there you go a fix plz think about it.
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Ðöë
Doomhammer
Ðöë
11/6/2012
More carrots to chase! woot!
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Geist
Khadgar
Geist
11/6/2012
<3!
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Arüwen
Nemesis
Arüwen
11/6/2012
Instead of trying to recycle what we already had; Why don't you guys try to make something NEW ?

NEW battlegrounds

PVP option to Brawlers Guild.

A world PVP event (like a big war between hord and alliance). This game has alot of stupid events, why not make a PVP one ?

War between guilds (*-*).

Balance the game for 1vs1 (lol).
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Serouserune
Blackwing Lair
Serouserune
11/6/2012
@Arüwen: There are 2 new BGs and PvP option for Brawlers Guild wouldn't be different from duels.
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Darwin
Emerald Dream
Darwin
11/6/2012
@Arüwen: Why does Blizzard have to make a world pvp event? Just make one with friends, anytime. They did plenty when they made people leave the cities and actually interact with the world.

My server frequently has huge groups attacking the pvp gear vendors. Gank some people at a quest hub and it turns into war. Have your guild talk with one of the opposite faction, and have a Kill On Sight policy against their members.

Instead of waiting for Blizzard to do something, get out there and do it for yourself!
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Manddeath
Norgannon
Manddeath
11/6/2012
also how can mages blink outta my asphyxiate if its suposed to silence them?
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Serouserune
Blackwing Lair
Serouserune
11/6/2012
@Manddeath: It only silences if the target is immune to stuns.
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Bultek
Drak'thul
Bultek
11/6/2012
@Manddeath: Read the tooltip. It only serves as a silence if the target is immune to stuns.
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Peacesells
Dawnbringer
Peacesells
11/6/2012
the people who complain about a class being too good is the people who just die and complain to blizz that they killed me with one shot.... oh well i read the class thing up there i didn't see warlock 200k chaos bolt isnt cheap i guess. And i guess rogue pvp damage is fair even tho if duel one they kill me in 5 seconds with a full set of dread. Now lets talk about warriors, he said oh if you keep them off you you can kill them. This guy is a fkn genius! the only problem he thought is was a good idea to give there charge a 1 second cd. and there leap of !@#$ a 5 second cd. and they also kill me fast. after all that shamans... they are just bad. ask any shaman player they have not been good in really expansion, stop making classes worse and make some classes just a little better. does ghost crawler even play this game at all? obviously not, he also does not read Not ANYTHING people say or he would have fixed it. i just know that at least 60 people quit this game because he cant make pvp/pve any good. oh 60 people that's it, well that was just my guild im sure other people from other guild and tons from other relm and quit because this game is just not fun at all.
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Necrorogue
Malorne
Necrorogue
11/6/2012
@Peacesells: Why do you whine and complain about people whining and complaining? They cannot fix everything and they know that people will whine about getting killed by players. Just because they are trying to address the major, most reoccurring issues doesn't mean they aren't taking the other concerns into play as well. Furthermore if you suck at a class, learn how to play the class and stop sucking at it, or learn how to play other classes and figure out wtf kills you on them and then kill other players that way. Use your brain and quit crying. Its PvP you are getting trounced by skill, luck, and possibly gear its not just dependent on how much dps you can do or aggro you can hold, and doing mechanics right.
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Manddeath
Norgannon
Manddeath
11/6/2012
but i do like the way the mmr setup sounds
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Manddeath
Norgannon
Manddeath
11/6/2012
i still think its bs that mages can use mirror immage in arenas hunters can use stampede in arenas but i cant use my army of the dead in arenas
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Reddrum
Silver Hand
Reddrum
11/6/2012
...
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Wirb
Galakrond
Wirb
11/6/2012
This sounds awesome, good job Blizzard- Activision.
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Lilpissant
Blackhand
Lilpissant
11/6/2012
If you make Wintergrasp a lvl 90 battleground, I will buy a one year subscription. Best BG ever.
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Protitution
Stormreaver
Protitution
11/6/2012
@Lilpissant: im assuming they will later on in the xpac. TB and wintersgrasp werent there at the intro either they came later. but yea wintergrasp was pretty legit. TB didnt have enough to do with siege imo. wintergrasp was funner =D
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Spikekille
Sargeras
Spikekille
11/6/2012
Instead of making WG, and TB level 90 versions. Encourage Fighitng in the vale. Instead of making the guards stronger, which I do not understand why you did, make them weaker. Give us more bonuses for fighitng in the Vale, such as provide us a similiar amount of honor earned from TB. But never- do not create a timed WPvP zone. I beleive this in a sense ruins PVP excluding it to one area. Sure it is a great Idea, and it seems fun, the only problem would be everyone would fight in those areas. Creating barley anyone to have the desire to fight in Capital Cities, or anywhere else in the World for that matter.

Take Temple of Kotmogu, it looks like a truely magnifacent palace... Sadly this place does not exist anywhere in the game, outside the BG. Take Temple of Kotmogu, the same exact design, and place it in the middle of the Vale, between the horde and Alliance cities. Now if this were to happen a crucial part would be to would be Allow all parts of the temple that are inaccesible in the BG, acceisble in theouter BG world, this would create intsense awesome combat, within an anceint temple. I mean how awesome is that? Allow the four death balls to be taken- Throughout the E.n.t.i.r.e. Vale. Make it so the team that has held the most deathballs for the longest amount of time gets a special reward. Such as an extra set of dailies, or bonues EXP and REP for every charchter on Pandaria/ and the world. Perhaps even change the whole experiance of the Two Cities within the Vale. If one side holds All FOUR Balls, and beats the highest record with all four, then they get to capture one of the two cities of their choice, for a week period. Now I know I am overstrecthing this, but keep in mind catching all four balls, and beating the record hold, is a tough, if not impossible job to do. Now knowing the problem with many uneven horde/alliance ratio's their would be a limit of One city cap per side. Don't think of it as it's going to be impossible to get into a city, because their are more alliance on this server, or vice versa. Think of it as, every week you will have to fight, to gain your territory, to defend your city. This will cause huge amounts of PVP, worrying about low levels being ganked, for the most part, if you are not 87+ you cannot even enter the Vale. It really isn't a hard mechanic to put in the game, and I would love to see it in place on 5.1.

My account's subscription has expired, as I am using a friends account to post this

-Fatknight@Sargears
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Lilpissant
Blackhand
Lilpissant
11/6/2012
@Spikekille: No. Bring dead battlegrounds back to life. It's called expanding existing content.
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Spikekille
Sargeras
Spikekille
11/6/2012
@Lilpissant: No pvp. If that happens.
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Ñeútròn
Anvilmar
Ñeútròn
11/6/2012
Hey I also think Resto Druids need a slight change, it seems that no matter what I do they can escape and heal up to full health in arena's, with there plethora of escapes, such as an instant roots, the ability to banish, a fear, and the ability to change from cat, to travel, back to cat and outrun me with no loss of speed. Also a mention of there tree form which can outheal my burst dps and heal them too full in about a second seems a bit overpowered at the moment.
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Krazemonk
Garrosh
Krazemonk
11/6/2012
@Ñeútròn: druids cannot fear. the treeform lasts 30 seconds and more than doubles their armor, they innervate themselves so they get 20% of base mana back over 10 seconds. STEP 1: leave him the heck alone when he pops tree form. it IS a 3 minute CD. are you saying 2 and a half minutes is too long to have to kill a druid?? they have several HoTs that just make your burst seem pointless. swiftmend is an instant cast that heals for a good amount up front and while in that circle are healed for 1.75 times that amount over 8 seconds. that druid trolled you good i bet.
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Olivà
Gilneas
Olivà
11/6/2012
@Krazemonk: NO TREE form is forever now..
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Goignaar
Vashj
Goignaar
11/6/2012
@Olivà: The tree form youre talking about does nothing at all for healing it is just a cosmetic glyph nothing more
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Sodah
Perenolde
Sodah
11/6/2012
@Ñeútròn: I have not found resto druids to be too OP considering any melee class can shred right through us in a matter of seconds....compared to Hpals and Resto shamans we are not OP in the slightest...CD's are meant to push you through heavy damage...a 3 min CD on Incarnation is more than fair I think....just be thankful you didn't fight a holy pally
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Ñeútròn
Anvilmar
Ñeútròn
11/6/2012
@Krazemonk: not hard when I have a mini burst that has a 3 minute cd, and a bigger one with a 5 minute cool down that you can just heal yourself in tree form through, and with my amazing 2 stuns both 1 and 2 minute cd's and my amazing racial silence for three seconds it is not very hard to heal through it.
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Phindo
Agamaggan
Phindo
11/6/2012
ok now that u found the issue with bms remove the nerf from BW. its dumb and alost ur happy with cc? seriously? when will u guys nerf the 3 most op ccs in the game fear,sheep,cyclone? the control mages locks priest and druids have in arenas is retarded, and u put all 3 on same comp, and u have the only viable comp over 2100 right now.

i also rember a time when u sayed a instant cast cc like DKs used to have was to OP for a melee. yet u never nerfed war fear bomb, only made it the same CD as the original dk. that eventualy got nerfed. and u give every ret pally 1. GC its time u let some1 else handle the pvp you don't know what u want anymore.
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Krazemonk
Garrosh
Krazemonk
11/6/2012
@Phindo: "the only viable comp" dude, i know a firemage/rdruid/warrior comp on my realm above 2100, and theres some others without mages locks or priests. yeah and the cyclone CAN be trinketed out of. its a cast spell that can be interrupted. BW deserves a BIG nerf.
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Darwin
Emerald Dream
Darwin
11/6/2012
@Phindo: The lack of actual words and structure in your post -- it burns my eyes!
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Mafic
Emerald Dream
Mafic
11/6/2012
Please look at Taste for Blood because Warrior burst is way too high because of this.
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5 man rbgs sound great - it needs to be done with the current cap system requiring a rbg win per week to cap. Buffing lower level players in brackets is also a good idea.
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Megacrit
Zul'jin
Megacrit
11/6/2012
I think in the attemp to balance out the classes, there is way too much CC now, so much so that in BGs, specially in areas where large groups gather, there is so much CC, that any players get taken out of the fight by CC alone.
it is so bad that i now avoid BGs where this can happen on a regular basis.
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Gabrielfury
Hakkar
Gabrielfury
11/6/2012
Tol Barad and Wintergrasp as lvl 90 pvp zones would be sweet! Very nice idea.
Now for pve lets bring raid favorites up to lvl 90 also like Karazhan!
@ Urprey dude, "Players shouldn't be the perfect mix of two or three areas. "
Well your pet can tank, dps?, cc?....um yeah. Gaining 2% of your health every 2sec!?!? Dude even wolverine doesn't heal that fast! Seriously though i getcha. I think the balance of the 3 are fine. It's not always the situation in pvp but blizz just needs to weigh out the 1vs 1 aspect of it. When class has the cc, burst, etc that just makes it too easy for it to take another class down. Some classes just have an insane advantage over other classes. I mean there's almost no contest! But i think blizz is off to a good start, starting with the burst damage of some of these classes. At the same time. Most people still are not playing out there new character mechanics out to there fullest potentiel and versitility. I feel blizz has put out an amazing xpansion that so far i can tell people really like and i haven't heard much complaining. Speaking for myself i love it. You're always gonna be able to find things to complain about making it impossible to please everyone. Do you really want every class to do the exact same amount of damage? Exact same cc abilities? I swear that's the only way to satisfy some of you out there lol.
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Goignaar
Vashj
Goignaar
11/6/2012
@Gabrielfury: Karazhan plz!!!!! Favorite instance of all time
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OH an other thing i spend 5 combo points and energy to stun a mage and he can just blink out, 5 combo points Eviscerate for Combat hit nothing ! other classes hits 60k+ with instants, We need a buff to reveiling strike or a buff to Eviscerate for combat