H-Norushen 25 needs a HP Nerf/Zerk Reduction

100 Undead Mage
13095
Changing it seems silly, but I don't really care one way or another. It will still be an easy encounter. The first half of the instance seems pretty undertuned as a whole.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
11780
We are planning on making a few changes to Heroic Norushen for next week’s reset. We’re seeing a lot of guilds ignoring many of the fight’s mechanics, and want to ensure that that is not the ideal strategy for defeating the encounter. We’ll be adjusting things in a way that shouldn’t significantly increase the overall difficulty of the encounter, but does require that Heroic raiders engage with its core mechanics.

These changes will be applied via hotfix along with the weekly raid resets for each region, and more information will be available in the official hotfix blog once they have been finalized.


So after guilds get the kill you are going to make it harder for new guilds getting to the fight to kill it?

Leave it alone.

Why punish new guilds getting to heroics late because the guilds who got to it first figured out a way to bypass parts of the fight and make it easier to kill.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8510
When did heroic stop needing to require good gear, superior coordination, and top-notch output?

The idea that a heroic boss seems too difficult on the first week of the tier when numerous guilds have cleared it is ludicrous. If it was normal mode, or if this was week 5 and only a handful had passed it, it might be a different story.

Applying hotfix nerfs in the first week result in situations like Primordius. Applying them in week 4 doesn't matter.
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90 Draenei Hunter
9320
Unless you are changing the fight so that sending DPS down does not spawn adds up top, you're going to create a disaster for 25-mans. The entire reason the fight was a mess on PTR, and we told you repeatedly during testing that it would require a zerg strat, is that purifying a player on 25 generates more corruption for the raid than is removed from that single player.


Of course I told you that 2 months ago, so I fear I'm wasting my breath.
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Game Designer
I entirely understand the frustration felt by guilds that have already defeated Heroic Norushen this week, or invested significant time attempting his current incarnation. It's never particularly enjoyable to have to relearn a fight you've already defeated and from which you've already received loot and an achievement. Changing an encounter meaningfully once it's in players' hands is not an action we take lightly. I'd like to offer a few general points of clarification:

First, we did read and closely consider all feedback received as a result of Norushen PTR testing. We made a number of adjustments to the encounter as a result of both player feedback and our own observations over the course of testing. Notably, we removed the Draw mechanic that was present for most of the PTR testing cycle, since it caused players to have to throttle their damage as their gear and execution improved. That mechanic was originally added to completely shut down any chance of a brute-force approach, but we believed that the damage penalty from the initial Corruption would be sufficient to require players to use Look Within to purify themselves in order to meet the berserk timer. Clearly we were mistaken, and I'd like to personally apologize for that.

Second, we are not looking to meaningfully increase the difficulty of the encounter. It should, on balance, be a small to moderate step up in difficulty from Heroic Fallen Protectors, and should be easier than Sha of Pride. While we're still iterating on the exact changes, they will likely entail something along the lines of entirely removing the additional pulsed Corruption received from Burst of Anger and Residual Corruption, increasing players' starting Corruption to 75 as is the case on Normal, and adjusting the health of the Amalgam accordingly. We don't expect that most guilds that defeat the encounter this week will experience any notable struggles with the revised version.

Third, in keeping with the general philosophies laid out in the Encounter Tuning Dev Watercooler, a major factor when it comes to deciding whether to make changes to address an unintended strategy is whether the approach actually involves interesting gameplay. Yes, a really tight Patchwerk-style DPS check absolutely can be fun even without any other mechanics involved, and many players had nailbiting kills and wipes on the encounter this week. But in a few more weeks, with a bit more gear, that fun would largely be gone. And for the healers that most raid groups benched in order to add damage-dealers to meet the DPS check, it likely was never there to begin with. Ultimately, this is a change made for the sake of the thousands of guilds that have yet to attempt the encounter, but will in the future. To those who are experiencing the disruption of having the boss change mid-progress, I again apologize. There are many parallels to our handling of Heroic Primordius (and, yes, those parallels do begin with us screwing up the tuning in the first place).

Finally, I've seen a few references in this thread, and elsewhere, to Thok. The change made to Thok last week was entirely a bugfix. Based on our final days of Raid Finder testing on PTR, we decided to completely disable the Acceleration mechanic that increases Thok's energy generation in Raid Finder, since he changes phases based on health % thresholds in that mode. That change inadvertently removed the mechanic from all difficulties, and the 20-hour time period for which the bug was active represents the time it took us to track down the cause, implement a fix, and test that fix before applying it to the live environment. Thok's current energy regen rate is identical to the values seen for the better part of PTR testing. Had we changed nothing, Thok would have been the easiest encounter in the zone rather than one of the more challenging ones, and we are always going to fix bugs that completely trivialize raid encounters. That was a bug that we fixed ASAP. The upcoming Norushen adjustments, however, are design changes that we're going to roll out along with raid resets next week so that they affect everyone equally.
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10 Draenei Paladin
30
Thanks for the post Watcher, good insight.

I'm actually am glad you guys are changing the fight instead of keeping it's current iteration - fights like Amber Shaper/Council of Elders/Ra-den where you can skip entire mechanics in the !First week! has just never sat well with me.

On a side note, the difficulty curve in this tier is one of the best yet that I've seen (5/14 H), and looking at the top guilds progress, it seems that the trend continues deep in. I really hope you don't overnerf any of the fights, looking forward to doing some of the harder ones.
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100 Gnome Mage
20090
Thanks for the insight.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
And once again, they 180 their policy.

Heroic Ra-den stayed "completely unintended" for an entire tier.
Heroic Lei shen was changed mid week in the middle of a tier (Wednesday to Thursday, Week like, 15ish)
Normal Thok changes mid-week
Heroic Norushen in a week

All 3 of the "blue" posts that addressed changes were "broken" in a row, it's hilarious actually.

I do offer you this advice though, keep tabs on how many guilds skip the new Norushen that killed it this week for the "X/14h" Progression game, where spending extra hours redoing a dead boss isn't going to be worth the gain of gear until they come back and outgear it, since the "intended" strategy still won't be done.
Edited by Azane on 9/21/2013 12:00 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
11825
While we're on the subject, is spreading the Dark Shaman so you don't have to worry about the other's abilities a strat that Blizzard is OK with, or will that probably be getting fixed as well?
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100 Gnome Monk
17295
While we're on the subject, is spreading the Dark Shaman so you don't have to worry about the other's abilities a strat that Blizzard is OK with, or will that probably be getting fixed as well?


That would fall under "interesting gameplay" within an alternative strat, I'd think. You have to kite oozes, split your raid and so on. It's not just a mindless zerg like day one Norushen.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
While we're on the subject, is spreading the Dark Shaman so you don't have to worry about the other's abilities a strat that Blizzard is OK with, or will that probably be getting fixed as well?


You still handle mechanics.

Norushen was almost literally Patchwerk.
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90 Worgen Druid
11825
09/21/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Gondlem
While we're on the subject, is spreading the Dark Shaman so you don't have to worry about the other's abilities a strat that Blizzard is OK with, or will that probably be getting fixed as well?


That would fall under "interesting gameplay" within an alternative strat, I'd think. You have to kite oozes, split your raid and so on. It's not just a mindless zerg like day one Norushen.


Yeah, that's what I thought too because it's more involved and you're giving up some benefits for better survivability. And I'm guessing Blizzard knew about it through all the testing phases and just added the tank debuff instead of a separation anxiety mechanic, so it seems like to me that Blizzard is OK with splitting them... just not 100% sure.

I'm betting Norushen is different because I think they removed Draw and increased the HP post-heroic testing phase.
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90 Goblin Warrior
18845

While we're still iterating on the exact changes, they will likely entail something along the lines of entirely removing the additional pulsed Corruption received from Burst of Anger and Residual Corruption, increasing players' starting Corruption to 75 as is the case on Normal, and adjusting the health of the Amalgam accordingly


I'm really disappointed if it goes live like that. I thought the mechanic changes on heroic were very intuitive to making dps go down 2 (and sometimes 3) times in the fight, and managing the corruption breakpoints.

In short, I would have rather seen a buff to the DPS version of Purified, and the boss's hp increased to compensate.

Even though my guild was one that decided to 2-heal 25 man (as per the video on wowprogress), we only decided to even try it because of a failure on our VOIP server while it rebooted itself. Even then, I still would have preferred to do the fight "the right way" and would rather see the simple change listed above rather than making it "normal mode with more numbers"
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
I'm betting Norushen is different because I think they removed Draw and increased the HP post-heroic testing phase.


Ya, it's the issue when they only had 25m tests for ~20 minutes a piece and changed it after testing without having another test phase.

And there was still feedback ignored, and now they have to change live bosses instead of PTR bosses because they don't take feedback serious
Edited by Azane on 9/21/2013 1:02 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
16375
Watcher, I really don't know what your intention with these changes would accomplish. Look at the fight in the manor that you describe it:

    -The raid starts at 75 Corruption per player.
    - Player aDPS and aTank go down
    - Essence of Corruption is absorbed by bDPS and bDPS and aHealer go down
    - Essence of Corruption is absorbed by cDPS and cDPS and bTank go down
    - Essence of Corruption is absorbed by dDPS and dDPS and bHealer go down
    - Essence of Corruption is absorbed by aTank and eDPS and fDPS go down
    - Essence of Corruption is absorbed by aTank and aHealer -- both go down
    - Draw at 50% - bHealer absorbs
    - Draw at 40% - bHealer absorbs
    - Draw at 30% - aHealer absorbs
    - Draw at 20% - bTank absorbs
    - Draw at 10% - aTank absorbs
    - Death


The fight goes from a strict DPS check to a prayer check that you all do not overtune the boss's health on the first day. How can we be assured that you won't overshoot the mark? For guilds like mine who raid only three days per week, the first of which on the day of the reset, if you miss the mark then you have effectively killed us on two nights of progression. We would have to decide -- wait out the reset and hope you fix it, or push forward and let progression fall to the wayside.

I know that you are not happy with the way that this boss has turned out, but there are numerous videos of this boss being killed using both the zerg method and the appropriate one, as well. You may think that players in the future will have problems with this boss, but then they can resort to finding videos of how to do it properly.
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100 Pandaren Rogue
16490
Isnt changing the fight the way Watcher is proposing basicaly making it identical to normal but with a 1:50 minute duration on the purified buf ? Also Im guessing he means theyre gona reduce boss health cause if everyone is gona start at 75 corruption everyone is gona be doing less damage than they are now.
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90 Draenei Hunter
9320
@Lore
@Watcher

You realize you've done two iterations of the fight and *both* have had major issues. Isn't it time as designers to say "this mechanic does not work as intended" and walk away? This version of the fight will at least be trivialized by gear.

The mechanic is bad. Corruption, where an individual benefits by punishing the raid (they get less corruption, the raid gets more) is bad design, it's exactly the kind of thing you did on DA that made Dark Animus miserable on farm as we gained more gear, and had to literally sit on our hands in order to keep the adds under control.
Edited by Subrosian on 9/21/2013 2:46 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Hunter
9320
@Lore
@Watcher

On a larger note, I'm terrified by the precedent you're setting. You are basically mandating the guilds raid unlimited hours in the first two weeks, in order to take advantage of any strategy that makes a fight "less interesting than intended".

Guilds that want to raid at a normal pace get the option taken away from them.
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100 Tauren Druid
16375
Can we have a bit more clarification on these changes. When you say:

While we're still iterating on the exact changes, they will likely entail something along the lines of entirely removing the additional pulsed Corruption received from Burst of Anger and Residual Corruption, increasing players' starting Corruption to 75 as is the case on Normal, and adjusting the health of the Amalgam accordingly.


What exactly do you mean? Adjusting in which direction? I interpreted this as a health increase, but it appears that others are viewing this as the opposite.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
What exactly do you mean? Adjusting in which direction? I interpreted this as a health increase, but it appears that others are viewing this as the opposite.


Less damage and more health on a fight that's already somewhat tight would make it extremely too tight.
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