Proving Grounds - Gear Balance Issues.

90 Night Elf Hunter
15445
While doing the proving grounds I've noticed a slight issue in the balance of how gear is scaled down to 463 while keeping your hit and expertise untouched. This problem is for DPS and Tanks only, Healers are unaffected

The current way it is working is that all hit and expertise keep their full value from your piece's gear. For example if you have an item of high value hit/expertise such as Renataki's Soul Charm, at ilvl 522, it provides 1467 expertise, while the reforging portion that is scaled down to 463 allows 338 of another stat. This sounds extremely balanced for getting your hit caps with current gear and not losing them when your gear gets scaled down, however it also provides a slight balance problem for those with a naturally higher itemlevel.

If you were to step into the proving grounds with a 463 itemlevel, you would have to spend a large portion of your gear itemized towards getting that 6% hit cap for the proving grounds, while people in a 550 ilvl will take 4-5 pieces of gear with hit/expertise on that stat to instantly reach the cap. This gives a pretty large stat gain for those players over the casual 510-520 ilvl raiders that got their gear from the timeless isle. At my item level of 547 this saves me 1.5k worth of stats to place on other pieces of gear instead of points I would need to put into hit/expertise, which at this itemlevel is a large benefit to pushing more waves in endless.

Solutions:
The two possible solutions I can think of both have a downside, one being farming the right gear just for the proving grounds, though some of the top contenders already do that, and the other being having to reforge every time you come back from dungeons/raids and want to do proving grounds.

1. Give hit/expertise cap no matter what their current ratings are. This causes some large issues with just queueing up in the gear you have, but it is a more fixable solution for the players. While you won't have to get the best ilvl gear possible to do good numbers, you will have to farm gear with no hit/expertise on it just to maximize your stats anyways. This is a pretty bad solution, though I do enjoy the idea of farming up gear from heroics or lower tier raids to do better in the proving grounds.

2. Cause hit and expertise to also scale down, making it so that all gear is equally itemized (mostly, gem slots are always in your favor). This is a very expensive solution however, since anytime you want to switch between raid/dungeons/casual world stuff and Proving Grounds, you have to spend a couple hundred gold to fix your gear for the hit/expertise caps.

As you can imagine Solution 2 is the most balanced, however Solution 1 is the cheaper/more time consuming one, giving a bit of a grind for your gear to save you the money that Solution 2 would cost. The current way is the worst of the 3 in my opinion, because if you don't have access to that top-end raiding gear, you cannot get the best gear to maximize your stats, and are stuck with what you have.

Edit: I guess theres a solution 3, which is give everyone the exact same stats when they enter the proving grounds, but I imagine no one would enjoy the freedom, and be upset if they want to try something freaky like stacking 1 stat.
Edited by Deathmatress on 9/18/2013 10:46 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
10935
And that is why people have a different set of gear for challenge modes.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
0
for me to actually do the tank one on gold and endless i will need to fix up a cmode gear set (and im never going to do cmodes on my monk)

not a real big deal but with my current gear sets i end up at hit/exp caps, and like 6k mastery, 2k haste/crit which makes a huge difference in playstyle.

i was almost dirt poor when attempting it the first time (did tank silver and dps silver without though) so idk, maybe i was just being bad.

personally i think they should scale up to gear, and not the other way around.
Reply Quote
100 Dwarf Warrior
16725
OP, I'm fairly certain that's not how the gear scaling works.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14135
I wouldn't argue with this if they give melee dps 15% expertise to prevent stupid things like what happened to me on wave 44 - the mob turned around and parried me, then another then another and I lost by 50k damage.

Cuz blizzard's nice.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
12465
Why the game does anything to your gear is beyond me.

There should just be pre-defined stats for each class and you can queue up naked it you wanted. You'd be given those specific stats.

That's what I originally thought challenge modes would be like.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Mage
0
Why the game does anything to your gear is beyond me.

There should just be pre-defined stats for each class and you can queue up naked it you wanted. You'd be given those specific stats.

That's what I originally thought challenge modes would be like.


The reason they don't do that is the different weightings of certain stats, and how they can change from patch to patch meaning they would have to keep updating the stats for each spec. Of course, that assumes that they want to make sure each spec is reasonable in this gear-scaling content, but some specs/classes are already far, far worse than others (speaking to CMs here, I haven't done proving grounds) so it seems kind of moot. Sure, any class can do them, but not any class can shoot for record times (which I understand come with a title now..?).
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
12465
Why the game does anything to your gear is beyond me.

There should just be pre-defined stats for each class and you can queue up naked it you wanted. You'd be given those specific stats.

That's what I originally thought challenge modes would be like.


The reason they don't do that is the different weightings of certain stats, and how they can change from patch to patch meaning they would have to keep updating the stats for each spec. Of course, that assumes that they want to make sure each spec is reasonable in this gear-scaling content, but some specs/classes are already far, far worse than others (speaking to CMs here, I haven't done proving grounds) so it seems kind of moot. Sure, any class can do them, but not any class can shoot for record times (which I understand come with a title now..?).


Easy fix for that

Have a budget for stats based on what is obtainable for ilvl463 and let people assign them as they wish.
Edited by Lawbringer on 9/22/2013 9:45 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
16895
Ya I have to have over 17% hit just to get max hit in proving grounds.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
11375
And that is why people have a different set of gear for challenge modes.


This^^^

Just find gear with stats that you need and the most gem slots that are 463+.
Reply Quote
92 Pandaren Hunter
18435
Just an FYI, healers are very much affected. Resto druids have a basic haste breakpoint, as do monks. They're not terribly high, but certain gear combos make that harder to achieve.

Personally, while I like the proving grounds concept, especially as a learning tool when I play my alts, I dislike the manner in which gear is treated. There should be no need to reforge at full cost for the purpose of one instanced activity.

For CMs I can see it being more reasonable. There's more at stake, it's repeatable, rewards valor, etc. Proving grounds, as I understand it, are supposed to be a learning opportunity. Not a gold sink that discourages people for trying new things, especially if they're the right thing.

I don't want to sink 300 gold into a reforge to find it failed miserably at 463 ilvl, just to pay another 300 gold to undo it. I believe it should be free to reforge, and that any reforging done in PGs would be reverted upon leaving the instance.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Hunter
9805
Why don't they scale instance stats up based on your current equipped Ilvl instead of lowering you Ilvl? Seems like it would be less headache.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
11375
Just an FYI, healers are very much affected. Resto druids have a basic haste breakpoint, as do monks. They're not terribly high, but certain gear combos make that harder to achieve.

Personally, while I like the proving grounds concept, especially as a learning tool when I play my alts, I dislike the manner in which gear is treated. There should be no need to reforge at full cost for the purpose of one instanced activity.

For CMs I can see it being more reasonable. There's more at stake, it's repeatable, rewards valor, etc. Proving grounds, as I understand it, are supposed to be a learning opportunity. Not a gold sink that discourages people for trying new things, especially if they're the right thing.

I don't want to sink 300 gold into a reforge to find it failed miserably at 463 ilvl, just to pay another 300 gold to undo it. I believe it should be free to reforge, and that any reforging done in PGs would be reverted upon leaving the instance.


Again, thats why you create a challenge mode equipment set, so you dont have to QQ about reforging and its costs.

...and if you don't think the achievements and the realm ranking are worth doing it, then don't do it. Nobody is forcing you.
Reply Quote
92 Pandaren Hunter
18435
Perhaps we have different understandings of what proving grounds is supposed to achieve.

It's my understanding that it's supposed to be a learning tool. The NPC group explains the mob's attacks so players learn to recognize and properly react to their individual and group behavior. It's an extremely advanced target dummy. It's especially great for healers who get nothing from actual target dummies.

I don't believe it's purpose is to teach you exactly how to maximize your output at 463 ilvl. Again, I understand with Endless, why you might be inclined to feel that way, but I don't think that's justification to impose a serious tax on players who simply want to use this tool to improve themselves.

As I made clear, I think Challenge Modes are different. They provide significant compensation in the form of VP, champion rep, cosmetic rewards, bragging rights etc. There are nine(?) completely different, fully-realized, purpose built levels with multiple bosses that justify the investment in a specific set of armor.

I cannot, in it's present incarnation, see any justification for forcing players, especially new players using this as a learning tool, to feel forced into returning to outdated content to gather armor just to circumvent the unwarranted costs of reforging for this one minor activity.

In fact, from a consumers perspective, reforging is a giant gamble that comes with no consumer protection. It's like deciding for yourself what kind of dental treatment you need, having the dentist make the exact changes you requested and then walking out without a clue as to the results until you look in the mirror. Unless you know what you're doing there's a chance you just made everything worse. For 300g. There's also no refund policy regardless of results.

In my opinion reforging should come with perhaps a 15-minute return period. Just enough time to do some brief testing on a dummy or in the PGs and revert the change if you so desire.
Edited by Karamok on 9/27/2013 11:38 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7685
I went in with mostly 496 gear from Timeless Isles, except for two 463 rings and a couple of higher pieces. My avg. is iLvL 496 and my exp dropped to 12% from 15% and my hit down to 4% or there about.

I read that hit and exp were to remain stable and only the other stats would be evenly reduced. I spent time on this toon, enchanting and balancing my stats before I went in, only to find myself short of exp and hit. The results were my attacks were missing and I lost threat for the first time in a long time. This leads me to desire gear with even less avoidance than I have already, just to make cap.

Seriously though, if it's beyond technique of how to play your class and it's more like trying to do your best to maximize your gear for this environment, then is worth it. To me, it's no different from having gear for offspec, PvP or otherwise.

I'm not sure what will frustrate me more...

To get the gear that helps me get my gold medal, or the thought of Blizz changing the system enough to make my gear-quest pointless and thus being more time wasted.
Edited by Madamx on 10/9/2013 6:40 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Warrior
11085
Challenge modes / Proving grounds should just provide a static set of gear IMO.

I don't want to juggle a specific set for tank / dps just to do downgraded content. It's irritating, and takes away from the idea of it being a challenge of skill rather than how well you have completed in the dressing room challenge.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]