Do any other healers not like healing 25 man?

90 Pandaren Priest
8295
i have to think about who gets the initial application of renewing mist and who the best target for expel harm is

that's about it. i'll occasionally drop a em on a tank if he's taking a ton of damage, but then it ends up 1. not actually saving him and 2. being 80% overheal because someone else has actually done real tank healing.

normal garrosh i have a tiny window to actually burst heal after an iron star, for instance, because trickle healing/more effective burst healing (coughdivinestarcough) gets everyone topped up in around 2 seconds. i actually get to heal in intermissions, it's pretty cool. otherwise i sit there and wish we weren't overhealing while hitting ring of peace on cooldown.
Edited by Truelite on 9/28/2013 10:56 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
13720
Because 25mans have a ton of turnover and rarely will you get to raid with the same 24people today as you will a few months from now.


not all of them do. a few people may go here and there but any stable group has to have at least a core set of members. we've had most of the same members all expansion and before.

Spot damage, however, has a very different feel. In many/most 25M encounters, there are typically so many smart heals/ground heals going out that I don't react the same way as I do on 10M/essentially-10M* encounters.


Wow, you nerd. Am I the only spot healer in our entire raid? jk don't hit me i'm not actually being mean.
Edited by Tsilyi on 9/29/2013 12:27 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15910
Man this thread is about as good as the 10 vs 25 man threads that always happen in the Dungeons and Raids forums.


we just need subrosian and azane here and it will be just like D&R forums :3
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09/29/2013 12:44 AMPosted by Kitchenslave
Man this thread is about as good as the 10 vs 25 man threads that always happen in the Dungeons and Raids forums.


we just need subrosian and azane here and it will be just like D&R forums :3

Lets not summon them in here, please.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
09/28/2013 10:28 PMPosted by Elethia
This is a thread about whether people prefer 10/25 man and why, based on how they feel when raiding at that level (and I know exactly how you feel regarding the matter, because you've previously, specifically stated that you love raid healing). There's a huge difference between what they're doing and what you're doing. One is directed at the topic (I prefer 10M because I feel more engaged/use more of my toolkit/think more); the other is directed at people (LOL, [insert mockery/sarcasm here]).


I'm pretty sure you actually don't know exactly how I feel, since you're not inside my head.

You're taking what people have said entirely out of the original context, or you're purposely misquoting/misreading them to suit your needs.


That's your interpretation, but I'm glad to know that you feel I have an agenda and am purposely out to get people.

A. 25M raids are AE/smart heal heavy. Consequentially, people feel:
  • Less focused at the individual level.
  • Less crucial/less important.
  •  


    Just because you feel less important doesn't make you less important, nor does it mean that other healers also feel less important or crucial. Perception is not always reality, nor is it the same from person to person. You're free to feel that you are less important/crucial, but that doesn't make it true.

    Note: Cooldowns do not constitute the whole, or even majority, of AE healing. Prayer of Healing, ground heals, Chain Heal, Wild Growth, Circle of Healing, even Prayer of Mending, all count as AE heals. At this point, the vast majority of our AE heals are also smart heals. Considering that, it's disingenuous to take the concept of AE healing and boil it down to sarcastic comments about using DH on cooldown.


    I think you need to go back and re-read exactly what I was responding to. My comments about Divine Hymn were in direct response to Quess's comments about not having control over your own raid CDs.

    Note II: When people talk about using more of their toolkit, they're typically referring to the overall balance of their spell use. Sure, I use just about every spell in my arsenal as Holy, but the extent to which I use each spell is what matters to me.

    When people say they're using/seeing "nothing but AOE and smart heal[s]," what they're usually saying is "this is what it feels like". It's an obvious exaggeration.


    While it may be an obvious exaggeration to you, and perhaps to me, that does not mean that it's an obvious exaggeration to people unfamiliar with actually healing 25 man content.

    RE: Flash Heal/Greater Heal use.

    You're probably not using Flash Heal because its healing actually matters. You're using it because it fuels Serendipity.


    This is true some of the time, but it's just as often not true. I use Flash Heal FDCL Procs because they're free. When I am casting Flash Heal in other situations, it's because I genuinely feel that someone is about to die/needs the healing. Serendipity doesn't always play a part of it, and there are many times when, while I would like to get out that PoH to maximize my 2pc, it just isn't in the cards because someone needs spot healing right now.

    And ask yourself: how often do you actually use that Serendipity on Greater Heal? It's very easy to say "well, it depends on x and y". It's not wrong, but it's also an evasion. We are less likely to need to use Greater Heal at the 25M level than at the 10M level. It's a fundamental, and probably unchangeable difference.[/ul]


    It isn't an evasion. Quess said, and I quote, "How often do you cast flash heal/greater heal as a Holy Priest in your raids? I doubt you ever even have to cast single target heals on anyone but the tank." This is simply not the case. The only reason why I currently avoid using Greater Heal unless it's absolutely necessary is because it's likely to be overheal and I get very little from direct overheal. But that doesn't mean that I don't use it, and it doesn't mean that I only use it on the tank. I'm sorry that my honest answer doesn't fit into your little box to the point that you feel the need to say I'm being evasive.

    (Con't)
    Edited by Tiriel on 9/29/2013 1:54 AM PDT
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    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    B. I don't have to think as much.

    This ties directly into A. Our lack of engagement essentially equates to thinking less critically. We do have to think about some things in the same way; dispel mechanics, for instance, will typically be the same at either level.


    I don't know what your raids are like. I've never raided with you. I make critical decisions every single progression encounter. Now, I'll grant you, once something is on farm it's very easy to sit back, relax, and ride the easy train. But while we're progressing on a boss, my decisions can determine whether or not a) I live or die (which can lead to c), b) someone else lives or dies (which can also, of course, lead to C), c) the entire raid wipes. This can be a result of dispelling, or some other raid mechanic, standing in fire, not moving into the right spot at the exact right time, someone else not moving into the right spot at the exact right time, thinking someone is soaking something they're not soaking, not taking necessary damage, taking unnecessary damage, not having a raid CD ready/not using it at the right time, general bad positioning, incorrect timing. Not using the right heal at the right time.

    In short, I'm sorry, but I don't see how I'm thinking less critically now than I did when I was running 10 mans in DS/T14. Maybe it's because I am actually engaged in my raid healing, I don't know.

    Spot damage, however, has a very different feel. In many/most 25M encounters, there are typically so many smart heals/ground heals going out that I don't react the same way as I do on 10M/essentially-10M* encounters.

    *By essentially-10M, I mean 25M encounters where groups are spread/split in a way that mimics 10M raiding. Example: Spoils of Pandaria.[/ul]


    I don't heal Spoils any differently than I heal any other encounter. That may change once we start working on it on heroic, but so far it's been exactly the same as any other fight, just with more racing away from people and dropping bombs. Oh, and tidal waves.

    @Quess:

    I never said you don't have to think, that was somebody else. If you want my opinion, you have to think plenty, it's just not critical thinking.


    You're free to believe that, but you are mistaken in that respect.

    Edited for typos, it's 4am.
    Edited by Tiriel on 9/29/2013 2:09 AM PDT
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    90 Troll Druid
    10000

    Because 25mans have a ton of turnover and rarely will you get to raid with the same 24people today as you will a few months from now.


    I know Tsilyi already touched on this, but I agree with him that this is not necessarily true. In the 10m I was in during t14 and half of t15, I had fifteen different cohealers. (There were also DPS and tank changes, etc., but I think the cohealer statistic is a pretty clear indicator in its own right)

    The 25m I'm in has had more turnover than I'd like, but it's still been lower - I think there have only been two people I've healed with that aren't with the guild anymore.

    Edit: name-spelling
    Edited by Frozenorange on 9/30/2013 1:52 PM PDT
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    90 Blood Elf Mage
    11825
    09/29/2013 01:51 AMPosted by Tiriel
    Just because you feel less important doesn't make you less important, nor does it mean that other healers also feel less important or crucial. Perception is not always reality, nor is it the same from person to person. You're free to feel that you are less important/crucial, but that doesn't make it true.


    lol
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    90 Night Elf Priest
    13490
    not all of them do. a few people may go here and there but any stable group has to have at least a core set of members. we've had most of the same members all expansion and before.


    I dunno. We've seen a lot of roster change, and have so many "available this, but not that, day" raiders. Our Shaman and Paladins, especially, have been hit or miss in terms of availability and longevity. If we three priests, Eth and Intrigue were able to run 3 days a week every week, we'd be nearly set, but our healer availability has been especially rocky the past few months.

    @Tiriel:

    Slow your roll, Polly Paranoid. Chill out on the defensiveness, please.

    You have said, and I quote, "I like raid healing. It's why I joined a 25 man. I enjoy the playstyle." I am in your head insofar as you have let anyone in through your posts. It's also probably worth noting that, in the same post, you said, " I personally detest playing Holy in 10 mans."

    Nor did I accuse you of being "out to get" anyone. I was merely pointing out that you either didn't understand what was said in the first place, or you purposely misread/misquoted it to serve your own argument.

    I'm going to reiterate that this thread is precisely about how one feels in a given healing environment, and emphasize the fact that the two sentiments I chose to highlight in my previous post were opinions offered by other players well before I entered the thread.

    Healing absolutely matters at both levels, but the individual responsibility is greater at the 10M level than at the 25M. A 25M can afford to lose a healer. Heck, sometimes they can afford to lose three. The amount of effort required to cover for a lost healer is far, far greater at the 10M level. You're not losing 15-25% of the healing when it happens; you're losing 30-50%+.

    What you perceive as necessary (spot) healing often isn't. Often, not always. Sometimes, Joe McBladeflurry is off getting his block knocked off because he's interrupting some ranged caster mob or because he's just off being a derp. Most of the time, smart heals are going to more efficiently and, often, more quickly get to whoever has taken that spot spike. The fact that you specifically stated that you use use FH "all the freaking time...need to because of my 2pc" and because you "run FDCL...and not using them is a waste" doesn't hurt my argument either.

    I did combine what you said to Quess with your response to Crossbless, and I didn't edit what I wrote to appropriately say "sarcastic comments about using DH smart heals on cooldown". My bad. That doesn't invalidate the sentiment of the statement, though, which is that you're leaping to pretty absurd conclusions and inaccurately boiling down what people are saying. You did the same thing with me with the whole "out to get people" leap.

    I called what you said an evasion because it's the sort of non-answer we see a lot of on the forums. I also said you weren't wrong. Every action depends on the situation. The more honest answer, though, is that you rarely use Greater Heal at the 25M level. Heck, I can quote you saying, "I would be concerned, as a raid healer, if I was using single-target spells extensively, because that's not what I'm there for in a 25 man."

    This circles around to players feeling like they have to think less at the 25M level. The heavier emphasis on raid healing means our spell ratios lean disproportionately toward our AE heals. We don't have to shift gears as often. It's a different style of healing that requires a different mindset, and some people simply prefer how their brain focuses/functions at the 10M level.

    Some things are equal at both levels. Getting out of bad stuff, dispelling, following mechanics. Most of it isn't new, though, and isn't what I am (or, I'm almost positive, what others are) talking about when critical thinking is brought up.
    Edited by Elethia on 9/29/2013 7:04 PM PDT
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    90 Human Priest
    13720
    09/29/2013 03:27 PMPosted by Frozenorange
    Tsyilyi


    I'm not going to contribute anything insightful just yet but I wanted to quote this excellent spelling of my name.
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    90 Troll Priest
    7090
    I can never spell your name. I nearly always butcher it. it's tricky.

    Also:

    You all are too serious. If you prefer 25m and think 10m is for babies, whatever.

    If you prefer 10m and think 25m is for people who drool on the keyboard, whatever.

    What counts here, is that we're all healers, and that we're a community. Stop bickering about what you enjoy. There are differences that cannot be denied. But there is no objective way to say that one is better than the other, nor is their a reason to.

    Heal what you like, and shrug off the hate.
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    90 Blood Elf Priest
    15910
    09/29/2013 01:35 AMPosted by Korghal


    we just need subrosian and azane here and it will be just like D&R forums :3

    Lets not summon them in here, please.


    but it will be fun
    Edited by Kitchenslave on 9/30/2013 12:07 PM PDT
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    90 Human Priest
    13720
    no, no it wont.
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    90 Blood Elf Priest
    8340
    no, no it won't.

    Fixed it for you!
    Edited by Mythrose on 9/30/2013 2:00 PM PDT
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    90 Pandaren Priest
    8995
    I raid 10's out of accessibility. If I could I'd run all 25's.
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    90 Human Priest
    13720
    Fixed it for you!


    http://bit.ly/1dTrefL

    <3
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    21620
    `
    Edited by Euphoric on 10/1/2013 3:53 PM PDT
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    90 Undead Monk
    13535
    09/29/2013 06:55 PMPosted by Elethia
    Healing absolutely matters at both levels, but the individual responsibility is greater at the 10M level than at the 25M. A 25M can afford to lose a healer. Heck, sometimes they can afford to lose three. The amount of effort required to cover for a lost healer is far, far greater at the 10M level. You're not losing 15-25% of the healing when it happens; you're losing 30-50%+.


    You must overheal a lot of fights if you can lose three healers and still kill a boss.
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    90 Human Priest
    13720
    You must overheal a lot of fights if you can lose three healers and still kill a boss.


    so do you 3 heal every 25 man encounter? the idea is, it is still possible to complete even a heroic encounter with healers dying toward the end. it requires other people to pitch in and the cooldowns to be laid down very well, but you can't deny it is possible. oftentimes those are some of the kills that give the biggest rushes.

    also, due to our guild's policy on attendance and personnel, yes. we basically 6 heal every fight. we never use less than 6 healers. we may not be bleeding edge, but we did finish in US #103 25 man last tier (iirc). i wouldn't say whether the way we approach things is the best way for everyone or every guild, but it works for us. personally i wouldn't mind being given the opportunity to 5 or 4 heal, but our roster every night is literally set in stone from the outset and a fair amount of our dps/healers do not have strong offspecs. it's just the way we operate and we are ok with it.
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