A thought on fixing diseases for tanks

85 Worgen Death Knight
5345
Honestly, I don't know why people are so obsessed over the diseases for tanking.

Ok yeah, diseases used to be what DK's are all about, and they still are for the most part as DPS spec's. When I'm Unholy, I HAVE to put diseases up to maximize my dps. The skills you use benefit from it.

As for tanking, I love not having to use diseases. It's not like it's hard to tank without them, DnD and Blood Boil get the job done easily on AoE packs. As for the why I don't like putting diseases up, everyone is right about saving them for the Death Strike. It's much more beneficial then wasting time putting up 2 diseases while everyone unloads on the boss.

As tank spec, the only thing I use Icy Touch for anymore is picking up the Dark Nucleus on Blood Prince HM.

Point I'm trying to get across is, who cares if we don't need to use diseases to tank, we don't need them.
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
8025
The only time I go without both diseases are on multiple mob pulls where I choose not to use frost fever and only utilize heart strike and crimson scourge from blood boil. On boss encounters I maintain both frost fever and crimson scourge on the boss. Honestly, if death knight tanks are not using diseases at all they are just bad. Rune regeneration will be fixed when cataclysm hits. Right now we have BT on a 30 sec CD (if you do not you are fail), use that on CD every time, and you will have no problem keeping threat and maintain diseases when needed.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
5345
The only time I go without both diseases are on multiple mob pulls where I choose not to use frost fever and only utilize heart strike and crimson scourge from blood boil. On boss encounters I maintain both frost fever and crimson scourge on the boss. Honestly, if death knight tanks are not using diseases at all they are just bad. Rune regeneration will be fixed when cataclysm hits. Right now we have BT on a 30 sec CD (if you do not you are fail), use that on CD every time, and you will have no problem keeping threat and maintain diseases when needed.


How does it make the DK's who don't use diseases bad when WE DON'T HAVE TO.

Why waste runes on something that's not needed.
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
8025
If you are the only tank on a boss and are not sure why you should keep up frost fever and crimson scourge I don't know what to tell you. Blood plague is useless for obvious reasons but the disease frost fever and the crimson scourge debuff are pretty mandatory in any boss encounter.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
on 25 mans it's very likely there will be another dk or other tank providing the haste debuff automatically ... and blood boil only uses B runes, so nobody mind using it ..

so why again those dks would be bad ?

Now i do agree if people dont use diseases with outbreak, yeh, that's wrong, since outbreak is essencially ... free. But PS you can pretty much take it of your action bar.
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81 Human Death Knight
3600
what if when you BB a target with BP they release blood parasites that add to your threat.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
0
Change Scarlet Fever to

*Infestation

Your Festering Strikes now have a 50/100% chance to infect enemies within 10 yards with Scarlet Fever.

*Crimson Scourge

Your Festering Strikes now provides the Blood Shield mastery, although no health is received. In addition Festering Strikes damage is increased by 15/30% and refreshes diseases on all targets within 10 yards.

Removes Blood Boils clunky effects, removes the Pestilence CD which fluffs Blood's ramp up time, keeps the shield at the cost of health returned (but more threat), lets a Blood tank string along diseases for the last XX seconds before Outbreak comes off its CD. Blizz doesn't need to fiddle with diseases damage wise since having them up is so easy this way (and logistic nightmare of diseases impacting every spec).

More importantly, you make the decision to keep up threat while still maintaining your "block" value but losing out on one round of healing.
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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
What is that ^, I don't even...
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
8670
What is that ^, I don't even...


no idea, apparently isn't sure what gives him health and what doesn't
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85 Worgen Death Knight
8775
IMO make Blood's diseases last 5 minutes in PvE. That way they can be used and ignored at the same time!
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85 Worgen Death Knight
0
All I was theorizing was that it'd be easier if they rolled smething into Festering Strike so it had a more important role in a Blood Knights rotation over the god awful way BB and spreading diseases works.

Simply starting a fight with Outbreak with Epidemic talented is 33 seconds of diseases so if Festering Strike was altered through talents to provide:

1. Our Blood Shield equivalent to what a Death Strike would give us (minus the self healing obviously). This way while we use FS sparingly, we wont suffer the full drawbacks of not using DS. Its still a choice between threat and self healing, rather than losing out on the healing AND shield.

2. an on hit ability to spread diseases smoothly and provide some heavier hitting for a quicker ramp up.

3. Provide Scarlet Fever to round off the package when talented.

Then for a deep Blood Tree using Festering Strike to keep diseases up we wouldn't lose out on our mastery, we'd have a heavy hitting attack that adds our diseases (but not on an ability we would want to spam) but still requires the use of DnD/BB for AoE threat.

It also fits into a priority system well, if Outbreak is about to come off its CD you can decide to simply forgo FS for DS and its heal. If you've ever played Unholy FS (imho) adds a bit more to the whole disease mechanic since paying attention and smart use of it can have you chaining that disease timer for awhile.

I doubt Blizzard will buff diseases themselves, so we need a creative solution or DS is going to have that awful damage nerf associated with diseases going down again. They wont buff diseases up, it means recalibrating two other specs, so trust me, they'd nerf all tanking abilities to meet with bonus damage if diseases are up (meaning another godawful 4.5 ramp up time we enjoy currently without if we opt for diseases).
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670


As for tanking, I love not having to use diseases. It's not like it's hard to tank without them, DnD and Blood Boil get the job done easily on AoE packs. As for the why I don't like putting diseases up, everyone is right about saving them for the Death Strike. It's much more beneficial then wasting time putting up 2 diseases while everyone unloads on the boss.


Its not that its hard in any way. Its counter intuitive. You are essentially ignoring a core class mechanic that has been drilled into our minds for the last 2 years.

One of the core ideas for Death Knights were their diseases. Its almost sad to see us practically ignoring them (as well as essentially being able to ignore Blood Plague as Frost).

I know I am still applying diseases as a tank merely out of habit.



the problem is this:

- they are not easy or good to apply. Both IT and PS hit for mediocre dmg.
- they dont tick for any relevant amount
- they are not easy to maintain, since pestilence dont refresh the initial diseases and spread by 50% dmg.

Its not only about convenience. But when you create a mechanic that is not easy to apply as tank (that constantly changes targets and have to keep an eye for many important things), the dmg contribution/threat is low .. and you have to give up something (DS) do apply it ... people will simply not use it.

I understand if they dont want diseases to deal a lot of dmg, but imagine if they take a talent as useless as Crimson scourge and make something like this:

- Lowers the cooldown of your outbreak by 30 sec, causes it to generate threat based on your attack power. In adittion, your pestilence refresh the diseases on your target back to full duration (aka the glyph of disease we had).

So even if they do low dmg, they would be easy to apply and easy to maintain on several targets. You simply pull with outbreak, and then every 20-30 sec you use pestilence to keep the diseases up on everyone around you.

Its not that people are lazy. But its simply too painfull to manage diseases atm with all the other things we have to worry about, and they provide very little benefits .. so its better to simply ignore them.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12395
I understand if they dont want diseases to deal a lot of dmg, but imagine if they take a talent as useless as Crimson scourge and make something like this:

- Lowers the cooldown of your outbreak by 30 sec, causes it to generate threat based on your attack power. In adittion, your pestilence refresh the diseases on your target back to full duration (aka the glyph of disease we had).
Two things;
1. Crimson Scourge, while not a great talent, is far from useless. After taking everything that's considered mandatory you've got 1-2 points floating around, Crimson Scourge is worth more DPS per point than Blood-Caked Blade unless it somehow happened 100% of the time or Abomination's Might, which should be taken if your raid needs to aura. Butchery provides slightly greater single target threat but rarely is tanking just a 1 on 1 thing.
If you want to point out useless Blood talents try BCB or Hand of Doom.
2. What exactly would be the point of having a talent that lowers the CD of an ability and also gives another ability an effect that renders the CD reduction almost moot?
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
I understand if they dont want diseases to deal a lot of dmg, but imagine if they take a talent as useless as Crimson scourge and make something like this:

- Lowers the cooldown of your outbreak by 30 sec, causes it to generate threat based on your attack power. In adittion, your pestilence refresh the diseases on your target back to full duration (aka the glyph of disease we had).
Two things;
1. Crimson Scourge, while not a great talent, is far from useless. After taking everything that's considered mandatory you've got 1-2 points floating around, Crimson Scourge is worth more DPS per point than Blood-Caked Blade unless it somehow happened 100% of the time or Abomination's Might, which should be taken if your raid needs to aura. Butchery provides slightly greater single target threat but rarely is tanking just a 1 on 1 thing.
If you want to point out useless Blood talents try BCB or Hand of Doom.
2. What exactly would be the point of having a talent that lowers the CD of an ability and also gives another ability an effect that renders the CD reduction almost moot?


If you use plague strike to get a free BB, you broke a DS already. Its not worth it. We'll never have a problem using BB because it uses BLOOD RUNES, our other option is HS, which jee .. is so amazing ... blood boil DOES NOT HOLD AGGRO BY ITSELF. I'm sorry, this is how the game works. Its not my opinion, its what tanks on beta found out by testing. It doesnt matter if BB hits for 3k or 4200. We are not dpsers. The dmg difference dont accomplish nothing if it fails in the basic (AND IT DOES) that is: To hold aggro.

theres 2 options:
- you drop dnd, and hit BB without talent and you hold aggro. Which means the talent is wasted.
- you dont drop dnd, hit BB WITH the talent and you DONT hold aggro. Which means the +40% dmg meant nothing.

And pressing PS it already is "you did something wrong champ". You'll take more dmg (-1 DS), the extra threat from the disease will be irrelevant, and blood boil will still fail to accomplish its basic job.

Since the FIRST day that crimson scourge was implemented, there was not ONE person on beta that tested and said "oh hey, its a great talent". Communism gave the best possible description of it in the beta forums. "its a talent that you get a free BB if you are doing something wrong"

And outbreak and pestilence have different uses.

Outbreak is a tool to APPLY diseases. New targets, etc .. or simply keep them in a single target rotation.

Pestilence is to spread them in an aoe scenario and to keep them on mobs around you easier.

They are not for the same purpose. I thought that was quite obvious. If you want (in that scenario) to sacrifice an HS or BB to refresh diseases that can be refreshed for free .. be my guest.

When every beta tester that care to discuss things on the foruns, reached the same conclusion, that crimson scourge is horrible. Maybe theres a reason behind =)
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12395
If only there was something that could let you use a Blood Rune on something that costs Frost or Unholy Runes. If only we had something like... Oh wait, there is.
Even if you don't use the Blood Swarm portion of the talent, there's the fact that it lets you sacrifice less threat when you need to refresh Scarlet Fever, and even after all the mandatory things you've got a point or two to spare so, hey, why not?

I'm well aware of the difference to the abilities, but by dropping Outbreak to 30 seconds and making it generate threat that scales with Attack Power there's not much reason to not use it on CD, even in an aoe situation where you'd just Pestilence after the fact. Unless of course the threat wasn't worth mentioning, but then if it's not worth mentioning why suggest that it be added to the ability?
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
its about a class mechanic that is not being used or partially ignored.

As i said, we dont use diseases because we dont want. The entire problem resides within IT and PS. They are horrible skills, eat 2 gcd, dont do anything extra and force you to sacrifice DS (or a defensive/threat ability) to gain something we dont need: extra threat.

Theres no "diseaseless" blood. There is now because we dont have outbreak. On cata everyone simply uses diseases 1/2 of the time (30 sec duration and 1 min cd of outbreak) simply because when they are FREE, and EASY to apply, theres no reason to not use them.

Atm IT and PS are not worth the tradeof. Outbreak will always worth it because its essencially free.

When you ask people: "Will you waste 2 gcd, and give up a defensive ability and take more dmg in order to gain 2-3% threat that you dont need?" they'll say "no" ...

But when you ask people: "will you waste 1 gcd, not give up anything to gain 2-3% threat for free, even if you dont need?" .. they'll say "sure, the more the merrier"


Eventually John blizzard will get annoyed because there will be a lot of retards saying "DONT USE DISEASES NOOB" because they partially read a guide instead of understanding why its happening .. and might make something stupid like "in order for blood to use diseases again, now everything require diseases to deal descent dmg".

If they NEVER change the way its currently working, great. But usually they break things for a couple of months before actually making it work. Or dont you remember "we'll fix frost tree to get rid of shadowfrost, that was never intended to happen" ... aka "we'll break frost and make it unplayable for 3-4 months before actually making it competitive again".
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13770
Thank you Landale and Eflow. The many "Diseasless" threads on the forums were making my eyes bleed. That is, until I read this thread and got the "why" behind all the grumble and groan going on.

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90 Draenei Death Knight
6180
You guys do realize with blizzards history if they do address the issue, they will simply redo our mastery to something like "causes your blood boil to do 5% more damage and each addition point will increase blood boils damage by .1%" to simply eliminate our desire for the extra DS. Without the shield from the mastery it would be almost as pointless as BB since its healing isnt all that great. We use it for the shield not the health.
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