Caster MHs Return, Ehnc needs tweaking

90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
We just need to give feedback when raiding starts to ensure these problems are REAL in game-live problems.



You mean like the 10 or so pages of parses showing enhance shaman lagging way behind other classes that was summarily ignored by GC?

Yea, that will help.
You know what the definition of insanity is? Doing something again and expecting a different result.

Shaman expecting parity are pretty much the textbook definition. They told about scaling problems in LK during beta. "You are fine" Lagged behind every other class once the gear hit tier 9. Pointed out the melee issues other classes got hotfixes for hurt enhance too and they need immediate help. "You are fine at 85"

I gave up on the class for a reason.
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Blizzard should fix Enhancement's scaling so this doesn't happen repeatedly within a 2 year span. If the class is having the problem surface repeatedly, look at the scaling problems with windfury to make windfury more preferable...

It's not a hard fix by any means for the design team.
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85 Dwarf Shaman
AT
11605
Bit of an update to this situation; Flametongue's direct damage has roughly doubled since the 4.0.3a patch. Here are some parses to show what I mean;

Nov 17th - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nj3ny35uph7wn27d/details/23/?s=570&e=704
Nov 23rd - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k51em9emll1nk2xo/details/11/?s=1815&e=1962

Same fight, same gear, same everything but on the parse from the 17th (patch 4.0.3) my average FT damage was 982 hit, 1557 crit. On the 23rd, after the 4.0.3a patch landed my average FT damage was 1985 hit, 3020 crit. The same pattern holds throughout the entire parse.

So, we were already looking at the possibility of using a caster MH with WF/FT before, now FT damage has doubled. We certainly needed the damage boost but it's not a good way to make us not want to use caster weapons or use double FT. From what I've been reading it seems that FT is now scaling properly with Mastery (before it wasn't) but that it is also scaling a bit from AP directly, but only if you're specced Enhancement. I'm sure Rouncer will post soon to clarify the math.

In any case, this is a very large push in the direction of caster MHs and potentially double FT come Cataclysm.

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90 Goblin Shaman
15435
I actually already posted about the math, although that was referring to the Beta. Seems the way it was scaling in the Beta has made it to the live servers. Only problem being that we haven't sorted out the actual formula yet as it seems to have some nonlinear scaling with the AP portion where the coefficient increases the more AP you have.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1009661153?page=5#93

Basic Formula for Flametongue damage
((305 + (SP * 0.15244) + (AP * X)) * (base weapon speed / 4.0)) * mastery = damage

where X seems to have a value between 0.026 and 0.048 corresponding to somewhere between a 2.6% and a 4.8% AP coefficient with the coefficient getting larger the more AP it has to work with.

Not sure if it's just a bug or an intended change. The AP scaling only occurs with an enhancement spec so it does seem intentional but maybe we are just seeing an intermediate step before it only scales from AP for enhancement. None of our other spells are scaling this way from what I could tell when I was playing around on the Beta although I'm not 100% positive about Frostbrand. I'm 90% sure I tested it too and that it was scaling normally from just spellpower but can't find it in my notes.
Edited by Rouncer on 11/26/2010 4:16 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12360
I used to bring this up myself.....having the same setup as Elemental with FS and Lava Burst, as our FS and LL. But there was the drawback of other shocks which Enhance takes more advantage of. Then I also remember your idea to have it based off FT imbue attacks. Problem with both of these is how our shocks and imbues are totally different between pve and pvp. The only source of damage that remains consistent is Searing Totem....which is why I figured they settled on that.

Not quite true. I'm pretty sure I brought it up somewhere in this thread, but:

Storm Strike stays consistent. I would have been much happier with 4.0 if instead of Searing Flames, we got something like "When you use Storm Strike, your next Lava Lash deals 100% more damage," with the talent being named Aftershock or Thundering Echoes, or something along those lines.
Or maybe even the Shaman self-buff could be something like "Your next Lava Lash deals damage from both hands," and that would definitely kill caster MHs for good.

I find that idea much more appealing, tbh, even with the cooldowns not being perfectly synced. Because part of why I find SF boring is that, almost without fault, your Lava Lash always gets the 5-stack from SF. And in the cases it doesn't, it will at least get a partial stack.
The other reason is that there's very little skill involved in making that 5-stack happen, if there even is any (this is the point Rouncer and I seem to disagree on, iirc). Which is another reason I would love to have a 1-2 punch with our melee strikes, as Lava Lash being the "follow-up" attack (wasn't that it's original design?) - because then there's some actual player skill involved in cooldown management.

It seems to me that Blizz wants our spec focused on cooldown management, after all, and this would fit nicely with that.

If we had this 1-2 punch set-up, we'd have to do our best to time our SS and LL cooldowns just right (like if LL came off a GCD ahead of time, should we wait on SS for the boost?), and then separately also track the UE+Shock cooldowns.

That would be more fun for me. And the only real downside would be losing the benefit of how SF can be used even against ranged classes when they move out of melee range.

But hey... we still have Unleash Elements. The individual elements you unleash may change, but you still use the UE spell itself. It would be even more interesting if that 1-2 punch buff came from UE instead of SS. Or possibly both, I don't know, since UE has that nasty 15 second cooldown.


I will admit with such a set-up, they would then have to deal, once again, with making sure we use Searing Totem for single-target, and Magma Totem for multi-target...
But I really, really wish they'd found a better way to do that. It could even have been something as simple as "Your Searing Totem attacks cause your melee strikes and spells to deal 2% more damage for 10 seconds, stacking up to 5 times."
That would have felt just right to me.
Edited by Matuk on 11/27/2010 1:42 AM PST
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1 Human Warrior
0
I dont know if this has been mentioned yet but Enhance PvE is not the only one suffering...


Enhance in PvP environment is completely terrible right now. Worse than Ret Paladins but of course Ret gets all the fixes and buffs.
Edited by Shrutefarms on 11/27/2010 5:33 AM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
15435
So I have a theory about the direction the developers might be taking the spec and if it's right then we will have nothing to worry about with Caster MHs or with FT/FT.

As stated before, flametongue is currently scaling from AP as well as from spellpower. It only scales from AP if specced enhancement. None of our other spells are scaling that way. I just checked them on the live server and all of them, including frostbrand, are scaling straight from spellpower just as expected.

Brynmor posted that parse with the current Flametongue and he was directly midpack on all of the fights. Problem being that if FT stays scaling the way that it is right now off of both spellpower and attack power we will eventually end up using FT/FT and running caster MHs. I'm thinking they are letting flametongue double-dip just for now to get us back to where we should be on the meters but then they are planning on removing that double-dipping as we start to level.

What would happen if they pushed the new AP scaling up to 7.5% and removed the spellpower scaling altogether? Caster MHs go away completely since without flametongue benefiting from their spellpower there just isn't enough damage for that additional spellpower to effect to be worth the loss in weapon dps. FT/FT also goes away too because of FT's short ICD, because running WF/FT gives an additional passive bonus from UE and because WF/FT also gives a lot more MW stacks then FT/FT.

Flametongue does scale from mastery but windfury gets that 40% scaling boost from Elemental Weapons. Add all that together and there will be a point where FT/FT would start to ourperform WF/FT but it would be at levels of mastery that just shouldn't be anywhere near to being attainable before the next gear reset.

Hopefully that is what they have been intending to do with flametongue all along. Turning the spellpower scaling of flametongue off for enhancement and having it only scale from attack power. If that has been their plan all along then that's just amazing. If it's all just a coincidence then I hope they consider going that route in 10 days or so when we all start to level up. Really would be nice not to have to think about those caster mainhands or about FT/FT when looking through the gear lists and testing various combinations on the sim.
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90 Tauren Shaman
12360
So I have a theory about the direction the developers might be taking the spec and if it's right then we will have nothing to worry about with Caster MHs or with FT/FT.

As stated before, flametongue is currently scaling from AP as well as from spellpower. It only scales from AP if specced enhancement. None of our other spells are scaling that way. I just checked them on the live server and all of them, including frostbrand, are scaling straight from spellpower just as expected.

Brynmor posted that parse with the current Flametongue and he was directly midpack on all of the fights. Problem being that if FT stays scaling the way that it is right now off of both spellpower and attack power we will eventually end up using FT/FT and running caster MHs. I'm thinking they are letting flametongue double-dip just for now to get us back to where we should be on the meters but then they are planning on removing that double-dipping as we start to level.

What would happen if they pushed the new AP scaling up to 7.5% and removed the spellpower scaling altogether? Caster MHs go away completely since without flametongue benefiting from their spellpower there just isn't enough damage for that additional spellpower to effect to be worth the loss in weapon dps. FT/FT also goes away too because of FT's short ICD, because running WF/FT gives an additional passive bonus from UE and because WF/FT also gives a lot more MW stacks then FT/FT.

Flametongue does scale from mastery but windfury gets that 40% scaling boost from Elemental Weapons. Add all that together and there will be a point where FT/FT would start to ourperform WF/FT but it would be at levels of mastery that just shouldn't be anywhere near to being attainable before the next gear reset.

Hopefully that is what they have been intending to do with flametongue all along. Turning the spellpower scaling of flametongue off for enhancement and having it only scale from attack power. If that has been their plan all along then that's just amazing. If it's all just a coincidence then I hope they consider going that route in 10 days or so when we all start to level up. Really would be nice not to have to think about those caster mainhands or about FT/FT when looking through the gear lists and testing various combinations on the sim.

I'm personally hoping they decide to do that for all of our spells, though I know it's just wishful thinking.
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
Then they should just go the whole way and turn Flametongue and Frost Brand into elemental damage melee abilities, like Lava Lash. That means pure scaling from our Weapon DPS, full 100% melee crits, working with our melee crit, hit and expertise and so on. That would pull caster weapons out of our view forever and also would buff the currently abyssal low values of crit rating and weapon damage for us.

So I can just repeat the other ideas to improve our mechanics and scaling:
  • change Flametongue and Frost Brand to elemental damage melee attacks (like LL), that scale from our weapon damage, our melee crit and hit chances and also have 100% crit strike damage, but have no off-hand penalty

  • limit our Mastery to spells and totems only, so no weapon enchants and Lava Lash, which would nerf it by around a third, putting the mastery stat in a place above crit and haste rating, but behind our primary stat agility

  • buff the damage of Storm Strike and/or buff the Focused Strikes talent

  • replace Fire Nova with Thunder Shock (same range and cooldown as all shocks, but with only ~60% the direct damage of Frost/Earth Shock and a 10yrds AoE as its secondary effect)


Some other points, now that I can post here:
  • don't forget that our AoE is completly spellpower based, so even if a caster mainhand is only second best in single-target fight, it could become best in heavy AoE fights

  • the naming convention should be melee strikes and spells, that either do physical or elemental damage in our case (there is no "cast"-damage and don't forget that there are even casted spells that do physical damage like Earth Quake)

---
My european main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackrock/jaffnar/
Edited by Jaffnar on 11/30/2010 1:46 AM PST
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75 Troll Druid
670
Hopefully that is what they have been intending to do with flametongue all along. Turning the spellpower scaling of flametongue off for enhancement and having it only scale from attack power. If that has been their plan all along then that's just amazing. If it's all just a coincidence then I hope they consider going that route in 10 days or so when we all start to level up. Really would be nice not to have to think about those caster mainhands or about FT/FT when looking through the gear lists and testing various combinations on the sim.


>.>
<.<

Yes.. that was.... always the plan...
>.>
<.<
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
So I have a theory about the direction the developers might be taking the spec and if it's right then we will have nothing to worry about with Caster MHs or with FT/FT.

As stated before, flametongue is currently scaling from AP as well as from spellpower. It only scales from AP if specced enhancement. None of our other spells are scaling that way. I just checked them on the live server and all of them, including frostbrand, are scaling straight from spellpower just as expected.

Brynmor posted that parse with the current Flametongue and he was directly midpack on all of the fights. Problem being that if FT stays scaling the way that it is right now off of both spellpower and attack power we will eventually end up using FT/FT and running caster MHs. I'm thinking they are letting flametongue double-dip just for now to get us back to where we should be on the meters but then they are planning on removing that double-dipping as we start to level.

What would happen if they pushed the new AP scaling up to 7.5% and removed the spellpower scaling altogether? Caster MHs go away completely since without flametongue benefiting from their spellpower there just isn't enough damage for that additional spellpower to effect to be worth the loss in weapon dps. FT/FT also goes away too because of FT's short ICD, because running WF/FT gives an additional passive bonus from UE and because WF/FT also gives a lot more MW stacks then FT/FT.

Flametongue does scale from mastery but windfury gets that 40% scaling boost from Elemental Weapons. Add all that together and there will be a point where FT/FT would start to ourperform WF/FT but it would be at levels of mastery that just shouldn't be anywhere near to being attainable before the next gear reset.

Hopefully that is what they have been intending to do with flametongue all along. Turning the spellpower scaling of flametongue off for enhancement and having it only scale from attack power. If that has been their plan all along then that's just amazing. If it's all just a coincidence then I hope they consider going that route in 10 days or so when we all start to level up. Really would be nice not to have to think about those caster mainhands or about FT/FT when looking through the gear lists and testing various combinations on the sim.


If all that were true, why the heck wouldn't GC have said so way back when and negated the entire discussion that's gone on for like 30+ pages counting the 2 threads?
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85 Draenei Shaman
6640

If all that were true, why the heck wouldn't GC have said so way back when and negated the entire discussion that's gone on for like 30+ pages counting the 2 threads?


So he can giggle over gin and coffee while we drown in speculative madness?

I mean, that's what I'd do.
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85 Orc Shaman
11795
So I have a theory about the direction the developers might be taking the spec and if it's right then we will have nothing to worry about with Caster MHs or with FT/FT.


I agree with you on this one. The anecdotal evidence seems to point that way. Especially with their comments about not letting caster weapons happen again for enhance.

My main concerns are as follows:

1.) The only response we have to go off of on whether or not we can maintain the slow slow WF/FT assumption is the post made in passing about hem not letting caster weapons happen again. Albeit that comment is more than we have had in the past, but it is still not a whole lot to go on.

I would feel better if they could confirm our assumptions about the direction of the class/spec. I personally think that we are safe on the assumptions we have made. My worry is that the costs associated with our gear choices if any parts of those assumptions are wrong or are even wrong for a short period is pretty big.

2.) Most of us agree that the way everything is going, the problem with FT/FT and caster weapons is on the projected path. I agree with you Rouncer that the double dip may be an effort to keep our heads above water until we level, but as is, our heads are barely above water at 80. My number one fear is that any changes they do will be based off of the poor dps output that we have seen at 80 at the end of wrath rather than where we all hope to be at 85. In the past, I don’t remember such reactions to our dps output working out favorably. Towards the end of Beta the dps we were doing was still feeling a little low and our lvl 80 post patch has left a lot to be desired.

3.) All of this going on is taking away from sorting out our aoe mechanics. Of course, no mater how dirty our aoe makes me feel, using a caster weapon would make me feel worse.
Edited by Halkalla on 11/30/2010 9:09 AM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
15435
If all that were true, why the heck wouldn't GC have said so way back when and negated the entire discussion that's gone on for like 30+ pages counting the 2 threads?


Ziff thinks it's the spellpower from the old 30% Mental Quickness bugging out and showing up and the math does support that view. Although why it would be bugging out on just Flametongue and none of the other spells is what seems odd to me. So the idea that it is just a random bug or that it is a conscious choice are both supported by that evidence.

<Tin Foil Hat> It's easier to buff a class through a bug when you aren't sure you are going to leave that bug in place or not. Especially for a spec that isn't doing well and that has low representation already. <Tin Foil Hat>

I don't know why it's bugged and working that way. I prefer thinking it was a choice because that implies that they were thinking about us and it beats the alternative which is that it's a random bug that has persisted through multiple patches and made it onto the live server because we are that low of a priority to fix. That the bug actually moved us to mid-pack on the meters being nothing more then random luck and that they will remove it whenever they get around to it no matter what it does to our place on those meters or to how we play the spec.

Edited by Rouncer on 11/30/2010 10:02 AM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
0
I would like to see people not only reference PvE but also the usefulness of alot of these abilitys in PvP and how effective a shaman is incomparsion to many of the other class's. I find my self asking why do we even have abilitys arnt useful in both PvP and PvE or talents as well.

Example


Frozen Power: As a shaman in pvp the only thing your gaining is the ability to root a target that is further then 15 yards away which is very important but we dont gain the 10% extra damage because in 99.9% of the time we will always have FT off hand and WF main hand. As for PvE placing 2 points in this is completely pointless.

Earthern Power: PvP the only class that truly keeps a player slowed more then any other class would be the Frost mage and in most cases Earthern power is not going to prevent the player or his pet from chain rooting u (which earthern doesnt ge tu otu of) of course we can use the pvp trinket, our dogs speed boost, and Shamanistic Rage but all of these abilitys are not up nearly enough to prevent a ice mage from kiting you. Of course im ranting there assuming your a solid pvper of course there are means of handling slows but Grabbing EP talent is not one that is going to pop in your mind over grabbing any other talent in the tree line. PvE once more 99.9% of the time this totem is not going to be dropped therefore this talent for both PvE and PvP (currently) doesnt make much sense.


Mind you I understand that I more then likely dont make much sense. But my purpose of pointing these things out is to show the major flaws that lie within the enhancement dps line specially seeing as the likely hood of things like rockbiter being used in PvP and frostbrand weapon may have there uses for one but completely no use for the other. our damage is not scaling at the same level as the other dps class's and we are just not bringing enough to the table. (hope some of this made some type of sense and i am sure that i left plenty of errors for people to pick through if it didnt make sense.)
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