Caster MHs Return, Ehnc needs tweaking

100 Tauren Shaman
13840
It should need some insanely high value of mastery for earth shock to outperform flame shock since it needed something like 80% when I was playing with it under the old mastery of just nature damage and I'm pretty sure that was before UE_F affected the DoT.


Well that's good news.

I can't help but hope for a more interesting rotation, regardless. :)
Blizzard has been saying lately they want things in game to encourage players to go the right direction, both in gear and in how abilities are used, so I'm surprised Enhancement's Shock set-up wasn't looked at in regards to that design goal.

(speaking of which, that design goal is yet another reason for our Mastery to be changed to Melee and Nature over the current elemental set-up, though I think you said that already Rouncer)
Edited by Matuk on 11/9/2010 3:55 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
6640
Sigh, no changes in the beta build other than healing rains.

Enjoying the passive spell hit for DKs though <rolleyes>
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100 Tauren Shaman
13840
Sigh, no changes in the beta build other than healing rains

Enjoying the passive spell hit for DKs though <rolleyes>

Yes, this frustrates me. Not only do Ret and DKs get Spell Hit, but they've both had it buffed from 6% to 6% and 9%, respectively.

Where's mine!?


Also... we need more Shaman to like the OP so that this issue is finally more seriously looked at! Even if you don't particularly agree with her chosen suggestions, getting the issue brought to the fore-front of developer focus for Shaman is the most important part.
Edited by Matuk on 11/10/2010 7:43 AM PST
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100 Goblin Shaman
16735
Yes, this frustrates me. Not only do Ret and DKs get Spell Hit, but they've both had it buffed from 6% to 6% and 9%, respectively.
Where's mine!?

Why do you care what they get or don't get? All I care about is my potential place on the meters and if they are able to get us to the same place as ret and the dks with our needing more hit rating then I really don't give a crap.

I'm more worried about our tuning knob - mastery, the thing they are supposed to be able to turn if we don't scale as well as others, changing the assumptions we are meant to have about how we are supposed to play the spec.

I won't be happy if they spin that knob to get us where we need to be and it has us wanting to use caster mainhands or to run FT/FT. I'll be even less happy if they spin that knob and we start to use them only to spin it back a month later and buff something else instead.

That's why I like the idea of our mastery being either melee and nature or even just nature again since then it either reinforces the basic assumptions of how we are meant to play or it's just not strong enough to change them.
Edited by Rouncer on 11/10/2010 9:03 AM PST
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85 Dwarf Shaman
9035
Tad off topic, is the caster main hand with WF on par while hard casting Lava Burst? (as was mentioned once upon a time on Mmo-champ)? Or just passive a caster main hand can compare to a agil mainhand?
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100 Tauren Shaman
13840
Yes, this frustrates me. Not only do Ret and DKs get Spell Hit, but they've both had it buffed from 6% to 6% and 9%, respectively.
Where's mine!?

Why do you care what they get or don't get? All I care about is my potential place on the meters and if they are able to get us to the same place as ret and the dks with our needing more hit rating then I really don't give a crap.

I'm more worried about our tuning knob - mastery, the thing they are supposed to be able to turn if we don't scale as well as others, changing the assumptions we are meant to have about how we are supposed to play the spec.

I won't be happy if they spin that knob to get us where we need to be and it has us wanting to use caster mainhands or to run FT/FT. I'll be even less happy if they spin that knob and we start to use them only to spin it back a month later and buff something else instead.

That's why I like the idea of our mastery being either melee and nature or even just nature again since then it either reinforces the basic assumptions of how we are meant to play or it's just not strong enough to change them.

It's not so much what they're getting and what I'm not.

But that Enhancement will require the most Expertise/Hit combination of any class.
Meaning... less Agility from gems, less Mastery from Reforging.

I am just as worried about the Caster MH and Mastery problem as you are, but frankly, I don't want to focus on one single issue for Shaman, fight for months to get it changed, and then turn back around and go "All right, now how about this one too?" and then have to fight for another couple of months.

I'd like it if Blizzard would, just this ONCE, actually blanket address a majority of our class and spec problems. Right now, Shaman appear to be very low priority as far as who gets what balancing tweaks.
Edited by Matuk on 11/10/2010 9:41 AM PST
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80 Draenei Shaman
5665
If they were to change the mastery to melee - nature damage the they could allow LL to be effected by UE-F to compensate for the 40~% lost from mastery.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13840
If they were to change the mastery to melee - nature damage the they could allow LL to be effected by UE-F to compensate for the 40~% lost from mastery.

Exactly, though the cooldowns of the two abilities don't exactly match.

You'd get two UE casts for every three LL casts.
Even so, I kind of like that, in much the same way that I'm glad Unleash Wind's attack speed buff isn't 100% uptime.
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85 Orc Shaman
7605
I think it would be pretty sweet to equip a slow caster in your MH like this

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/65090/twilights-hammer/

Have a regular melee weapon in your OH. We do both kinds of damage...almost seems like what we should do. Gonna stick to Duel wield agility weapons for now. But I hope that's why that maces speed is so slow >.>
Edited by Mallcious on 11/10/2010 12:49 PM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
7605
deleted
Edited by Mallcious on 11/10/2010 1:12 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
12025
Guys, just keep in mind that Flametongue WAS bugged on the previous Beta build: it was gaining TWICE the value of Mastery that it should have. That tells us two things: that they are listening and that they are trying to fix some of our problems. Tests are useful under controlled conditions, but I advise against jumping to conclusions based on broken mechanics in game.

Yes it is a good idea to bring up our concerns now so they have time to muse them over, but we don't know for sure that we have a problem until FT is acting appropriately. If anyone would like to test FT on the latest Beta build before I get home, be my guest.

Also, my combined hours of testing over two different days showed that Caster/Melee was roughly with ~1% of Melee/Melee, a situation we already find ourselves in on live atm. If you would like, I would be HAPPY to upload a 30 minute WoL parse with each setup so that you can have more detailed data to work with. I'll even reforge the gear in an attempt to maximize our damage (and bring more mastery to bear).
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100 Goblin Shaman
16735
or they could always listen to Karalyn of <Ruin>'s suggestion and have Flametongue do ~40% of weapon damage per melee hit as fire damage. Have it be unaffected by the offhand penalty.

Then they could either set it to crit for double like a melee attack with a crit rate based off melee crit rates or they could leave it with spell crit rate and the 50% crit rate but either way the damage would be roughly the same as under the current system for enhancement without any worries about people using caster mainhands for that additional spellpower.
Edited by Rouncer on 11/10/2010 2:19 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
13840
or they could always listen to Karalyn of <Ruin>'s suggestion and have Flametongue do ~40% of weapon damage per melee hit as fire damage. Have it be unaffected by the offhand penalty.

Then they could either set it to crit for double like a melee attack with a crit rate based off melee crit rates or they could leave it with spell crit rate and the 50% crit rate but either way the damage would be roughly the same as under the current system for enhancement without any worries about people using caster mainhands for that additional spellpower.

That is actually a change that I would love to see.

It's not really like Elemental relies on damage from Flametongue procs, do they? At any point?
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85 Draenei Shaman
1970
Just to chime in here.....

Things I feel Enhancement greatly needs to keep Melee damage relevant and prevent Caster MH's or spell damage taking over:

-Break Caster MH's.....fast swing speed, low dps, ect. whatever needs to be done without hurting the casters who actually use it.
-Unique Imbues. Will be able to buff each individually then, such as WF procs, without worrying about stacking enchants.

-A Scaling component for Agility.....X%. In Unleashed Rage. (to keep gear upgrades attractive with or without mastery)
-A Scaling component for Weapon Damage.....X% for using a 1H Weapon in Dual Wield Spec. (so that WF, SS, and Melee attacks will always contribute a significant portion of our overall damage and not get overshadowed)


@ Melee and Nature as a Mastery

I really can't see this working. No other Melee class needs this in their Mastery to keep their physical damage relevant. It would totally devalue Agility as a stat. If you think about gear upgrades, or even smaller things like socket bonuses, or trinket/relic procs....the main stat we always get more of is Agility. You won't always get more mastery, but you will always get more agility and that should directly influence our weapon damage.

Nature damage also is too vague for our specific mastery, its everything we discussed months ago. When it comes to PVE, we have other magic sources like all our periodic fire damage that comes from flame shock, searing flames, and totems. Then in PVP, you have frost shock and frost brand, two important sources of burst damage. You also have the lack of LB as a source of nature damage. We should be rewarded for maintaining flame shock in pve by having more damage via our mastery, and increasing our uptime on our target in pvp resulting in more FB procs.



@ FT turned to 40% weapon damage.


I think it's a good idea. FT's scaling can be easily adjusted right now so it doesn't scale too crazy with SP or Mastery....only Enhance benefits from the damage. Making it into a % of Weapon damage is a good idea cause hopefully that would force them to properly tune our weapon damage as well and monitor the scaling on that.


FT is doing more damage then WF, so it's obviously still bugged. I'm hoping in the process of getting that fixed they are also looking into the whole caster mh and mastery overscaling issues.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13840
@ Melee and Nature as a Mastery
I really can't see this working. No other Melee class needs this in their Mastery to keep their physical damage relevant. It would totally devalue Agility as a stat. If you think about gear upgrades, or even smaller things like socket bonuses, or trinket/relic procs....the main stat we always get more of is Agility. You won't always get more mastery, but you will always get more agility and that should directly influence our weapon damage.

Nature damage also is too vague for our specific mastery, its everything we discussed months ago. When it comes to PVE, we have other magic sources like all our periodic fire damage that comes from flame shock, searing flames, and totems. Then in PVP, you have frost shock and frost brand, two important sources of burst damage. You also have the lack of LB as a source of nature damage. We should be rewarded for maintaining flame shock in pve by having more damage via our mastery, and increasing our uptime on our target in pvp resulting in more FB procs.

It would do the job rather nicely, I feel. As Rouncer has said, it would finally cement our playstyle into the specific niche of 2 slow Agi 1-handers, once and for all. No other change to our spec could truly break it, or suddenly make caster MHs viable, if such a change were made. The Mastery likely would never trump Agility, either, simply because Agility will cause the Melee portion of our Mastery to provide a larger return (as well as the Nature portion, since it would indirectly improve our spell damage).
Recall what Rouncer has said before: he is already beginning to sim that Mastery outperforms Agility, and we are only beginning to touch what values of Mastery we're capable of reaching!

I feel that this situation is largely due to the simple fact that Mastery increases how hard our spells hit, but not how hard our melee hits, which is the primary reason, as you say, to get Agility. If we get the Mastery Rouncer described, it would have no effect on how hard Lava Lash hits. Lava Lashes huge crits are the primary reason Mastery is so damn godly right now, and I hate that Lava Lash is our BIGGEST hit of all.

I didn't want Lava Lash to be a wet noodle filler, but I didn't want it to be our strongest attack either. Blizzard took our QQ about the ability WAY too far.

Different classes are different, and we were one of the first classes (if not THE first, since back in BC) to be told "You're a melee-caster"
Ghostcrawler likes it when one class is the only class to have something: so if we're the only class with a Mastery that boosts melee damage, he'd feel it is a good thing.

And really, a passive damage boost from Mastery...is not the way to encourage Shock rotating. I would prefer to see them encourage that with something akin to what Fulmination does - a talent literally telling us "If you do this, Flame Shock becomes a good idea"
Edited by Matuk on 11/10/2010 3:59 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
1970

It would do the job rather nicely, I feel. As Rouncer has said, it would finally cement our playstyle into the specific niche of 2 slow Agi 1-handers, once and for all. No other change to our spec could truly break it, or suddenly make caster MHs viable, if such a change were made. The Mastery likely would never trump Agility, either, simply because Agility will cause the Melee portion of our Mastery to provide a larger return (as well as the Nature portion, since it would indirectly improve our spell damage).


Caster MH's are a fluke. We shouldn't be using them anyways, normally it would be grouped with an Enhance using daggers or a 2H. Blizzard can find a way to break them easily without having to deal with any of our stats. For example, make "Caster Mace" vs "DPS Mace" and only allowed to use a certain kind in a certain spec. Once you get past the crap that is Caster MH....you are left with a great Mastery.

Your version of Mastery would trump Agility. We would not be getting enough benefit off just the bonus Agility on new gear alone, we would be dependent on the Mastery. It's backwards. We should be strong in our melee as our Agility increases, and our Mastery then tweaks the Elemental damage.



Different classes are different, and we were one of the first classes (if not THE first, since back in BC) to be told "You're a melee-caster"


They are different but every strong melee class has certain passives that ensure they scale well. We should get a passive to weapon damage and a passive to Agility like many other melee classes get. Then our mastery focuses on our niche, the elemental damage. Aren't you the one who said we should have some spell hit like other hybrids? This is probably even more important then the hit.

And really, a passive damage boost from Mastery...is not the way to encourage Shock rotating. I would prefer to see them encourage that with something akin to what Fulmination does - a talent literally telling us "If you do this, Flame Shock becomes a good idea"


It's the best reason we have right now. I would love more of a reason to have FS tick thru our talents but we don't. Looking forward to mastery to help improve it was one of its plus points. If it's just nature then our fire totems and the FS/SF dots will scale poorly.

And again, you will be surprised how much fire and frost damage get thrown around in PVP. That's why Elemental damage is the obvious choice. Shocks are still a prime focus, and thanks to the mastery all strong.....Stormstrike would still get buffed with a Passive.....and serves as a great setup for your other attacks.....and Lava Lash is your biggest hitter. Our Mastery props up our biggest hitter what more can you ask for?
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85 Draenei Shaman
6640
GC responded on the other forum about caster MHs :
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27607452849&sid=1&pageNo=7
Edited by Daedalos on 11/10/2010 4:27 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
13840
GC responded on the other forum about caster MHs :
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27607452849&sid=1&pageNo=7

Well I'm glad he's at least noticed the problem!

Here's hoping he comes up with a solution that doesn't require us to ask for a check-up every new content patch!
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90 Draenei Shaman
13090
There are a lot of other ideas to make us not want to hard cast, and even more to make spell power weapons unattractive.

Shocks and Maelstrom Lightning Bolts could also do a percentage of main hand weapon damage as nature damage. A very large part of the problem here is that our only really meaningful attack that uses our weapon's damage is an off-hand attack, so that frees up our main hand to do whatever benefits the majority of our damage the most. Since Stormstrike hits like a wet noodle and Windfury is only like 10% of our damage, the logical choice is to get as much spell power as possible for that spot considering it gets better the more Mastery we have. Allowing our instant spells to also do weapon damage is a unique way to make spell power weapons obsolete permanently, and will help make our weapon's damage mean a bit more. It's an alternate way to accomplish the same goals that Rouncer's Mastery=nature+melee idea does.

When something like 80% of your damage is not affected at all by your main hand's weapon damage, it causes scaling problems, and stuff like this ends up happening. We just need some reason for our MH weapon damage to mean something.

Elemental Devastation could also stand to be changed to 9% physical damage instead of 9% crit.. yeah, it would negatively impact Flurry uptime, but it would bump up crit in value for us and probably be a slight dps boost.. one that makes us want a physical MH over a spell power MH.
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100 Goblin Shaman
16735
9% is too low. 20% physical damage should be a better value considering lava lash would be losing out on the crit along with the reduced flurry time. Would be a nice change.
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