Caster MHs Return, Ehnc needs tweaking

90 Draenei Shaman
13090
Numbers can be adjusted as needed of course, it's more the change from crit to damage that would fix us.

Edit - and depending on how the physical damage was implemented, if the character sheet read x109% on our weapon damage, it would increase Lava Lash damage.. but I'm not sure we need more damage there.
Edited by Ashunera on 11/11/2010 8:38 PM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
12530
Well I've been reading around with the issue of caster weapons and i figured i would put some thoughts out there about it. I'm really not sure how well these will go over and well, they might be a bit too drastic to be applied at this current point in time.

I feel that enhance shaman are a bit unique with how they do damage, they are a melee spec but most of their damage comes from elemental damage, i would actually like to push this further and be the thing that defines us as the melee spec that does nearly all elemental damage.

I don't really see our low physical damage output as a problem, and my changes reflect doing even less, but still to favor melee weapons.

First i would change WF and SS to both do elemental damage. This would allow them to scale of mastery and have more synergy. My new version of SS and WF would work differently tho.They would read something like this:

Windfury Weapon-
Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks dealing X% of weapon damage modified by your attack power as nature damage.

The damage percentages for this would have to be pretty low to prevent crazy damage output at higher gear level, especially now that it would also scale from mastery.

StormStrike-
Instantly strike an enemy with both weapons, dealing X% weapon damage modified by your attack power as nature damage and granting you an additional 25% chance to critically strike that enemy with your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Shield, and Earth Shock spells for 15 sec.

Same here as WF change. Right now I'm thinking it might be best for neither of these changed abilities to scale with spellpower but be based purely off weapon damage and attack power while still doing elemental damage.

Now, I've kept the percentages as variables because i don't know every single number nor how would this change effect the overall of our dps especially now that WF and SS would now be ignoring armor. I used weapon damage plus attack power so that agility would stay relevant compared to mastery now that both would be doing elemental damage and scale from mastery. With this change mastery scaling would probably also need to be reduced. My idea is actually to push us away from melee damage and more to elemental damage, while keeping things like agi and melee weapons as the best dps choice instead of trying to go for spell power.

I figured i would put this up here and see what some people think. I know this might not go over well but they are some ideas to think about when trying to keep caster weapons out of our dps gearing. This would also make us a bit more unique and more interesting as a melee dps class.

EDIT: Changed SS/WF scaling a bit.
Edited by Trogdoroth on 11/17/2010 3:06 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
Well I've been reading around with the issue of caster weapons and i figured i would put some thoughts out there about it. I'm really not sure how well these will go over and well, they might be a bit too drastic to be applied at this current point in time.

I feel that enhance shaman are a bit unique with how they do damage, they are a melee spec but most of their damage comes from elemental damage, i would actually like to push this further and be the thing that defines us as the melee spec that does nearly all elemental damage.

I don't really see our low physical damage output as a problem, and my changes reflect doing even less, but still to favor melee weapons.

First i would change WF and SS to both do elemental damage. This would allow them to scale of mastery and have more synergy. My new version of SS and WF would work differently tho.They would read something like this:

Windfury Weapon-
Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks dealing X% of weapon damage plus X% of your attack power as nature damage.

The damage percentages for this would have to be pretty low to prevent crazy damage output at higher gear level, especially now that it would also scale from mastery.

StormStrike-
Instantly strike an enemy with both weapons, dealing X% weapon damage plus X% of your attack power as nature damage and granting you an additional 25% chance to critically strike that enemy with your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Shield, and Earth Shock spells for 15 sec.

Same here as WF change. Right now I'm thinking it might be best for neither of these changed abilities to scale with spellpower but be based purely off weapon damage and attack power while still doing elemental damage.

Now, I've kept the percentages as variables because i don't know every single number nor how would this change effect the overall of our dps especially now that WF and SS would now be ignoring armor. I used weapon damage plus attack power so that agility would stay relevant compared to mastery now that both would be doing elemental damage and scale from mastery. With this change mastery scaling would probably also need to be reduced. My idea is actually to push us away from melee damage and more to elemental damage, while keeping things like agi and melee weapons as the best dps choice instead of trying to go for spell power.

I figured i would put this up here and see what some people think. I know this might not go over well but they are some ideas to think about when trying to keep caster weapons out of our dps gearing. This would also make us a bit more unique and more interesting as a melee dps class.

Or you could just change our Mastery to be Melee/Nature, change Searing Flames to come from Flametongue Weapon instead of Searing Totem (this is to ensure we never go WF/WF for any reason), and that changes all of our gearing problems.

I've always seen Enhancement as the ONE and ONLY spec that is a proper hybrid of physical and spell damage. That's what has always made us special.

If they don't change our Mastery to work that way, eventually, one day... maybe not even this expansion...
They will need to band-aid our spec again, to prevent us from wanting Caster MHs. It will happen!
It doesn't matter how much melee scaling they give us from talents, Mastery will always get better, and better, and BETTER. I would just like to avoid band-aid fixes, and fixing our Mastery to represent our actual playstyle seems to be the most efficient way to do that.
Edited by Matuk on 11/17/2010 10:57 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11140
I am not in the beta, nor am I raiding hardmode anything. I do however feel the effects of the changes and it's time for the developers to just read our concerns.

I have liked the OP and sent in a report tagged as other with the suggestion that the developers come and read this thread and all the concerns laid out here.

Enhancement needs a fix, not a band-aid and a kiss on the boo-boo saying that it'll all be fine.
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
I am not in the beta, nor am I raiding hardmode anything. I do however feel the effects of the changes and it's time for the developers to just read our concerns.

I have liked the OP and sent in a report tagged as other with the suggestion that the developers come and read this thread and all the concerns laid out here.

Enhancement needs a fix, not a band-aid and a kiss on the boo-boo saying that it'll all be fine.

Well they have acknowledged both that Enhancement DPS seems too low, and that they don't want us using Caster MHs, AND that they don't want us using Lava Burst in our rotation.

However, it's been several beta builds since those statements have been made, and I've yet to see any changes made to our spec that actually addresses those level 85 issues.
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85 Tauren Shaman
4255
i quite enjoy using a caster MH, making my lavaburst and chain lightning hit hard aswell as lava lash. Obviously most people dont, but im all for this change more towards a REAL hybrid of a caster/melee class.
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85 Orc Shaman
12530

Or you could just change our Mastery to be Melee/Nature, change Searing Flames to come from Flametongue Weapon instead of Searing Totem (this is to ensure we never go WF/WF for any reason), and that changes all of our gearing problems.

I've always seen Enhancement as the ONE and ONLY spec that is a proper hybrid of physical and spell damage. That's what has always made us special.

If they don't change our Mastery to work that way, eventually, one day... maybe not even this expansion...
They will need to band-aid our spec again, to prevent us from wanting Caster MHs. It will happen!
It doesn't matter how much melee scaling they give us from talents, Mastery will always get better, and better, and BETTER. I would just like to avoid band-aid fixes, and fixing our Mastery to represent our actual playstyle seems to be the most efficient way to do that.


The issue is not that we need more melee damage tho. Its that we don't want to use caster MH's. If there is no need to be doing a lot of melee damage why should we try and force it on the class?

Blizzard would never change searing flames to come off flametoung, they like the synergy with ST and I'm guessing they really want to keep it.

I kinda now think that in my new versions of WF and SS, instead of adding attack power to damage, attack power would modify the % of weapon damage done.
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680

Or you could just change our Mastery to be Melee/Nature, change Searing Flames to come from Flametongue Weapon instead of Searing Totem (this is to ensure we never go WF/WF for any reason), and that changes all of our gearing problems.

I've always seen Enhancement as the ONE and ONLY spec that is a proper hybrid of physical and spell damage. That's what has always made us special.

If they don't change our Mastery to work that way, eventually, one day... maybe not even this expansion...
They will need to band-aid our spec again, to prevent us from wanting Caster MHs. It will happen!
It doesn't matter how much melee scaling they give us from talents, Mastery will always get better, and better, and BETTER. I would just like to avoid band-aid fixes, and fixing our Mastery to represent our actual playstyle seems to be the most efficient way to do that.


The issue is not that we need more melee damage tho. Its that we don't want to use caster MH's. If there is no need to be doing a lot of melee damage why should we try and force it on the class?

Blizzard would never change searing flames to come off flametoung, they like the synergy with ST and I'm guessing they really want to keep it.

I kinda now think that in my new versions of WF and SS, instead of adding attack power to damage, attack power would modify the % of weapon damage done.

There is plenty of need to be doing a lot of melee damage. It's part of the style of Enhancement that we're both physical AND spells.

If I wanted to roll a "spell knight" I would have rolled Frost DK.
Edited by Matuk on 11/17/2010 2:13 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Shaman
5885

The issue is not that we need more melee damage tho. Its that we don't want to use caster MH's. If there is no need to be doing a lot of melee damage why should we try and force it on the class?


Actually, the issue is both. Our melee damage is low and scales extremely badly compared to our spell damage; and overall damage is low compared to everyone else and will only get lower as gear improves and the bad melee scaling drags down our overall damage.
Edited by Majika on 11/17/2010 2:17 PM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
12530

Or you could just change our Mastery to be Melee/Nature, change Searing Flames to come from Flametongue Weapon instead of Searing Totem (this is to ensure we never go WF/WF for any reason), and that changes all of our gearing problems.

I've always seen Enhancement as the ONE and ONLY spec that is a proper hybrid of physical and spell damage. That's what has always made us special.

If they don't change our Mastery to work that way, eventually, one day... maybe not even this expansion...
They will need to band-aid our spec again, to prevent us from wanting Caster MHs. It will happen!
It doesn't matter how much melee scaling they give us from talents, Mastery will always get better, and better, and BETTER. I would just like to avoid band-aid fixes, and fixing our Mastery to represent our actual playstyle seems to be the most efficient way to do that.


The issue is not that we need more melee damage tho. Its that we don't want to use caster MH's. If there is no need to be doing a lot of melee damage why should we try and force it on the class?

Blizzard would never change searing flames to come off flametoung, they like the synergy with ST and I'm guessing they really want to keep it.

I kinda now think that in my new versions of WF and SS, instead of adding attack power to damage, attack power would modify the % of weapon damage done.

There is plenty of need to be doing a lot of melee damage. It's part of the style of Enhancement that we're both physical AND spells.

If I wanted to roll a "spell knight" I would have rolled Frost DK.


Our damage split now really says otherwise. So it's silly to still buff melee damage "just because we do it", nor is it interesting to just tack on melee damage to our mastery. Unless I'm mistake we do higher spell damage than frost DK's already so you already are playing the most spell damage melee class, why not just push it further and have that be our thing?
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85 Orc Shaman
12530

The issue is not that we need more melee damage tho. Its that we don't want to use caster MH's. If there is no need to be doing a lot of melee damage why should we try and force it on the class?


Actually, the issue is both. Our melee damage is low and scales extremely badly compared to our spell damage; and overall damage is low compared to everyone else and will only get lower as gear improves and the bad melee scaling drags down our overall damage.


Since our melee damage is already low and scales poorly we don't need it imo. That's why I've suggested the changes i did. It would give us more damage and scaling while doing away with the low melee damage that is a scaling issue.

I just don't see any reason to keep melee damage a high % of our dps. Someone else said it in this thread i believe, it does not matter where our damage comes from as long as we do competitive damage. I just don't believe that we NEED melee damage to do our thing.
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680

Or you could just change our Mastery to be Melee/Nature, change Searing Flames to come from Flametongue Weapon instead of Searing Totem (this is to ensure we never go WF/WF for any reason), and that changes all of our gearing problems.

I've always seen Enhancement as the ONE and ONLY spec that is a proper hybrid of physical and spell damage. That's what has always made us special.

If they don't change our Mastery to work that way, eventually, one day... maybe not even this expansion...
They will need to band-aid our spec again, to prevent us from wanting Caster MHs. It will happen!
It doesn't matter how much melee scaling they give us from talents, Mastery will always get better, and better, and BETTER. I would just like to avoid band-aid fixes, and fixing our Mastery to represent our actual playstyle seems to be the most efficient way to do that.


The issue is not that we need more melee damage tho. Its that we don't want to use caster MH's. If there is no need to be doing a lot of melee damage why should we try and force it on the class?

Blizzard would never change searing flames to come off flametoung, they like the synergy with ST and I'm guessing they really want to keep it.

I kinda now think that in my new versions of WF and SS, instead of adding attack power to damage, attack power would modify the % of weapon damage done.

There is plenty of need to be doing a lot of melee damage. It's part of the style of Enhancement that we're both physical AND spells.

If I wanted to roll a "spell knight" I would have rolled Frost DK.


Our damage split now really says otherwise. So it's silly to still buff melee damage "just because we do it", nor is it interesting to just tack on melee damage to our mastery. Unless I'm mistake we do higher spell damage than frost DK's already so you already are playing the most spell damage melee class, why not just push it further and have that be our thing?

We don't. Frost DKs far out-dps us, and 40%+ of their damage done is Howling Blast.

Our damage split now is a result of the devs never knowing wtf they're doing with our spec, and never considering the consequences of the changes they make ahead of time. This is not a direction very many Shaman want the spec to go, because this completely redefines what our spec has been about, whereas the changes the devs have been making to all the classes, have been done with the INTENT of improving on what our specs are about.


The issue is not that we need more melee damage tho. Its that we don't want to use caster MH's. If there is no need to be doing a lot of melee damage why should we try and force it on the class?


Actually, the issue is both. Our melee damage is low and scales extremely badly compared to our spell damage; and overall damage is low compared to everyone else and will only get lower as gear improves and the bad melee scaling drags down our overall damage.


Since our melee damage is already low and scales poorly we don't need it imo. That's why I've suggested the changes i did. It would give us more damage and scaling while doing away with the low melee damage that is a scaling issue.

I just don't see any reason to keep melee damage a high % of our dps. Someone else said it in this thread i believe, it does not matter where our damage comes from as long as we do competitive damage. I just don't believe that we NEED melee damage to do our thing.

Technically neither do Warriors. They could easily turn all of their damage into "fake" melee and have it actually be some sort of spell damage. If you start saying things like that, we may as well change Elemental Shaman to deal all physical damage and say "I don't believe we NEED spell damage to do our thing."

You could design Warriors to Heal and Rogues to Tank, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should. I don't want to be redesigned to deal only spell damage, because then what reason do I actually have to be in melee range other than for MW procs?


What has kept me loving this spec all these years is because Blizzard has succeeded in keeping us at a nice balance of physical and spell, even if most of that physical did come from auto attack damage.
I would prefer they do not completely redefine what our spec is, and instead fix the problems that are plaguing it and slowly pushing it AWAY from what our spec is.
Edited by Matuk on 11/17/2010 2:53 PM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
12530

You could design Warriors to Heal and Rogues to Tank, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should. I don't want to be redesigned to deal only spell damage, because then what reason do I actually have to be in melee range other than for MW procs?


What has kept me loving this spec all these years is because Blizzard has succeeded in keeping us at a nice balance of physical and spell, even if most of that physical did come from auto attack damage.
I would prefer they do not completely redefine what our spec is, and instead fix the problems that are plaguing it and slowly pushing it AWAY from what our spec is.


I'm sure the devs know what they are doing with are spec, just because it doesn't mesh with what has been or what you imagine as it does not mean they don't know what they are doing, there's no point to bring that up.

It seem you still aren't understanding You saying what reason do you have to be in melee range for anything other than MW procs shows that you don't understand the changes I'm suggesting. Almost all of our attacks would still be melee attacks but do nature damage (ES,WF,SS) or fire (LL,FS). Most of those are still melee attacks, and we would still be a melee class we just would not do that much physical damage besides our white swings.

It wouldn't even be redefining what our spec is but just letting it go where its already headed. Mastery will increase our elemental damage, we are already going to be scaling more with that than our physical damage why don't we just go with it instead of hanging on to an old tradition of melee has to do tons of physical.
Edited by Trogdoroth on 11/17/2010 3:17 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680

You could design Warriors to Heal and Rogues to Tank, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should. I don't want to be redesigned to deal only spell damage, because then what reason do I actually have to be in melee range other than for MW procs?


What has kept me loving this spec all these years is because Blizzard has succeeded in keeping us at a nice balance of physical and spell, even if most of that physical did come from auto attack damage.
I would prefer they do not completely redefine what our spec is, and instead fix the problems that are plaguing it and slowly pushing it AWAY from what our spec is.


I'm sure the devs know what they are doing with are spec, just because it doesn't mesh with what has been or what you imagine as it does not mean they don't know what they are doing, there's no point to bring that up.

It seem you still aren't understanding You saying what reason do you have to be in melee range for anything other than MW procs shows that you don't understand the changes I'm suggesting. Almost all of our attacks would still be melee attacks but do nature damage (ES,WF,SS) or fire (LL,FS). Most of those are still melee attacks, and we would still be a melee class we just would not do that much physical damage besides our white swings.

It wouldn't even be redefining what our spec is but just letting it go where its already headed. Mastery will increase our elemental damage, we are already going to be scaling more with that than our physical damage why don't we just go with it instead of hanging on to an old tradition of melee has to do tons of physical.

Because casters already do plenty of spell damage without having to send somebody in melee to screw it up.

We would essentially be where Ret Pallies were for all of Wrath. Large amounts of their damage came from Holy, and it really did not work out well. They have since given Ret Pallies more of a direction towards physical attacks, because they did too much Holy damage.

Giving us 100% spell damage would be like giving Warriors 100% Armor Pen back.

And yes, it would be a complete redesign of how our spec works.
Edited by Matuk on 11/17/2010 3:43 PM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
12530

Because casters already do plenty of spell damage without having to send somebody in melee to screw it up.

We would essentially be where Ret Pallies were for all of Wrath. Large amounts of their damage came from Holy, and it really did not work out well. They have since given Ret Pallies more of a direction towards physical attacks, because they did too much with Holy.

Giving us 100% spell damage would be like giving Warriors 100% Armor Pen back.

And yes, it would be a complete redesign of how our spec works.


How would it "screw it up". And explain how it would be a complete redesign of how our spec works, changing 2 abilities to scale slightly differently is not a complete redesign. Everything else besides a few numbers to tweak would be the same.
Edited by Trogdoroth on 11/17/2010 3:48 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
I was thinking for these problems they could instead of having WF be an imbue they finally could just make it a talent point in the Enhancement tree. Then adjust the raiding game to RB/FT and the pvp game to FB/FT. We wouldn't lose so much damage in pvp this way to. That would boost our melee and they could lower our spells a little.
Edited by Snuglsanhugs on 11/17/2010 4:06 PM PST
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85 Troll Priest
3245
Since our melee damage is already low and scales poorly we don't need it imo. That's why I've suggested the changes i did. It would give us more damage and scaling while doing away with the low melee damage that is a scaling issue.

I just don't see any reason to keep melee damage a high % of our dps. Someone else said it in this thread i believe, it does not matter where our damage comes from as long as we do competitive damage. I just don't believe that we NEED melee damage to do our thing.


Actually the source does matter. After early Wrath Ret the devs saw how too high magical dmg on a melee spec can imbalance pvp. I doubt its the devs intent for any melee to do 70%+ magical dmg, and they wouldn't adopt a defeatist attitude as reason for axing the physical dmg portion either.

That and too much magical dmg leaves one in an odd place in groups, esp 5/10-mans, where Enh is the only melee that wants a caster-heavy make-up to do competitive dps. Being in that position just seems illogical to me.


We don't. Frost DKs far out-dps us, and 40%+ of their damage done is Howling Blast.


Actually here's some sparkly-sunshiny good news: That's not the case in beta atm 8) My Enh premie does about 500-800 more dps on raid dummies than my Frost DK premie, moreso when comparing to 2her Frost over DW. Keeping in mind Rime was bugged when I was testing, consuming any avail death rune when it shouldn't. Raid buffs/debuffs will equalize them more, but there's no longer a notable gap. Where DKs are OP atm is aoe, and that's where HB gets over the top (avg on 4 targets I find is about 15-17k, and ENh falls in this range if magma uptime is good; frost DKs do about 19-21k in the same scenario.. yea). Also, FS and OB + white hits will be frost's highest dmg portions on single-tagert, not HB (unless the DK is doing it wrong).

(sry if I seem nitpicky; DK is my 'second main'; possibly new main in cata)

As of yesterday the caster MH issue and FT being too high are still around, as far as I can tell. Nature/physical mastery and stronger SS and MW over weaker LL, and fixed aoe (not dps, mechanics) would feel so good right now. We'd be in great shape for Cata, then.

edited now that test realms up again to see recounts
Edited by Rihk on 11/17/2010 10:45 PM PST
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85 Orc Shaman
12530


Actually the source does matter. After early Wrath Ret the devs saw how too high magical dmg on a melee spec can imbalance pvp. I doubt its the devs intent for any melee to do 70%+ magical dmg, and they wouldn't adopt a defeatist attitude as reason for axing the physical dmg portion either.


You make valid points but i have to ask, If (after all damage reducing things are applied, like armor, resiliance, etc) SS hits for lets say 2k phisical for simple numbers. If you change it to the way i suggested it, not scaling from spell power mind you so sp buffs would not help these abilities like they don't help now, and after all damage reducing things are applied it still hits for 2k, just now as nature damage, whats the difference?

I'm not saying just make it nature and keep it how it is, that would be op because of the armor ignore.

As for the group synergy its also a valid point, but as i said in my inital post, they would not scale from SP type buffs but rather from weapon damage and attack power, which would mean you would want the same buffs as you would now in terms of group buffs.
Edited by Trogdoroth on 11/17/2010 5:20 PM PST
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85 Troll Priest
3245
Well, if that's the case- asking for a mechanics redesign and re-balancing of the class's physical dmg, which is still quite significant atm, then the answer to that is even simpler: the devs already have a viable system in place w/ a few inevitable kinks (one of these being the caster MH problem) and getting them to rework and re-balance as you are asking and in good time for Cata is as likely as any of us having a hot gamer chick for a gf irl.

It would be a more efficient use of their time to work out the kinks than to ask them to change how a few key abilities scale and then have to re-troubleshoot to make sure its all working as intended and is balanced for all their planned tiers of gear. Going through and embracing a design where SS and WF are nature means they also gotta re-balance our mastery and hence our other stats, since they don't want any secondary stat to fall too far behind or ahead. Judging by how hard it is for them to balance mastery across 30 specs, I wouldn't expect too much atm.

Not saying your system couldn't work, but if it goes against the dev's intention for the spec (and based on GC's few replies on the caster MH issue, one could say it does) and also causes them more work than normal, then I wouldn't expect it to happen anytime soon.
Edited by Rihk on 11/17/2010 11:16 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
is as likely as any of us having a hot gamer chick for a gf irl.

Bad example, I'm living proof.

I agree with the rest.



A big part of the reason I still am in support of Rouncer's original suggestion of changing Mastery into Melee/Nature, and of the Thunder Shock AoE, is because that would just be the simplest way to fix the majority of our main concerns, and it would not require major rebalancing or number tweaking.

We would still have problems, but our playstyle would be 100% cemented and bound in iron as a class using slow Agi 1-handers, dealing a hybrid mix of physical and spell damage.
Edited by Matuk on 11/17/2010 11:54 PM PST
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