Caster MHs Return, Ehnc needs tweaking

100 Goblin Shaman
15580
is as likely as any of us having a hot gamer chick for a gf irl.

Bad example, I'm living proof.


She ever tell you to go make her a sammich?

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1939725
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85 Draenei Shaman
6640
is as likely as any of us having a hot gamer chick for a gf irl.

Bad example, I'm living proof.


She ever tell you to go make her a sammich?

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1939725


ROFL, video was amazing!

My wife always tells me to go make dinner, is that the same thing?
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
No, the simplest way is still to buff the living hell out of Stormstrike and nerf Mastery. Then eventually make imbues unique. The closer we get to release, the less likely a Mastery overhaul is. If they were actually willing to overhaul Masteries, I can think of a few other specs who could use that much more than Enhancement.. Combat Rogue comes to mind.
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85 Draenei Shaman
6640
Rouncer said on the EJ forums that they basically nerfed the hell out of the dps and damage ranges of the caster mainhands, which is pretty much what I expected them to do rather than tweak our skills.

I wouldn't expect SS and Focused Strikes to get buffs until we are at least raiding the first tier of content, and that is if they even seen a reason to do so. Oh well, no AOE from me other than MW5 chain lightnings, would have been nice if they looked-at/gotten-rid-of that terrible fire nova ability and its lack of synergy with searing totem.
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90 Gnome Mage
9585
Rouncer said on the EJ forums that they basically nerfed the hell out of the dps and damage ranges of the caster mainhands, which is pretty much what I expected them to do rather than tweak our skills.

I wouldn't expect SS and Focused Strikes to get buffs until we are at least raiding the first tier of content, and that is if they even seen a reason to do so. Oh well, no AOE from me other than MW5 chain lightnings, would have been nice if they looked-at/gotten-rid-of that terrible fire nova ability and its lack of synergy with searing totem.


I pretty much stopped using magma/fire nova completely unless I am soloing. It is pointless, it's weak as hell and cumbersome to boot.
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
Makes a sort of sense. Probably easier to screw with the caster weapons themselves. It seems like a slight cop-out though because it still leaves the core of the problem, and that is Mastery is too strong while physical damage is too weak. Oh well, whatever, I guess they'll get around to changing it if we get to the point of gemming Mastery almost exclusively.

I suppose it's time to go back to debating our crappy AoE, elemental cooldowns, and PvP issues.
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85 Draenei Shaman
6640
Makes a sort of sense. Probably easier to screw with the caster weapons themselves. It seems like a slight cop-out though because it still leaves the core of the problem, and that is Mastery is too strong while physical damage is too weak. Oh well, whatever, I guess they'll get around to changing it if we get to the point of gemming Mastery almost exclusively.

I suppose it's time to go back to debating our crappy AoE, elemental cooldowns, and PvP issues.


I imagine that is exactly when they change something, when we don't gem ANY agility, and full mastery. Because they are supposed to have near equal values right? I guess Mastery for us is like Str for DKs.

Crappy AOE and un-synergistic elemental cooldowns I can get behind, don't really know about PVP problems at 85 other than having to hope searing totem hits our current target.

Can't wait to trololololol with Spiritwalkers + Lava burst while running towards my target after hitting them with unleash flame.
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
PvP - No Strength of Earth, no scaling Stoneclaw glyph, and still too reliant on wolves, to name a few.
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100 Goblin Shaman
15580
Makes a sort of sense. Probably easier to screw with the caster weapons themselves. It seems like a slight cop-out though because it still leaves the core of the problem, and that is Mastery is too strong while physical damage is too weak. Oh well, whatever, I guess they'll get around to changing it if we get to the point of gemming Mastery almost exclusively.

I suppose it's time to go back to debating our crappy AoE, elemental cooldowns, and PvP issues.


Problem is that those values that we obtained for Caster Mainhands matching Agility Weapons was done with the caster weapons running ~2-242 damage (53.1 dps from what I can recall). Sure they were 2.3 speed but limiting all caster weapons to 1.6 speed or lower just feels way too heavy handed. Also I'm sure something will slip through or the amount of spellpower on those weapons will just be so high that along with our mastery it will still manage to edge out the agility options.

Buff the living crap out of Stormstrike and then they are gone for the expansion. Then use our mastery as it was intended and nerf the value till our dps is where the developers intend. From the other thread the math showed that buffing the base damage of Stormstrike to 200% and Focused Strikes up to 60% along with nerfing our mastery to 2% per point effectively canceled each other out leaving our overall dps the same. So that seems like a great place to start and then buff (or nerf) the mastery as needed at level 85.

Our mastery is much too high in value already. No rating, except for uncapped hit and expertise, should have more value then our primary stat. Except ours is damn close already and will be higher in value by the end of the first tier of raiding. It's really not a good place to start off with a new stat and it should be accounted for in whatever they decide to do.
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97 Tauren Shaman
12875
Makes a sort of sense. Probably easier to screw with the caster weapons themselves. It seems like a slight cop-out though because it still leaves the core of the problem, and that is Mastery is too strong while physical damage is too weak. Oh well, whatever, I guess they'll get around to changing it if we get to the point of gemming Mastery almost exclusively.

I suppose it's time to go back to debating our crappy AoE, elemental cooldowns, and PvP issues.


Problem is that those values that we obtained for Caster Mainhands matching Agility Weapons was done with the caster weapons running ~2-242 damage (53.1 dps from what I can recall). Sure they were 2.3 speed but limiting all caster weapons to 1.6 speed or lower just feels way too heavy handed. Also I'm sure something will slip through or the amount of spellpower on those weapons will just be so high that along with our mastery it will still manage to edge out the agility options.

Buff the living crap out of Stormstrike and then they are gone for the expansion. Then use our mastery as it was intended and nerf the value till our dps is where the developers intend. From the other thread the math showed that buffing the base damage of Stormstrike to 200% and Focused Strikes up to 60% along with nerfing our mastery to 2% per point effectively canceled each other out leaving our overall dps the same. So that seems like a great place to start and then buff (or nerf) the mastery as needed at level 85.

Our mastery is much too high in value already. No rating, except for uncapped hit and expertise, should have more value then our primary stat. Except ours is damn close already and will be higher in value by the end of the first tier of raiding. It's really not a good place to start off with a new stat and it should be accounted for in whatever they decide to do.

I'm actually starting to wonder...

If Caster MHs right now are better than slow AGI weps. What about Ele gear?
Or would that hurt Lava Lash too much?
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
Intellect doesn't have the same scaling power as the weapons do

Makes a sort of sense. Probably easier to screw with the caster weapons themselves. It seems like a slight cop-out though because it still leaves the core of the problem, and that is Mastery is too strong while physical damage is too weak. Oh well, whatever, I guess they'll get around to changing it if we get to the point of gemming Mastery almost exclusively.

I suppose it's time to go back to debating our crappy AoE, elemental cooldowns, and PvP issues.


Problem is that those values that we obtained for Caster Mainhands matching Agility Weapons was done with the caster weapons running ~2-242 damage (53.1 dps from what I can recall). Sure they were 2.3 speed but limiting all caster weapons to 1.6 speed or lower just feels way too heavy handed. Also I'm sure something will slip through or the amount of spellpower on those weapons will just be so high that along with our mastery it will still manage to edge out the agility options.

Buff the living crap out of Stormstrike and then they are gone for the expansion. Then use our mastery as it was intended and nerf the value till our dps is where the developers intend. From the other thread the math showed that buffing the base damage of Stormstrike to 200% and Focused Strikes up to 60% along with nerfing our mastery to 2% per point effectively canceled each other out leaving our overall dps the same. So that seems like a great place to start and then buff (or nerf) the mastery as needed at level 85.

Our mastery is much too high in value already. No rating, except for uncapped hit and expertise, should have more value then our primary stat. Except ours is damn close already and will be higher in value by the end of the first tier of raiding. It's really not a good place to start off with a new stat and it should be accounted for in whatever they decide to do.

I'm actually starting to wonder...

If Caster MHs right now are better than slow AGI weps. What about Ele gear?
Or would that hurt Lava Lash too much?


Intellect doesn't have near the same scaling power to make it an issue.

Think about it. The amount of Intellect on an item the same ilvl versus the amount of Agility is equal.

Comparing 372 Heroic gear, an axe and a caster dagger both have 165 Int/Agi, respectively. It's the fact that the dagger has 2200 Spellpower that tips the balance.
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97 Tauren Shaman
12875
Intellect doesn't have the same scaling power as the weapons do

Makes a sort of sense. Probably easier to screw with the caster weapons themselves. It seems like a slight cop-out though because it still leaves the core of the problem, and that is Mastery is too strong while physical damage is too weak. Oh well, whatever, I guess they'll get around to changing it if we get to the point of gemming Mastery almost exclusively.

I suppose it's time to go back to debating our crappy AoE, elemental cooldowns, and PvP issues.


Problem is that those values that we obtained for Caster Mainhands matching Agility Weapons was done with the caster weapons running ~2-242 damage (53.1 dps from what I can recall). Sure they were 2.3 speed but limiting all caster weapons to 1.6 speed or lower just feels way too heavy handed. Also I'm sure something will slip through or the amount of spellpower on those weapons will just be so high that along with our mastery it will still manage to edge out the agility options.

Buff the living crap out of Stormstrike and then they are gone for the expansion. Then use our mastery as it was intended and nerf the value till our dps is where the developers intend. From the other thread the math showed that buffing the base damage of Stormstrike to 200% and Focused Strikes up to 60% along with nerfing our mastery to 2% per point effectively canceled each other out leaving our overall dps the same. So that seems like a great place to start and then buff (or nerf) the mastery as needed at level 85.

Our mastery is much too high in value already. No rating, except for uncapped hit and expertise, should have more value then our primary stat. Except ours is damn close already and will be higher in value by the end of the first tier of raiding. It's really not a good place to start off with a new stat and it should be accounted for in whatever they decide to do.

I'm actually starting to wonder...

If Caster MHs right now are better than slow AGI weps. What about Ele gear?
Or would that hurt Lava Lash too much?


Intellect doesn't have near the same scaling power to make it an issue.

Think about it. The amount of Intellect on an item the same ilvl versus the amount of Agility is equal.

Comparing 372 Heroic gear, an axe and a caster dagger both have 165 Int/Agi, respectively. It's the fact that the dagger has 2200 Spellpower that tips the balance.

Hrm. Could it be that balance-tipping 2200 Spellpower could be what's causing casters to be insanely good right now, as well?

Either they need to put a *!#%ton of AP on weps for us too, or they need to nerf how much SP gets on those weapons, imo.
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
Could be. But the reason the weapons have so much Spellpower is because Blizzard wanted weapon upgrades to matter to casters as much as they matter to melee. If the weapons had no Spellpower, then they wouldn't matter nearly as much.

No, they don't need to nerf the weapons.. they just need to use their tuning knobs!
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80 Draenei Shaman
5270
Hmm, with white damage and wf damage being even less of a big deal in pvp I wonder if caster/melee fb/ft setup would work even with the speed nerf. Just gemming straight mastery instead of agi if the pve values are as close as you say.

Note this is only in pvp.
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90 Tauren Shaman
16955
Here's some parses for you guys to play with since Rouncer is making me post them:

11/09 - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h1qhz3pszwjnymem/sum/damageDone/?s=3931&e=4043
11/02 - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yximk6r5pfv05pre/sum/damageDone/?s=3612&e=3716
10/26 - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-gxpd6dafs2xhp1e1/sum/damageDone/?s=2901&e=3023

The 10/26 parse is using 2x 284 axes with WF/FT
The 11/02 parse is using 277 Trauma MH + 284 axe OH with FT/FT
The 11/09 parse is using 277 Trauma MH + 284 axe OH with FT/FT and LvB filler with LvB glyph

Using the caster MH at least felt like a damage increase before I even checked the parses and they seem to at least show it's possible to be competitive with the usual 2x 284 axes with WF/FT. Just picked up a 284 Royal Scepter last night, so will be trying out more shenanigans with that.
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100 Goblin Shaman
15580
So a 1.8 speed caster mace that has no dps stats outside of spellpower and a single yellow socket is showing pretty much the exact same performance to what should be our BiS MH weapon. Seven ilevels between the two items too. Even worse is that the caster one felt like a damage increase to Koushirou. Probably because, outside of Lava Lash, all our big numbers are coming from spells.

We'll make sure Enhancement doesn't want to use caster weapons. That's not the sort of thing we are likely to just sit back and let happen.

So it's happening, when will we get to know how likely it is that you will fix it?
Edited by Rouncer on 11/18/2010 11:08 PM PST
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97 Tauren Shaman
12875
So a 1.8 speed caster mace that has no dps stats outside of spellpower and a single yellow socket is showing pretty much the exact same performance to what should be our BiS MH weapon. Seven ilevels between the two items too. Even worse is that the caster one felt like a damage increase to Koushirou. Probably because, outside of Lava Lash, all our big numbers are coming from spells.

We'll make sure Enhancement doesn't want to use caster weapons. That's not the sort of thing we are likely to just sit back and let happen.

So it's happening, when will we get to know how likely it is that you will fix it?

I've been wondering that for some time.

Ever since that post, I've been sitting and watching MMO-Champ like a HAWK, just waiting to see what changes are done about this, while discussing with other forum folk (and my guildies) about the issues our spec is having. So far all I've seen is a buff to Healing Rains. :|
Edited by Matuk on 11/18/2010 11:34 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Shaman
12170
So a 1.8 speed caster mace that has no dps stats outside of spellpower and a single yellow socket is showing pretty much the exact same performance to what should be our BiS MH weapon. Seven ilevels between the two items too. Even worse is that the caster one felt like a damage increase to Koushirou. Probably because, outside of Lava Lash, all our big numbers are coming from spells.

We'll make sure Enhancement doesn't want to use caster weapons. That's not the sort of thing we are likely to just sit back and let happen.

So it's happening, when will we get to know how likely it is that you will fix it?


good question.

its been really slow the last week. being so close to release makes me wonder if they are going to address the problems and fix them or put a band-aid on it.

Same question for our aoe, or lack of. These 2 problems i thought would get a high amount of attention.

id be very disappointed.
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85 Troll Priest
3245
To be fair, the fight length in the FT/FT caster MH non-LvB parse is sig shorter than the one w/ the reg WF/FT melee setup. Still, its most telling that not only is FT outdoing WF on MH when wpn speeds aren't matched, but that the damn caster wpn is an ilvl set behind and 1.8 speed. Wow, just.. that last part w/ the wpn speed blows my mind esp. Its not as bad at 85 from what I've tested, but damn..

Well, if there's any indication that Enh's melee portion needs a big bump, this is it. I'll gladly trade some damage from LL and FT for that.
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