Am I expecting too much from my other healers

10 Troll Monk
Let me start off by saying that I am posting on a smurf because I don't want to cause any drama with my raid group/guild.

My healer is a 540 Shaman. I heal with a 535 Holy Paladin, and a pug healer (usually) on our Thursday raid of SoO normal 10m. Last night it was a 530 Shaman from our guild that hasn't done much raiding in the last month or so, didn't clear ToT with us.

I was so frustrated last night after 3 hours of raiding, that I wanted to just uninstall. (Temporary nerd rage)

We started the night off at Norushen, after a few attempts I noticed a trend, the shaman was either wasting his cds, or not using them. I mentioned to him a couple of things that I noticed, specifically that he didn't use ascendance one time in 4 attempts. Neither did he use stormlash totem, spirit link, or spirit walkers grace.

I also reminded him on vent to keep his earth shield up on the other tank, and since we are stacked up to make sure healing rain is always down. He simply ignored me.

That I can deal with, because despite all this, he was still healing more than our paladin.

I don't even know where to start with this guy. He joined our group/guild after we had ToT on farm. He came in, under geared, and I carried him through the fights (our disc priest we had at the time was also quite geared). I didn't have a problem with this at the time, I don't mind helping players get gear, he's healing style was weird, but he said he was working on it. He has used lay on hands once since he's been with us, back in ToT when he was standing in green pools on ji kun. Zero raid awareness, slow to learn, and his reaction time is atrocious.

Now that we are trying to do progression in SoO, our disc had to start playing his druid so that we had the dps for Norushens enrage timer. I simply cannot carry two healers through any more bosses. We've managed to get 4/14 so far, but galakras is a wall because I'm at 180Kish hps, paladin is at 50k and our other healer (in this case the shaman) was at 75-80k on several attempts. Our best attempt puts them higher, and me slightly lower, which is how it should be I think, all 3 healers equally pushing healing to the max.

Our best attempt on Galakras was 6:20, I looked at the logs this morning and here are the numbers.

Me: 161799.8 hps(e)
Paladin: 67931.4 hps(e)
Shaman: 84964.9 hps(e)

I don't feel like I can confront them about it, since I'm not an officer and I'm not the raid leader. I just was wondering if anyone has any ideas with how I can handle this situation. I don't know if the RL will do anything, becuase both of these healers are his friends.

Also I don't want to find another group to raid with, because 7/9 of them are great people who I cleared ToT with, who I've come to respect and enjoy playing with.

TLDR; I don't know how to approach the issue of significantly outhealing the other 2, and am just looking for input that may help me.

Thank you so much for sticking with the thread, I appreciate you all!
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90 Night Elf Priest
I'm not a raid leader or officer either. But in our 25 I raid with another priest. A priest who never used light well. And on fights that are short he outheals me. But on bosses that we down he is in dead last (he uses all his stuff before the big damage comes out). So I will tell him what to do. Or bring up issues because I know priests and our officers don't.

If he doesn't listen to me. I tell the officer/raid leader what I've noticed and why even though he is almost same ilvl as me is dead last while I am top three (top three healers pull over 100k, he pulls about 60-80k). There have been numerous times I have to tell the other priests what 90 talent to use. Well it's a stacking fight so which talent is op?

So that way when they talk to him about it they can say more then just we noticed your healing is low. In a couple of cases they brought us into vent and how me tell another healer how to play.

Just be nice about it. And if he is ignoring you or isn't improving. Talk yo an officer or RL.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
Pretty much what Rhias said.
Talk to your co-healer(s) and find out what is going wrong and what can be done to fix it.
If the player doesn't address the issues, talk to the Raid Leader and let him know what is happening.
If the Raid Leader refuses to address the issues, escalate it to the GM.

I would suggest posting logs so we can help you identify issues, but I understand your want for privacy.

If nothing gets done, the RL is putting their friends above the good of the team and so the team WILL fail. I've seen it happen before, and I was in your shoes on two different occasions. One time the RL refused to do anything so I left the team, this was with a HPal who was pulling 15-20k HPS in MSV and dying early in every fight. We never got past Elegon because I couldn't solo heal the whole fight. The other time I had a similar situation, the RL actually counseled his own brother and told him to shape up or leave the team. That group went on to get 8/8H DS once the RL's brother shaped up.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
I agree with what everyone says...could be communication issues....could be that they know you'll cover it or they see your heals covering everything so they feel they don't have to do as much..or it could be just poor play and awareness.

The laziness I don't think there is an excuse for...or the ignorance. if the RL doesn't do anything, there's nothing you can do and that's sad. If someone can't take advice, then they shouldn't be raiding. If you're saying it nicely there's no reason to not listen.

Without logs and things, I don't think anyone can pinpoint where the actual bad play is coming into play or why their HPS is so low compared to yours but like they said I understand privacy. Nobody wants themselves torn apart.
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90 Night Elf Druid
Bear in mind that logs for galakras in particular may still be broken, showing only the burn phase after the boss lands, and not the whole thing before that.

If you have tried talking to the shaman already and they refuse to change, it's time to go to your raid leader with your concern. Be polite, and have actual proof like logs that indicate poor use of class mechanics.

Raise your concerns about the paladin as well, or speak to a paladin class leader if you have such things. I personally would never try to analyze paladin logs because I know nooooothing about paladins.
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90 Night Elf Druid
People who don't read their class guides and follow advice to improve their contribution can stick to LFR.

Find a new healer.

If your raid leader or healing officer is not addressing this issue, find a new raid group. IWe may all be friendly in vent, but in the end we are friends to meet an end in raiding. Some people just don't admit that. Being in wow for several years and going through several different guild break ups, server moves, you can't deny that. Very few people have I really kept in contact with outside of WoW.

If someone isn't living up to their end of the unstated contract, find new people.
Edited by Sampled on 9/27/2013 1:11 PM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
Honestly, you're either going to have to suck it up and raid with the failbots, or leave the guild. I've experienced this, and ended up switching to another guild.

If an R Shaman is failing on some of the most basic fundamental healing things like casting HR on stacked up people, keeping ES on the tank and using Ascendance, there's no chance you or anyone else is going to be able to coach them into being a good healer. I wouldn't even take someone to our flex group who couldn't cover those fundamentals.
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5 Orc Monk
You can only change someone else's behavior by changing your own. Do you call out in vent when you are using a cooldown? Do you or your raid leader set specific player cooldowns for specific damage surges? Do you have healing assignments?
You have the attitude that you are carrying them, therefore you are covering their shortfalls. If say the pali is responsible for covering a healing cooldown & fails then the raidleader & the raid as a whole will analyse it and the player will have to work out what he can do better. If the shaman is responsible for a tank & analysis of his death shows no or insignificant healing from the shaman the raid leader will ask why.
You can only teach someone who wants to learn.
Perhaps backing off a bit will give them an incentive to perform better. At the moment they are probably unaware of the damage levels. Try working on the approach for a few fights that your job is to prevent death & let them fill the health bars.
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10 Troll Monk
Thank you guys for your responses, I will be talking to my RL tonight about it, so hopefully he will see what's been going on and do what would benefit the team.

The only assignments we do is have a healer for the tower group. It was the shaman and he was getting knocked off the tower. I like the idea of assigning cds and heal assignments, thats how I raided in 25 mans during cata, it just hasn't been needed so far in this 10 man group, but maybe it's time to implement that.

Again thank you for your responses, I really appreciate it!
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90 Tauren Paladin
Seems like your raid leader is friends with some people that consider themselves extremely casual raiders that have no desire to put in the effort to improve. It seems like the guild you're in is the wrong fit for you. You may like the people in your current guild, but having a raid leader that wont criticize someone just because the two are friends doesn't sound like it's working out.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
One of the things our raid group did to address this issue was to have our best healer take on a semi-lead role. We asked her to be in charge of handling all the healers.

Her responsibilities included learning the basic fundamentals of all the healing classes. Then, prior to boss encounters, she'd take a moment on Vent to break down healing CD rotations and timing for all the different healers.

If the other healers weren't following the advice, and a wipe occurred, she'd simply send a whisper to the RL regarding the missed CD or whatever possibly caused the wipe, and it'd be his responsibility to get that person to shape up.

You might approach your raid team, and see if they'll put you in charge of setting up CD rotations, and monitoring the healing done. You'd be surprised what a simple whisper can do:

"We can't down this boss until that R Shaman starts using his healing rain more often" will be magic words that'll inspire a good RL to get things moving in the right direction. As a matter of fact, the words "we can't down this boss until.." almost always work in any situation.
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90 Tauren Druid
Just carry. really i'm stronger than the other two healers in our raid group and this isn't !@#$ting on them either i'm just better and consistently outheal them and generally am the reason our raid is a success from a healing pov
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10 Troll Monk
You might approach your raid team, and see if they'll put you in charge of setting up CD rotations, and monitoring the healing done. You'd be surprised what a simple whisper can do:

Thanks a lot! I think this would work really well. I've raided as a hpal/hpriest/sham, the only classes i dont know well at all are druids and monks.

I did have a chat with my MT last night, who is also to co-rl and a guild officer. He agrees with me and would like to see the other healers step into their roles more fully. He did point out the same thing that Tiktan did, below.

Perhaps backing off a bit will give them an incentive to perform better. At the moment they are probably unaware of the damage levels.

Our GM/RL wasn't on last night, so hopefully the MT and I will be able to bring this up with him and it'll get things going in a positive direction.

09/28/2013 04:09 AMPosted by Lìfendeath
Just carry.

I don't agree with this mentality. I have no problem doing way more healing than the others, IF the bosses are going down. Which is what I've been doing up to this point. That's simply no longer an option.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
I am 510 and can heal as much, if not more then your Paladin! :P
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90 Draenei Priest
I was so frustrated last night after 3 hours of raiding, that I wanted to just uninstall. (Temporary nerd rage)

Take it from me, say something to the RL or officers, if nothing is done in short order, find another group if you wish to keep raiding.

I seriously went through the same issue and stayed with it way too long. My co-healer was constantly screwing things up. I got fed up back in January and said things. Repeatedly. Nothing was done, the guy kept being invited. I told the group I was leaving come 5.4. They posted they would crack down on the bads THIS time, they did not. With me not around to put up with that healer and all the other random crap going on, the team went through 3 healers and finally imploded with 2 people getting gkicked, and the RL and his brother server transferring. There is no team any more. Someone really should have taken charge way earlier, myself included.
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90 Pandaren Monk
Grab Disc and let them do it all. The end.
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90 Draenei Shaman
A few things come to mind when I see the healing numbers, Voodoomonk. Whoever heals the tower group on Galakras will have lower healing numbers usually. And then my question would be, how geared is the other shaman? Does he have his legendary cloak and gem? If he's somewhat your gear level then his healing should be somewhat equal to yours. We have 3 healers in our raid group (me, a pally and a druid or priest) and we are all pretty equal in healing but it also depends on the fight. Did the other shaman healer say why he doesn't use certain healing spell or cd's?
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10 Troll Monk
Thank you all so much for your input and advice. I spoke with my raid leader/GM as well as the shaman, and the co raid leader. I first spoke alone with my gm, letting him know how i felt about the situation, and he was very open to many of the ideas given in this thread.

I will now be expected to make sure to assign healing and cd rotation, and if assignments aren't met, to notify him about the issue.

We spoke with the shaman, and talked about a lot of things that he could be working on, and with the gm in the conversation, he listened and has agreed to make some much needed changes.

He doesn't have his legendary cloak/meta, has just been to lazy to do it, so the gm told him to make sure to get on that, as he will require it before we attempt the final wing of bosses on normal, which probably wont happen for us for several weeks.

The paladin was taken aside by the gm and co-rl as well, and was given several resources to help him step up his game. hopefully these changes will be enough to make sure we can all raid together and get bosses down without so much frustration.

Thank you guys so much for the help, I really do love the healing community in this game, you guys and gals are the best!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
We have an issue on the same case like that in an entire ToT patch that from the start I feel like I was healing alone and the reason this disc priest cant perform at the expected level is because he said "I cant do attonement if I heal you guys" and we just silent and WTF lol. Of course we have another healer in case this pro guy is slacking and we feel like did not need him. (no matter what we said, this guy keep pretending he is the right one)

But in the end, we got another resto druid which I can say I am fairly comfortable to heal with, can pull the string and get the job done. From that moment we always think that we should always 2 heal so if one healer is messing around, the other healer will point him (which is almost always happen).

In your case, if you have 3 healers, if somebody always carry the group, two of them will not realize and the whole group will not notice the problem. If you 2 heal that, it will be pretty much kill or wipe if one healer fail to do his or her job. Btw I think healers and tank are the only roles that really need to get a comfortable feeling between each others while DPS can play selfish and one man show..
Edited by Tiraamisu on 10/2/2013 5:26 PM PDT
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