Proving grounds.

100 Gnome Mage
16085
Proving ground achievements are about as useful as a driver's license, think about that the next time some guy cuts you off and flips you the bird, there is a very high chance he holds a valid drivers license.


And we do not require a license for reproduction... that is why we have laws like the one in Iowa that says you have to give concealed carry gun permits to blind people... Brain damage!
I like the idea of requiring silver. Gold is just too much as certain classes have a MUCH harder time than others the way proving grounds are set up. I know some very talented raiders who were really pushed to the limit on gold because their class wasn't one of the better ones.

Silver would be great though as having a basic understanding of your class is generally enough to beat it quickly.
Edited by Kudger on 9/27/2013 7:59 AM PDT
90 Orc Shaman
6405
Doing heroic 25man SoO and have yet to care about proving grounds, because they prove nothing.

Just like how me being a rank 10 brawler proves nothing.


I wouldn't say they prove nothing. They prove something, but what value the community places on these things is kind of the whole matter.

I mean, ask someone that doesn't play WoW what they think of being a gladiator in WoW means? They probably don't even know the significance of it.

Most of this stuff is for your own satisfaction anyway. If you're a miserable person playing a game for bragging rights, then that's a pathology all its own.
95 Blood Elf Priest
5455
09/27/2013 07:40 AMPosted by Médic
Done intentionally.


Since it was fixed, I don't thing so.


The NPCs will still take damage from AoE. While it certainly is easier than it was before, the Proving Grounds prove very little if the expectation is that people will run out of bad spots as if they have a Saturn V rocket attached to their backsides. It simply never happens, even good players with a team attitude will often take a tick or two of damage before they can flee.

The reason people have trouble with the healer proving is because to be truly successful at it, you should be interrupting the Flamecallers (IIRC) which means focus targeting, and awareness that is not usually required for PvE healing.

In fact, one of my friends strictly PvP heals and had a good time of it because he was well used to interrupting as a healer.
71 Human Rogue
2095
Gating LFR behind proving grounds will be the final nail in the coffin for this game for me. You don't open content then shut it behind levels or other stuff not previously required. No, I don't afk and I'm usually mid-to top in dps (mostly because I *gasp* use cc and aura and move out of bad as a melee.) I am perfectly happy with being an average player. I have no need to prove anything to a group of strangers.

Reading the forums everyone acts like they are best dps, everything is super easy, that you can 'sleep' through everything, that you can hit level 10 in 10 minutes, that it's acceptable to afk through LFR, that it's okay to pull in groups when not a tank. (note, I didn't say pull for a tank, that implies coordination and cooperation.) In fact, those claiming to be top players and that anyone not playing at their level is lazy are also the ones claiming they 'mash keyboard' through normals and afk through LFR. Exaggeration, blatant disregard of other players, ego-stroking, laziness.

Now we have proving grounds and these 'everything is easy' people are adding yet another thing to their 'I am God at the game' notch list. No, it's not easy for everyone. No, not everyone wants prove themselves. No not everyone wants to play the game like you do.

All raids are already locked behind something, be it ilv or player's requirements. From the forums supposedly LFR is already so easy and so 'dumbed down', it shouldn't even exist. If it is so easy, then why need proving grounds? If proving grounds is a requirement then LFR should be made harder. If it's made harder, then the gear should be better. If gear is made better, these 'I am god at the game' players scream it's unfair. Frankly, make up your minds already.

Disparage all you want, I know those claiming to be best at everything really aren't. No one is soloing the current raid, so it doesn't mater if your DPS is at the top of the list. Your DPs alone did not down that boss, your DPs isn't that good. which means it took a team to kill that raid boss so puffing up your chest making silly claims means nothing. When you can credit your raid team instead of you alone, when you can start working in a coordinated fashion in lower level dungeons instead of being a selfish prick, when you can put out effort instead of akfing in LFR like the lazy bum you are, then you can maybe have a say on how other group content should be presented to lower skilled players.

Until that happens, go play the game you are too good for, that offers you no challenge, that no one else matters except what they can give to you and leave the rest of us average cog-in-the-machine players alone with our average content.
90 Orc Shaman
6405


So how does this enforce players actually using those skills in LFR?

I ask because I've seen a good number of extremely well-geared players (normal and some heroic items) slacking right off in LFR, while the rest of them pick up that slack. It's not the common case, but I've seen it more than I've seen the people who clearly don't know what they're doing.

Still, it reminds me that I really should give Proving Grounds a try. It was on my list of top things in 5.4, but I never make the time.


Having gear doesn't always prove people know how to play well.


Just like being intelligent doesn't mean you'll be successful. There's a certain amount of motivation that's required to do well in anything. WoW's skill requirement is rather low. Think of it like touch-typing. To someone that never learned how, you might as well be asking them to play the piano. But if they would apply themselves they could learn how to touch-type in very little time.

People know what they need to do to play well, but they don't care enough to do it.
11 Draenei Paladin
50
09/27/2013 07:41 AMPosted by Fairadey
I'm sorry, but poking a group of players in the eye for a bad reason is bad. And no I'm not talking about afkers or botters, but those who multibox and legit have all the toons participating


If blizz felt justified in breaking /follow in bg's I don't know why the same reasons wouldn't apply to LFR. Multi boxing is tolerated not supported.
90 Human Warlock
9100
Are you implying that requiring a driver license to (legally) operate a vehicle does nothing to help our road safety, that having to demonstrate your ability to use a vehicle before actually using one is pointless?


Yes when you consider that a large number of fatalities are

1. Drunk drivers of all stripes from eighteen to eighty.
2. Drug drivers including truckes with thousands of hours on the road hopped up on amphetamines.
3. Police officers with high powered pursuit cars that I wouldnt trust to drive a school bus (and the less said about their skill and "reliability to perform" with the .40 cal weapon they are issued, the better).
4. Hoons with high powered cars that cant be trusted with a tricycle.
5. Adults in ther ranges between eighteen and twenty four who make up a huge percentage of road fatalities

..all who passed their licence tests and have since proven themselves unfit to drive in any capacity.

You cant legislate morality, and you cant enforce competency, or compensate for plain old human stupidity.(witness a woman here a few days ago with three kids in her car who blew four times the limit in peak hour traffic. No I am not joking, she was drunk at 8am on a weekday).

No offence Erras, but this is a VERY sore point with me.

Are you suggesting that if we were to completely drop the license requirement, that the quality of the drivers on the roads would take zero hit whatsoever?


To my mind there are a lot of people on the road who are unsafe on a skateboard..let alone a car...

quite honestly, your little analogy supports the ideology of requiring proving ground achievements for LFR, in my opinion.


Erras: You can get some guy who has done heroic raids and has PG gold..and sucks harder than a vacuum cleaner on turbocharge. It isnt a gaurantee of quality.
Edited by Mirisanelle on 9/27/2013 8:18 AM PDT
90 Human Priest
19325
Proven Healer title is the pinnacle of titles.
100 Human Mage
16015
09/27/2013 08:10 AMPosted by Judgernaught
I'm sorry, but poking a group of players in the eye for a bad reason is bad. And no I'm not talking about afkers or botters, but those who multibox and legit have all the toons participating


If blizz felt justified in breaking /follow in bg's I don't know why the same reasons wouldn't apply to LFR. Multi boxing is tolerated not supported.


I think they have basically been proven wrong in their justification of trying it out in bg's.
And while multiboxing is not supported, there is zero reason to even justify harming them for something shown to be a failure in something so similar.
98 Night Elf Druid
9795
I feel like some people are overreacting in here. Dispelling and interrupting things isnt that hard.
90 Blood Elf Priest
9065

In fact, one of my friends strictly PvP heals and had a good time of it because he was well used to interrupting as a healer.


I interrupt once every 2 minutes, I'd love to interrupt more, but...
90 Human Priest
10660
Erras: You can get some guy who has done heroic raids and has PG gold..and sucks harder than a vacuum cleaner on turbocharge. It isnt a gaurantee of quality.


But it DOES guarantee quality. It doesn't promise HIGH quality, but it does at least establish that a person does actually possess a bare minimum set of skills.

You listed off a bunch of people who are either irresponsible drivers or not the best drivers... but it is impossible to deny that they at least do have a base set of skills. Its better than nothing.
95 Blood Elf Priest
5455
Gating LFR behind proving grounds will be the final nail in the coffin for this game for me. You don't open content then shut it behind levels or other stuff not previously required. No, I don't afk and I'm usually mid-to top in dps (mostly because I *gasp* use cc and aura and move out of bad as a melee.) I am perfectly happy with being an average player. I have no need to prove anything to a group of strangers.

Reading the forums everyone acts like they are best dps, everything is super easy, that you can 'sleep' through everything, that you can hit level 10 in 10 minutes, that it's acceptable to afk through LFR, that it's okay to pull in groups when not a tank. (note, I didn't say pull for a tank, that implies coordination and cooperation.) In fact, those claiming to be top players and that anyone not playing at their level is lazy are also the ones claiming they 'mash keyboard' through normals and afk through LFR. Exaggeration, blatant disregard of other players, ego-stroking, laziness.

Now we have proving grounds and these 'everything is easy' people are adding yet another thing to their 'I am God at the game' notch list. No, it's not easy for everyone. No, not everyone wants prove themselves. No not everyone wants to play the game like you do.

All raids are already locked behind something, be it ilv or player's requirements. From the forums supposedly LFR is already so easy and so 'dumbed down', it shouldn't even exist. If it is so easy, then why need proving grounds? If proving grounds is a requirement then LFR should be made harder. If it's made harder, then the gear should be better. If gear is made better, these 'I am god at the game' players scream it's unfair. Frankly, make up your minds already.

Disparage all you want, I know those claiming to be best at everything really aren't. No one is soloing the current raid, so it doesn't mater if your DPS is at the top of the list. Your DPs alone did not down that boss, your DPs isn't that good. which means it took a team to kill that raid boss so puffing up your chest making silly claims means nothing. When you can credit your raid team instead of you alone, when you can start working in a coordinated fashion in lower level dungeons instead of being a selfish prick, when you can put out effort instead of akfing in LFR like the lazy bum you are, then you can maybe have a say on how other group content should be presented to lower skilled players.

Until that happens, go play the game you are too good for, that offers you no challenge, that no one else matters except what they can give to you and leave the rest of us average cog-in-the-machine players alone with our average content.


Maybe she was born with it?
100 Human Paladin
12955
Having gear doesn't always prove people know how to play well.


Too glib.

The problem I see is that there is a noticeable group of skilled players who want to be carried through LFR because they believe it's beneath them. They sit out the trash pulls, they actively avoid fighting the boss or even commit suicide in front of the boss. They have plenty of achievements, and while they could all have been carried, the balance of probability indicates to me that they're just wanting others to do the work for them.

An achievement that shows a base level of ability does not translate into them actually using that ability in LFR.

I don't support this idea for the reason above. Instead, I would support a minimum standard for DPS, HPS and tanking (threat per second?) before a player is eligible for loot from each boss. The standard would be different for every boss and perhaps modified by class, but it would force players to contribute. It'd also include a time component (maybe only calculated in the last half of the fight), so a player couldn't blow all their CDs, get a DPS spike and then kill themselves when they've got the numbers. Anyone wanting a carry gets no loot. Anyone running into the boss at the start of the fight, or using that stupid dagger, gets no loot. They may just do the bare minimum, but at least they're contributing something.

It's not foolproof, but it leaves a much smaller hole for players to exploit.
95 Blood Elf Priest
5455

In fact, one of my friends strictly PvP heals and had a good time of it because he was well used to interrupting as a healer.


I interrupt once every 2 minutes, I'd love to interrupt more, but...


Our own shortcoming, eh?

It was much easier on my Shaman. Keybind Wind Shock to a focus macro on Oto.
90 Human Warlock
9100
But it DOES guarantee quality. It doesn't promise HIGH quality, but it does at least establish that a person does actually possess a bare minimum set of skills.


It seems to fill a niche, but gospel? No..I dont see it.

You listed off a bunch of people who are either irresponsible drivers or not the best drivers... but it is impossible to deny that they at least do have a base set of skills. Its better than nothing.


For all the good it did them.

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity"
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