Proving grounds.

90 Human Warlock
9100
Or we could just wipe to Nazgrim / Dark Shamans again, and again, and again, and again, and again...


..Flex, normal and Heroic never wipe? Um..no...

Btw, did I mention I was in a LFR with Nazgrim, got to 10 stacks, and STILL wiped? Mainly because 3/4 of the DPS were well below what they needed to do, and I mean like pushing 30-40k dps. I would be all for this suggestion, but I couldn't see most people getting gold.


Funny, Ive been in a lot of LFR and I never seem to get these bad groups I keep hearing about.
90 Human Warlock
10405
09/27/2013 08:22 AMPosted by Erres
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity"


Oh I never do. Which is why, whenever possible, I try to limit the stupidity of people doing stupid things in public. I doubt requiring proving grounds will drastically improve the quality of players in dungeons, but it will at least keep the super inept (hunters in int) away.


Like I said earlier, I am a very stupid player, and got through the bronze/silver dps proving grounds one time each. Unless gold is dramatically harder than silver, I don't think Proving Grounds prove a thing.
90 Human Warlock
10405
Funny, Ive been in a lot of LFR and I never seem to get these bad groups I keep hearing about.


Same here. There is the occasional wipe here and there, but I never see these bad groups I keep hearing about. Perhaps I lead a charmed life?
Edited by Giwwy on 9/27/2013 8:49 AM PDT
90 Human Warlock
9100
The point though is that it proves they are competent. Even you said so in your own words.


On the day of the test, yes.

Three days later that same person who passed his drivers exam with flying colours is booked and his licence cancelled for doing 110kph in an 80 zone.

Or drink driving.

Or both.

Or wraps his car around a fencepost owing to inexperience, or drugs, or drinking, or racing his mates....
Edited by Mirisanelle on 9/27/2013 8:50 AM PDT
11 Draenei Paladin
50
09/27/2013 08:44 AMPosted by Erres
Just because a person can prove they are competent to pass a drivers examine in no way guarantees they will continue being competent behind the wheel once they pass.


The point though is that it proves they are competent. Even you said so in your own words.


I also said a drivers license main function in society is as an official form of ID. Gating LFR behind PG achievements will do nothing to improve the success rate of raid groups nor will it curb bad behavior.
90 Night Elf Rogue
10600
Ah, another PG thread where every poster that states how easy gold is has gear with full sockets. >.< PGs are a reliable marker up to Silver. After that, they become very gear/class dependent. So when someone says they are struggling, you have to look at the gear before you can respond appropriately.

As for gating LFR - No. LFR is not raiding. LFR can be used to train for raiding, but it is not raiding. Let the Raid Leaders gate their raids on whatever stats they wish to, and keep additional gating away from portions of the game that do not require a Raid Leader.
90 Human Rogue
3540

You aren't telling me anything I don't know. I realize they all CAN get gold, my point is IF it isn't equally difficult for all classes/specs it is entirely meaningless in my books.

I don't think the delta in difficulty from class to class is large enough to be concerned all that much by, honestly. Priests are maybe a bit weaker in PG-Healer than others, but I don't think we're talking by a giant margin although I haven't tried it on my shaman.


I am not sure why you are arguing with my perception of things because this is my perception and my evaluation and you won't win. In my books things AREN'T equal and because of this any ranking someone gets is meaningless to me. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, I suggest you actually do try different classes/specs in order to actually have an informed opinion.
90 Blood Elf Priest
9065
09/27/2013 08:47 AMPosted by Judgernaught
I don't think the delta in difficulty from class to class is large enough to be concerned all that much by, honestly. Priests are maybe a bit weaker in PG-Healer than others, but I don't think we're talking by a giant margin although I haven't tried it on my shaman


There have been a lot of conflicting reports on the equality of PG when it comes to class/specs and even gear (yes I know gear is scaled down to 463) but sockets, gems, reforges and enchants are said to play a significant role in success and failure rates in PG.


Sockets aren't scaled (and therefore gear with more gem slots is superior), enchants and reforges are accessible to everyone though, so that's not really a big deal. That's not a factor for silver certainly, and probably not gold either.
90 Night Elf Hunter
18460
09/27/2013 08:47 AMPosted by Mirisanelle
Or we could just wipe to Nazgrim / Dark Shamans again, and again, and again, and again, and again...


..Flex, normal and Heroic never wipe? Um..no...

Btw, did I mention I was in a LFR with Nazgrim, got to 10 stacks, and STILL wiped? Mainly because 3/4 of the DPS were well below what they needed to do, and I mean like pushing 30-40k dps. I would be all for this suggestion, but I couldn't see most people getting gold.


Funny, Ive been in a lot of LFR and I never seem to get these bad groups I keep hearing about.


I'm sorry, last I checked the difficulty goes up in Flex, Normal, and Heroic. Heck, just look at the crawler mines on the Iron Juggernaught and see the difference. LFR you get hit for about 250-300k dmg, which can easily be survived without CDs.

So if you think that LFR = Flex = Normal = Heroic, you might need assistance.

My point is, we need some sort of 'system' to weed out people who are just there for, literally, free epics. This isn't some elitism screaming "My gear is better, you all suck, uninstall WoW plox." This is me watching my guildies (who aren't raiding) and friends (who are in the same boat) hearing them, and witnessing it myself, the complete disregard for mechanics in LFR and the ability to actually play your freakin' class right.

They don't even need to hit Gold in PG, as some people have issues with it, but at least Bronze.

Also, you do realize I'm a person, right? Your snide remarks are noted. :)
90 Blood Elf Priest
9065

I am not sure why you are arguing with my perception of things because this is my perception and my evaluation and you won't win. In my books things AREN'T equal and because of this any ranking someone gets is meaningless to me. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, I suggest you actually do try different classes/specs in order to actually have an informed opinion.


Perception doesn't matter, the fact that large numbers of players of every spec have done gold for their role is what matters. Data is far more important than your feeling that it might be imbalanced.

Additionally, this thread is mostly about silver, which is a joke for any spec (except those going for you're doing it wrong, of course).
90 Human Rogue
3540
09/27/2013 08:47 AMPosted by Mirisanelle
Or we could just wipe to Nazgrim / Dark Shamans again, and again, and again, and again, and again...


..Flex, normal and Heroic never wipe? Um..no...

Btw, did I mention I was in a LFR with Nazgrim, got to 10 stacks, and STILL wiped? Mainly because 3/4 of the DPS were well below what they needed to do, and I mean like pushing 30-40k dps. I would be all for this suggestion, but I couldn't see most people getting gold.


Funny, Ive been in a lot of LFR and I never seem to get these bad groups I keep hearing about.


I have done a LOT of LFR and never saw a group like this either, i.e. 75% of group doing 30-40k dps. However, if I ever did I wouldn't be stupid enough to wait around for 10 wipes i tell you.
90 Night Elf Hunter
18460
09/27/2013 08:54 AMPosted by Asaran


..Flex, normal and Heroic never wipe? Um..no...



Funny, Ive been in a lot of LFR and I never seem to get these bad groups I keep hearing about.


I have done a LOT of LFR and never saw a group like this either, i.e. 75% of group doing 30-40k dps. However, if I ever did I wouldn't be stupid enough to wait around for 10 wipes i tell you.


I'm just stubborn. ^_^
11 Draenei Paladin
50
09/27/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Quorim
Sockets aren't scaled (and therefore gear with more gem slots is superior), enchants and reforges are accessible to everyone though, so that's not really a big deal. That's not a factor for silver certainly, and probably not gold either


Would you agree that if players were stripped of their gear upon entering PG and outfitted in a standardized gear to attempt the test it would be a fairer system? That way everyone participating in PG would have the exact same gear leaving no room for speculation.
90 Human Warlock
9100
Barathos: I have seen fully gemmed, enchanted and reforged raiders hit a boss one night and down it in one swoop.. a week later they wipe all night..on the same boss.

As for a system, we have one already. Its called the kick.

BTW it doesnt worry me as I am not touching PG either way. Optional content means I can do it if I like...and it doesnt interest me. So not doing it.
90 Undead Warlock
10735
Silver was pretty simple to complete, so I agree. You should at least be able to do silver to do a LRF.
90 Blood Elf Priest
9065
Sockets aren't scaled (and therefore gear with more gem slots is superior), enchants and reforges are accessible to everyone though, so that's not really a big deal. That's not a factor for silver certainly, and probably not gold either


Would you agree that if players were stripped of their gear upon entering PG and outfitted in a standardized gear to attempt the test it would be a fairer system? That way everyone participating in PG would have the exact same gear leaving no room for speculation.


Only if they picked the secondary stats. They could also normalize gems by just increasing stats by an amount that the gem slot cost, deactivate gem slots, and normalize the new stats. They'd need to do something about hit/exp though, but I don't think that'd be a roadblock, really.

Enchants and prof bonuses are fine as is, since everyone has access to them, and they don't change with the gear you happen to have. It's also debatable how much gems really help you since gem slots aren't free, they cost ilvl budget.
Edited by Quorim on 9/27/2013 9:00 AM PDT
90 Undead Priest
4275
09/27/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Mirisanelle
TESO doesnt. Wildstar doesnt.


I don't know about TESO, but Wildstar does. With the telegraph system, they slowly speed up how fast mobs drop things and how long of a window you have to move out of it, etc, increasing the difficulty as you get higher level.
90 Human Warlock
9100
Silver was pretty simple to complete, so I agree. You should at least be able to do silver to do a LRF.


Telling millions of players "do this test or else be locked out of content" is ..unwise. Wixch is why it will never happen.

I don't know about TESO, but Wildstar does. With the telegraph system, they slowly speed up how fast mobs drop things and how long of a window you have to move out of it, etc, increasing the difficulty as you get higher level.


Hm. I'll look at it and decide. Plenty of other MMO's out there.
Edited by Mirisanelle on 9/27/2013 8:59 AM PDT
90 Gnome Mage
13900
09/27/2013 08:44 AMPosted by Erres
Just because a person can prove they are competent to pass a drivers examine in no way guarantees they will continue being competent behind the wheel once they pass.


The point though is that it proves they are competent. Even you said so in your own words.


When I have to prove that I am competent in order to play a game then it is time to crawl in a hole and die.
90 Night Elf Rogue
10600
[quote="101024111576"]Sockets aren't scaled (and therefore gear with more gem slots is superior), enchants and reforges are accessible to everyone though, so that's not really a big deal. That's not a factor for silver certainly, and probably not gold either.


I disagree. I had to reforge 4 pieces of gear that I hadn't gotten around to (the rest was reforged) in order to clear Gold. Once I did that - it was like night and day. However, you will note, I only carry 5 sockets + meta. Combat is also not "the" spec for Rogues. So again, Gold level is where the gear/class/spec suddenly becomes highly relevant to any discussion of the worth of the achievement.
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