I'm calling you out on this mess up. Fix it.

100 Dwarf Hunter
17915
Nitpick if you want, but the damage is so minimal if it exists that it doesn't matter.

Actually the difference is huge. If your raid is missing a buff and you don't provide that buff in order to bring the pet you like... that is a huge damage loss.

Doesn't seem broken to me, it's recharging the exact same way my 2x Hands do (ie. Freedom, I can pop it twice, using both charges, but they recharge in order, with the first 25 seconds recharging the first charge, and the second 25 doing the second).

So... you're complaining that your recharge mechanic is working the same way as everyone else's, and that's not fair?

I am complaining that it isn't working the way GC said it would work. Do people even read the OP? They said they were buffing deterrence in compensation of the removal of readiness, so they give it 2 charges but then they increase the cooldown by 1 minute. Then GC said it would result in 2 deterrences every 3 minutes but it is 1 deterrence every 3 minutes.

I am 'complaining' that they said they would buff it, but instead they massively nerfed it and now the ability is in a much worse spot from before when it wasn't even close to being too strong to begin with. Hunters already had some of the weakest PvE defensive abilities and now we have it a lot worse. The nerf was uncalled for and unnecessary and they kept referring to it as a buff when it is obviously a nerf, and a huge nerf at that.

I think he was more upset at the fact GC either didn't understand it or simply explained it wrong, and wants an apology for it. So... yeah. I've seen Spinner post from time to time, and he likes to complain. A lot.

I am sorry if this thread comes off as complaining to you, but that's not really my problem. I like it when abilities are broken and then they are fixed. I don't like it when GC says that an ability will be buffed, actually explaining exactly how the charge system will work (which was completely wrong) when confronted with the claim that the implementation (the one on live right now) would be a nerf. Deterrence did not need nerfed, it was not too strong, it got nerfed by a huge amount and there is absolutely no evidence anywhere to show that blizzard even knows it. GC said it was working as intended but he never refuted his other tweet explaining how it incorrectly worked.

The ability was nerfed hard when hunters already had weak defensives in PvE. That is the main issue with the change, but it makes it a lot worse that they haven't spoken a word of it, that they stated that it would be a buff and that GC actually explained how the recharge mechanic would work on twitter. All of these things combined makes a post like this in gen discussion completely necessary.

let me get this straight, anytime blizzard doesn't work an ability the way people are expecting, we should get refunds?

It's not only the way people are expecting, it is the way that GC said it would be changed. He said it would be a buff, it's not. He explained how the charging would work, he was wrong. Now deterrence has a huge nerf for no reason and there is no post from a dev or GC explaining it or even acknowledging it.

I don't want a refund, I want them to fix deterrence. That's why I put "Fix it" in the thread title.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
6495
Spinnerdh.
You are complaining about a developer who told us gearing up in 5 mans was too easy and then they gave us Timeless Isle where stumbling over a chest as you run around is the mechanic.

He lies, period. Whatever he needs to say for PR value at that moment in time is what he will say. Corporate PR mechanics do not resemble truth or common sense in any way.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17915
Spinnerdh.
You are complaining about a developer who told us gearing up in 5 mans was too easy and then they gave us Timeless Isle where stumbling over a chest as you run around is the mechanic.

He lies, period. Whatever he needs to say for PR value at that moment in time is what he will say. Corporate PR mechanics do not resemble truth or common sense in any way.

There are multiple lairs to this thread. It is obvious that GC was lying or just having a massive brain fart every time he mentioned the ability. I know that, and I am calling him out on that. But I also want the deterrence nerf to be reverted, or maybe even have the CD reduced by 1 minute to what it was supposed to be in the first place.
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90 Draenei Hunter
6455
Spinner, I don''t always agree with you but here I do, Deterrence needs to be fixed. I am glad to see your determination and perseverance on this issue as I have become pretty apathetic.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
10465
I agree with you too, Spinner. But this is GC we're talking about. Don't hold your breath.
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92 Goblin Priest
1030
One thing you have to remember is posts on twitter is not the last word on how something will be done, its not a official post pretty much... Thats what blue posts on ptr and patch notes are.. GC tweeting something doesnt necessarily mean a last minute change wont happen or they decided to go another way, or even that is what he meant to say. That couldve been the stance they were taking at some point in time but decided to change before the release or even he was just mistaken something altogether.

Not trying to be a defensive dan or anything :P The fact that any of the people at Blizzard uses twitter at all to try and communicate more shouldnt be something to jump on and use as official news of something going to happen.. Its more of just a way to reach out more and try and give some insight on what they are looking at. If everyone wants to jump on every tweet as set in stone fact of it will happen, im sure youll start seeing alot less tweets by people at Blizzard.

Buuuuuuut. If its something truely broken, hotfixes are still happening almost every day.
Edited by Bonkadadonk on 9/27/2013 1:59 PM PDT
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MVP
100 Night Elf Priest
11795
Interesting. I'm not usually on the same page as the op.

However I do kind of see the concern here.
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Hes a marine biologist pretending to be a game designer what do you expect??
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17915
That couldve the stance they were taking at some point in time but decided to change before the release or he was just mistaken something altogether.

The main point that I see is that this change was made at the same time as the removal of readiness. They made it in response to the abilities removal. There would be no reason to make the nerf in response to readiness's removal if it was a nerf. There would however be a perfect reason to buff it in response to it.

Buuuuuuut. If its something truely broken, hotfixes are still happening almost every day.

It is. The number of deterrences usable in PvE was cut in half, resulting in a massive nerf that was not needed as deterrence was not too strong or OP. Hunters were already very weak defensively in PvE, so this change was completely uncalled for. It doesn't help that there is absolutely no post anywhere from a dev explaining or even acknowledging the nerf.
Edited by Spinnerdh on 9/27/2013 1:58 PM PDT
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92 Goblin Priest
1030
People should get something for catching mistakes if this is indeed one of them :P ..Pretty much all you can do is what youre already doing now which is bringing it to attention.
Edited by Bonkadadonk on 9/27/2013 2:07 PM PDT
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Community Manager
I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4. And yes, it's a nerf in cases where you were using it more or less on cooldown every minute for longer than about 4 minutes.

However, in cases where you'd like to use it more than once inside a 1-minute period, the new Deterrence is a significant buff. Previously, that couldn't be done without using Readiness, and the vast majority of players weren't saving Readiness for Deterrence.

It's different now, sure, but we like how the new version is working.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10505
I just want my Readiness back. :/
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88 Human Death Knight
4120
I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4. And yes, it's a nerf in cases where you were using it more or less on cooldown every minute for longer than about 4 minutes.

However, in cases where you'd like to use it more than once inside a 1-minute period, the new Deterrence is a significant buff. Previously, that couldn't be done without using Readiness, and the vast majority of players weren't saving Readiness for Deterrence.

It's different now, sure, but we like how the new version is working.


Ehhh, I think the key issue is that's not how it was represented to the player base (based on reading Spinner's post). It's been represented as being flatly buffed to compensate for the lack of Readiness, but turned into a situational buff based on usage.
Edited by Deatherknite on 9/27/2013 2:13 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19530
I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4. And yes, it's a nerf in cases where you were using it more or less on cooldown every minute for longer than about 4 minutes.

However, in cases where you'd like to use it more than once inside a 1-minute period, the new Deterrence is a significant buff. Previously, that couldn't be done without using Readiness, and the vast majority of players weren't saving Readiness for Deterrence.

It's different now, sure, but we like how the new version is working.


Ehhh, I think the key issue is that's not how it was represented to the player base (based on reading Spinner's post). It's been represented as being flatly buffed to compensate for the lack of Readiness, but turned into a situational buff based on usage.


It's a buff for the majority of the playerbase, since they don't use their defensive cooldowns often enough that it would be a nerf, but they may eventually want to use multiple Deterrences inside of a minute.

It's a nerf for top-tier players in long fights who use their defensive cooldowns nearly on-cooldown.
Edited by Simca on 9/27/2013 2:16 PM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
16260
I just want my Readiness back. :/


Readiness was a crutch is no longer needed.
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90 Draenei Hunter
6455
I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4...


The only confusion on how it works has been on your part, our confusion is why was it nerfed in PVE? I hate using deterrence, it blocks my only real function in the raid, it's not like it was over used, now I just die more waiting the 5 to 6 minutes until it's ready again.

...we like how the new version is working.


I guess there is nothing else to say then.
Edited by Runningdove on 9/27/2013 2:30 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13930
No one cares.
lolz
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17915
I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4. And yes, it's a nerf in cases where you were using it more or less on cooldown every minute for longer than about 4 minutes.

However, in cases where you'd like to use it more than once inside a 1-minute period, the new Deterrence is a significant buff. Previously, that couldn't be done without using Readiness, and the vast majority of players weren't saving Readiness for Deterrence.

It's different now, sure, but we like how the new version is working.

The cases in PvE where you need to use it more than once inside a 1 minute period are few and far between, but the cases where there are actual boss mechanics happening on regular intervals, this is a significant nerf. One situation you might be referring to is bombs on iron juggernaut (that I was fighting just a few nights ago) and I was able to get two bombs from the same bomb spreading, but then I wasn't able to get any from the next one, and then I was able to get 1 from the next and none from the one after. So even in that extremely uncommon situation where you gotta use 2 in a row in a short amount of time it still comes out to be a nerf. In a realistic PvE enviroment to a hunter who knows what they are doing, we have had deterrence's cooldown doubled in exchange for one extra use of deterrence when we see fit. That is not a buff in any way, shape or form.

The change was an extremely situational 'buff' at best, and even then the buff is not a buff because we are so negatively affected by the loss of so many deterrences for the rest of the fight.

I suggest taking a look at the OP where it explains the difference between the number of possible deterrences pre-5.4 and post-5.4. The number change is huge. The fact is that the requirement to use deterrence back to back within a minute doesn't happen nearly often enough that it justifies losing half our deterrences for the rest of the fight and in every other situation imaginable.

I have died in my raid group because I couldn't use deterrence on mechanics that I wouldn't die to before because I could pop deterrence. If the back to back deterrence requirement exists in a fight, that means it exists more than once in a fight most likely, and if that is the case then it is still a huge nerf. Until you come up with a raid boss fight that only lasts 4 minuets and the only mechanics that require a hunter to use deterrence only happens 2 times and they happen within 10 seconds of each other in the middle of the fight... then you could say that the deterrence change was a buff on that fight. Until then the change was a nerf in every way imaginable.

The cases you refer to when we can use it more than once within a minute are very rare and do NOT make up for the massive loss of deterrences everywhere else in the game and even in the fights with said special cases.

I do appreciate a response though Lore.

It's a buff for the majority of the playerbase, since they don't use their defensive cooldowns often enough that it would be a nerf, but they may eventually want to use multiple Deterrences inside of a minute.

Deterrence on a regular interval gets a lot more usage than two deterrences back to back within a minute.
Edited by Spinnerdh on 9/27/2013 2:45 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Hunter
21255
09/27/2013 02:08 PMPosted by Lore
It's different now, sure, but we like how the new version is working.

It's a relatively serious problem in PvE. And this goes beyond it being our only defensive cooldown, which is already an anomaly when compared to every other class.

If you make use of both charges, you may be forced to wait for up to six minutes to recover both of them. Abilities with a base cooldown of five minutes or more are reset upon combat ending with a raid boss, as they are considered 'too long' to be forced to wait for.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this already.

Deterrence doesn't reset when combat with a raid boss ends. In order for every pull to have our maximum of defences available, we may need to wait longer than the time defined by the devs at the start of Mists as a 'reasonable' time to wait between attempts.

The only way around this is to spec into Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera. It restores Deterrence, for PvE players, to roughly the state it was in for 5.3 (without being talented), and reduces the max-time-to-recharge below the dev-intended maximum cooldown wait. So it's become even more mandatory than it already was, and using an untalented Deterrence in raids is a pretty serious annoyance (especially when there's mechanics like Swirl which you may be Deterrencing through about once every 90-120 seconds).

Plus there's the problem that the intent was seriously misrepresented, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Ghostcrawler's tweet can't be misinterpreted as to what it means -- "two uses every three minutes" is very clear, and is clearly not what we have on live. The proper comparison to the former "one use every two minutes, two uses every five minutes" for how it is on live would be "one use every three minutes, with one extra use at any time".

Saying anything other than that is incorrect, and I hope it's just caused by trouble understanding the charge system, rather than intentional misrepresentation.
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