Divine Aegis is too strong.

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
hi guys


Hi shorty!
100 Draenei Priest
11970
I posted this thread then went camping for the weekend. What have I done.
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I posted this thread then went camping for the weekend. What have I done.


Must have been a short camping trip, since you posted in it 3 hours ago. :D
100 Draenei Priest
11970
10/06/2013 06:57 PMPosted by Tiriel
I posted this thread then went camping for the weekend. What have I done.


Must have been a short camping trip, since you posted in it 3 hours ago. :D


Maybe I got home three hours ago?
100 Tauren Druid
9610
Absorbs are terrible for this game for other healers. It makes it terribly boring.

Until blizzard makes it where you NEED both absorbs and triage, then it won't be balanced.
Or, blizzard gives everyone absorbs and we have a stale game where everyone is essentially the same.

Can't ever make everybody happy. Aint nobody got time fro dat
Edited by Tonydanza on 10/6/2013 7:13 PM PDT
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
I'm kind of getting to the point where I wish blizzard would just disable combat logs so people would quit whining about meters.
90 Night Elf Druid
11835
I'm kind of getting to the point where I wish blizzard would just disable combat logs so people would quit whining about meters.


So that no one's performance could be assessed ever again..?
90 Human Priest
9300
I'm going to reply to the initial question at hand because I can't read 25 pages of posts lol... first of all if a priest is trying to DA spam prior to a fight starting they are gunna end up wasting more mana then its worth for a few "meter points" which mean nothing. 2nd of all the reason DA is valued so high is because we don't have the ability to crit 2x heal. This means that we don't have very strong reactive heals which is precisely where a absorb based healer should be. Overall disc is probably one of the weaker pure hps healing classes primarily used for extra dps/ good cd's etc. Holy by far is stronger for raw hps especially with set bonuses if you stack haste (as seen by jhazrun). You also made a comment about disc not needing spirit? Idk what fights your healing but if your doing any kind of progression/2healing you def need spirit unless your maximizing output which you never do during progression. You also said that our mastery scales off crit and int? what class's heals dont scale off those..... you also said that we benefit the most from gimmick fights? hmm lets see immerseus (disc def doesnt have a advantage)... malkorak (disc is horrible as far as output goes)... trying to think of "gimmick" fights but unless its a boss that has a dmg increase i don't think disc does that well and there aren't any this tier i don't believe. But on the other side of the coin we get then negative against dmg reduction phases such as siegecrafter, norushen (corruption), etc.

I probably spelled a dozen things wrong but the end point is you don't know anything about priests, discs, raiding, or wow in general. Thanks and have a nice day.
90 Human Priest
13720
10/06/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Soholy
if a priest is trying to DA spam prior to a fight starting they are gunna end up wasting more mana then its worth for a few "meter points" which mean nothing.


nobody is doing this. maybe on thok and only a little.

10/06/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Soholy
2nd of all the reason DA is valued so high is because we don't have the ability to crit 2x heal.


i'll address this a few comments down.

10/06/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Soholy
Overall disc is probably one of the weaker pure hps healing classes primarily used for extra dps/ good cd's etc.


I can agree with this in some instances, and disc can certainly be more punishing when you get "caught with your pants down" so to speak, but pure hps is a silly metric when disc can provide both a fair amount of raw healing (through mastery increasing both direct output and absorb amount) and effective healing (strong aegis and pw:s)

10/06/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Soholy
You also made a comment about disc not needing spirit? Idk what fights your healing but if your doing any kind of progression/2healing you def need spirit unless your maximizing output which you never do during progression.


not every comment is directed to the 10 man point of view. that being said, in both formats discs have been able to drop at least a fair amount of spirit, far more than almost any other class aside from monks.

You also said that our mastery scales off crit and int? what class's heals dont scale off those....


this is what i was going to answer before. i think you're missing the point. our mastery scales off crit probably better than almost any class for a few reasons:

1) Mastery increases directly our baseline heal percentage linearly as well as increasing the absorb amount. this means it buffs itself, so to speak. therefore:
2) crit (and int, since it increases both spellpower and crit directly) will buff your mastery by causing it to be applied more often and divine aegis has the lowest overheal of any crit bonus. essentially it has almost no overheal ever because it is absorbed first.
3) so what this means is that since mastery is buffed by crit, and supposing divine aegis has EXTREMELY low overheal, our crit heals more often than not result in a benefit that can exceed an extra 100% of the original amount (like other healers have -- crit = 200% heal) to become 130% or even nearly 140% of the original heal itself.

10/06/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Soholy
But on the other side of the coin we get then negative against dmg reduction phases such as siegecrafter, norushen (corruption), etc.


quick note: getting purified (at least last i checked) as disc causes your heals to double dip from atonement, resulting in greater healing since you are posessed of both the 100% damage to norushen and the extra healing bonus, which ties into the divine aegis you're applying to all your raid members through crit/mastery.

also nazgrim berserker stance has a +damage modifier, disc can help out on things like weapons on garrosh, thok fixate phases and spoils damage far more readily than holy. that's not to say that holy isn't a good spec either, but your biases are a bit skewed, imo.
100 Night Elf Druid
9600
are we there yet? :D
90 Night Elf Druid
13525
are we there yet? :D


NO! Now don't ask me again! Or I will PULL THIS THREAD OVER!
90 Night Elf Druid
11835
omg so close

Who's down for part 2?

(please no one answer that)
(inb4 tippz makes a part 2)
90 Goblin Priest
5720
you also said that we benefit the most from gimmick fights? hmm lets see immerseus (disc def doesnt have a advantage)


lol what
same access to level 90 talents plus atonement hitting anyone within 40 yards of the boss
good try
100 Night Elf Priest
13955
Mistweavers, Shaman and Druids are all better than Disc on that fight, Gangrene. Disc really doesn't have an advantage.
90 Pandaren Priest
8345
10/06/2013 11:22 PMPosted by Gangrene
you also said that we benefit the most from gimmick fights? hmm lets see immerseus (disc def doesnt have a advantage)


lol what
same access to level 90 talents plus atonement hitting anyone within 40 yards of the boss
good try


unable to crit heal blobs, only heals for split phase are halo, penance, flash heal

there are so many reasons not to be disc on immerseus (at least hardmode)

atonement being crap for splits, raid being spread way out during splits so you'll hit one, maybe 2 groups with PoH
Edited by Truelite on 10/6/2013 11:51 PM PDT
100 Tauren Druid
9610


lol what
same access to level 90 talents plus atonement hitting anyone within 40 yards of the boss
good try


unable to crit heal blobs, only heals for split phase are halo, penance, flash heal

there are so many reasons not to be disc on immerseus (at least hardmode)

atonement being crap for splits, raid being spread way out during splits so you'll hit one, maybe 2 groups with PoH


That's a pretty garbage argument.

Using immerseus as any example in the first place is a complete garbage argument. Has anybody every wiped to this joke of a boss? Seriously.

Every single heal spec can heal up enough adds fast enough. There's litterally no serious advantage here for any spec. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise, outside of some utility/gimmicky crap (LoH pallies etc)

You really just scream that you're grasping at straws when you start your argument with "unable to crit heal" LOL. Crit is irrelevent on blobs. they're a joke. Even on my misweaver - who runs what I would imagine is far higher crit than any other heal spec in the game - I've had ZERO problem healin blobs.

Anyone who uses this fight as any argument for anything is completely full of crap. I've yet to ever see any wipe during this fight. Seriously, go back and look at my logs; I had to afk for the first 20 minutes of a raid due to life; My raid 9 manned it without my knowledge and I still never died.
Immerseus is the biggest stupid pathetic joke I've ever seen for a raid boss. You have to be a lobotomized handicapped cockroach to complain about healing blobs being too difficult. Maybe learn to heal, instead of do nothing but spam penance and PW:S?
FFs, can't crit them. LOL!

atonement being crap for splits, raid being spread way out during splits so you'll hit one, maybe 2 groups with PoH

Explain how this is any different for any other healer. outside of gimmicky beacon heals.

It's not. Quit reaching.

In 10man, I am routinely only in range of MAX 3-4 players. This is less than PoH. In 25man, you'd have farr better luck. But even still, if you break it down to 10man you can organize groups well enough that you can easily optimize groups for a disc priest. The fact of the matter is this fight is just crap. A complete joke. Theres no advantage or disadvantage for disc priests. Quit boohooing please.
Edited by Tonydanza on 10/7/2013 2:01 AM PDT
90 Pandaren Priest
8345
hahahaha it's funny how you demand to be treated with respect then come in here spewing some bull!@#$ like that.

you are by far the dumbest person on these forums, and that's a position that many, many people are actively fighting for. you haven't done the fight on 25m or on heroic. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

yes, it's an easy fight, but if anyone here is reaching, it's you. disc absolutely has a disadvantage on that fight in terms of split phase healing (the puddles have 1m health on 25H, good luck fully healing even two). and hey, guess what, failing the split phase is where the majority of the damage on that fight comes from.

just for you: my 537 mastery-gemmed priest (perfectly reasonable, possibly a bit low for SoO heroics, and probably around 10% raw healing I wouldn't have with a crit build) does about 100k with FH (with Grace), 150k with penance (again, with Grace), and 165k with halo, self-buffed. even in raid buffs an estimate of 7 casts per ooze isn't too farfetched.

and the truly, truly laughable part is that you're arguing that a MW is bad for split phase. except that crit for MW translates to raw throughput (hint: it doesn't for disc) and I can effortlessly pull 160k HPS before crits with healing sphere spam at 10 ilvls lower. MW is by far the best healer for that gimmick.

just to rub it in even more: i have 31% raid buffed crit on my monk. assuming that translates, over time, to a direct 31% increase to healing spheres, i can have a blob healed to full in 2.5 seconds. since no disc priest is going to favor haste, and crit is literally worthless for them on that gimmick, being very generous and assuming it only takes them 5 casts to fully heal an ooze, that's still about 8 seconds for the first and 6 seconds for every subsequent (due to halo).
Edited by Truelite on 10/7/2013 2:48 AM PDT
100 Night Elf Priest
13955
You might want to calm down and consider the context, Tony, before jumping down anyone's throat. I also seriously hope you're trolling, because you're basically pointlessly shaming anyone whose raid team has struggled with the healing on that fight. I'm sure there are plenty of raids that find it difficult.

The original claim, author unknown (I'm too tired and lazy to dig back through the thread), was that Discipline had no advantage on Immerseus—considered a gimmick fight. It was flawed, definitely, and it's the wrong sort of gimmick fight, but there you have it.

Gangrene popped in to disagree, and claim that Disc Priests have access to the same talents and Atonement being able to hit everyone is advantage enough.

Truelite's counters were absolutely legitimate in the face of that claim. Regardless of the difficulty of the boss, a disadvantage is a disadvantage. He also spoke to raid difficulty (hardmode) and size (25M), neither of which have you experienced.

Discipline is going to get the adds up more slowly than other specs simply because they have the weakest raw healing throughput potential. I'm sure your Mistweaver doesn't have issues; I'm also sure that a high crit chance is probably really beneficial to you because it takes a lot of RNG off the table. Unfortunately, our crits don't do the same thing and aren't beneficial on the blobs.

You might also want to take a moment to distinguish the difference between someone complaining that the fight is difficult, and someone making a correct argument about one spec's shortcomings on a specific, already-in-discussion fight.

If you really want to get into comparisons:

Resto Druids, Mistweavers and Resto Shaman have a larger range of motion than Discipline during split phases. I'd be surprised if a Disc Priest were actually able to hit 3-4 players with PoH on 10M unless they were able to drop it on a melee who happened to be within 30 yards of a few ranged; thankfully, that's easier on 25M—but every other class will also have it much easier than on 10M.

As a Resto Druid, you can also heal while moving.

Every non-Disc spec is going to be faster at getting the blobs up than Disc.

If the raid is taking a beating because people didn't get a sufficient number of adds down, Disc has Halo or Cascade. That's it. No raid saving ability. Now, if groups have been appropriately sorted (which should be considered mandatory for any spread fight), a Discipline Priest can absolutely keep their individual group alive. They just aren't going to be able to do much of anything for anyone else. Revival, Tranq, HTT, Divine Hymn...all blow it out of the water.

Paladins are in a similar boat in terms of healing just after the blobs reach the center (and are better off when healing the adds). Spread healing just isn't their strength—and that's okay. Just like it's okay for Discipline to have its shortcomings.

TL;DR:

Disc can get the job done, but is less effective on that particular encounter than any other spec.

It's better to be able and willing to acknowledge a spec's cons than to dismiss them simply because a fight isn't considered difficult by a certain subset of players, and worsen that dismissal with blatant condescension.
Edited by Elethia on 10/7/2013 2:43 AM PDT
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
10/07/2013 01:55 AMPosted by Tonydanza
Every single heal spec can heal up enough adds fast enough.


While a Disc Priest might be adequate to do the job, you would be better off bringing any other spec for this fight.
90 Pandaren Priest
8345
i skipped half of his post and now i'm going back and reading it and it's just something magical

oh no imminent cap and it had just gotten so good too :c
Edited by Truelite on 10/7/2013 2:43 AM PDT
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