Please Ban Gearscore From the Game

100 Dwarf Priest
6845
OK, I honestly don't get these threads. And I'm going to try and explain why. This may well come across as a bit... nasty. But I don't mean it that way, OK? Don't shoot the messenger. This really is how this thread, and many like it, have come across to me.

So, I'm going to use an analogy. WoW is like a big playground full of kids. And we are all in this playground playing our silly games. Stay with me here. Now one bunch of kids decided to get a game together, and were looking out for some other kids to play with them.

You asked them if you could play. And they said no.

And now you're here on the forums demanding Blizzard (the teachers in this analogy) to do something about this situation.

Seriously, that's how it looks to me.

So first of all, there will always be people who will reject others from their groups for all kinds of silly reasons, and it's not exactly reasonable to expect Blizzard to help you there. And even if they could - well, think back to the playground analogy. Would you really want them to?

I can think of a couple of reasons why I wouldn't want to be in a group with requirements like that, myself. But I digress.

Next, gearscore. You're complaining that gearscore automated the process of rejecting you.

I'll accept it for now and will come back to that point in a moment. But... honestly, what difference would removing gearscore make to your situation? They rejected you... what did you say? ... "because I'm not wearing tier ten armor". Well, they hardly needed gearscore, did they? Right-click inspect is a perfectly good way to determine that you're not wearing tier ten armor.

So what exactly is the point of complaining that gearscore automated this process? I don't understand.

As for comparing gearscore to decursive. Well, it's a curious line of argument, but I don't think it holds water. Decursive didn't get banned because it automated just anything per sé. It got banned specifically because it automated a combat decision making process. Gearscore doesn't automate the decision - it just provides the information. There are plenty of add-ons that do that.

Maybe if gearscore had automated the decision, then you would have been invited. ;)

Finally (for completeness, even though it's already been said by others), given that Naxx is "trivial", why not just form your own group? From a group with a bunch of people who share some of your attitudes to the game and to life. You might enjoy your run a lot more.

People complain that socialisation in WoW is dead. It's not dead - there just isn't a convenient in-game tool for it. :p

TLDR: There will always be people who reject others from groups for what you regard as a silly reason, such as listening to the wrong music, but there's no point in trying to get anyone to do anything about it, and banning a mod certainly won't "fix" it.
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85 Undead Mage
8555
I heard there is a correlation between item level and stat level?
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77 Dwarf Death Knight
1995
OK, I honestly don't get these threads. And I'm going to try and explain why. This may well come across as a bit... nasty. But I don't mean it that way, OK? Don't shoot the messenger. This really is how this thread, and many like it, have come across to me.

So, I'm going to use an analogy. WoW is like a big playground full of kids. And we are all in this playground playing our silly games. Stay with me here. Now one bunch of kids decided to get a game together, and were looking out for some other kids to play with them.

You asked them if you could play. And they said no.

And now you're here on the forums demanding Blizzard (the teachers in this analogy) to do something about this situation.

Seriously, that's how it looks to me.

So first of all, there will always be people who will reject others from their groups for all kinds of silly reasons, and it's not exactly reasonable to expect Blizzard to help you there. And even if they could - well, think back to the playground analogy. Would you really want them to?

I can think of a couple of reasons why I wouldn't want to be in a group with requirements like that, myself. But I digress.

Next, gearscore. You're complaining that gearscore automated the process of rejecting you.

I'll accept it for now and will come back to that point in a moment. But... honestly, what difference would removing gearscore make to your situation? They rejected you... what did you say? ... "because I'm not wearing tier ten armor". Well, they hardly needed gearscore, did they? Right-click inspect is a perfectly good way to determine that you're not wearing tier ten armor.

So what exactly is the point of complaining that gearscore automated this process? I don't understand.

As for comparing gearscore to decursive. Well, it's a curious line of argument, but I don't think it holds water. Decursive didn't get banned because it automated just anything per sé. It got banned specifically because it automated a combat decision making process. Gearscore doesn't automate the decision - it just provides the information. There are plenty of add-ons that do that.

Maybe if gearscore had automated the decision, then you would have been invited. ;)

Finally (for completeness, even though it's already been said by others), given that Naxx is "trivial", why not just form your own group? From a group with a bunch of people who share some of your attitudes to the game and to life. You might enjoy your run a lot more.

People complain that socialisation in WoW is dead. It's not dead - there just isn't a convenient in-game tool for it. :p

TLDR: There will always be people who reject others from groups for what you regard as a silly reason, such as listening to the wrong music, but there's no point in trying to get anyone to do anything about it, and banning a mod certainly won't "fix" it.



If it takes it this long to get your point across you lose.
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100 Dwarf Priest
6845
If it takes it this long to get your point across you lose.


I had several points, not just one, but thanks for the friendly advice. So, what do I lose exactly?
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77 Dwarf Death Knight
1995
If it takes it this long to get your point across you lose.


I had several points, not just one, but thanks for the friendly advice. So, what do I lose exactly?


Write a post to the forums, not a book.
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100 Dwarf Priest
6845
I got your point, thanks. Got anything else constructive to add, or are you just trolling now?
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85 Night Elf Druid
7515
I heard GearScore stops people that would otherwise invite you to their group from inviting you.

I also heard it is the cause of every major war for the past 300 years, is keeping auto manufacturers from releasing a super-efficient car, started global warming, and kicked your dog.

Complaining about GearScore is like yelling at a baseball bat after I beat your face in with it for complaining about GearScore.
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77 Dwarf Death Knight
1995
I got your point, thanks. Got anything else constructive to add, or are you just trolling now?


No that was the only constructive thing I had to add, thank you.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
0
OK, I honestly don't get these threads. And I'm going to try and explain why. This may well come across as a bit... nasty. But I don't mean it that way, OK? Don't shoot the messenger. This really is how this thread, and many like it, have come across to me.

So, I'm going to use an analogy. WoW is like a big playground full of kids. And we are all in this playground playing our silly games. Stay with me here. Now one bunch of kids decided to get a game together, and were looking out for some other kids to play with them.

You asked them if you could play. And they said no.

And now you're here on the forums demanding Blizzard (the teachers in this analogy) to do something about this situation.

Seriously, that's how it looks to me.

So first of all, there will always be people who will reject others from their groups for all kinds of silly reasons, and it's not exactly reasonable to expect Blizzard to help you there. And even if they could - well, think back to the playground analogy. Would you really want them to?

I can think of a couple of reasons why I wouldn't want to be in a group with requirements like that, myself. But I digress.

Next, gearscore. You're complaining that gearscore automated the process of rejecting you.

I'll accept it for now and will come back to that point in a moment. But... honestly, what difference would removing gearscore make to your situation? They rejected you... what did you say? ... "because I'm not wearing tier ten armor". Well, they hardly needed gearscore, did they? Right-click inspect is a perfectly good way to determine that you're not wearing tier ten armor.

So what exactly is the point of complaining that gearscore automated this process? I don't understand.

As for comparing gearscore to decursive. Well, it's a curious line of argument, but I don't think it holds water. Decursive didn't get banned because it automated just anything per sé. It got banned specifically because it automated a combat decision making process. Gearscore doesn't automate the decision - it just provides the information. There are plenty of add-ons that do that.

Maybe if gearscore had automated the decision, then you would have been invited. ;)

Finally (for completeness, even though it's already been said by others), given that Naxx is "trivial", why not just form your own group? From a group with a bunch of people who share some of your attitudes to the game and to life. You might enjoy your run a lot more.

People complain that socialisation in WoW is dead. It's not dead - there just isn't a convenient in-game tool for it. :p

TLDR: There will always be people who reject others from groups for what you regard as a silly reason, such as listening to the wrong music, but there's no point in trying to get anyone to do anything about it, and banning a mod certainly won't "fix" it.


Lemme give you a hypothetical.

Let's suppose that somebody figured out how to calculate the score of your resume from its contents, by using a computer program that scanned your resume, picked up key words, and graded you into a numerical score.

You can take a minute to pause right here and ask yourself - "How can this number ever be accurate? there are too many ways that it could fail or be abused!"

Now let's suppose that someone found a way to guarantee your resume lands you a job interview.

Suddenly, every employer in your city has their job interview time filled up by people who paid to have their resume pass the scan. There is no way that you can be judged as who you are, because you don't meet the standards set by a machine.

Even if you, say, are very competent at what your job actually requires, not the ridiculously shallow prerequisites that a computer requires, (I'm looking at you, MSCE certifications!) you will never obtain an interview until you stoop to the level of the incompetent and desperate, ad by then it's too late, because jobs that should be piloted by competent people are instead filled by those who are far more likely to damage a company.

Everyone suffers because the system revolves around a machine that is inherently flawed.

Now I want you to explain to me why this is acceptable in wow, and downright encouraged.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
7835
1) Gearscore has improved the average quality and quantity of pug raids on many servers.

2) Gearscore is simply the most convenient of the numerous ways to judge you by your gear.

3) The only way to prevent you from being judged by your gear is to remove gear from the game.

4) Inspecting is just broken period.

5) Blizzard is not responsible for directing the course of human interaction.

6) The standard gearscore minimums established by the faceless masses is entirely reasonable in it's ease to obtain.


1) No, it has done nothing of the sort. Wrath increased the viability of PuGs, with or without Gearscore.

2) It is convenient, but so is judging a book by its cover. Take the extra minute to read what it's about and you may find something completely different.

3) Gearscore doesn't judge gear, it judges iLvls. My ilvl 200 trinket was, for a long time, one of the BiS for mages.

4) Then why inspect at all? Gearscore included.

5) The decursive argument was a good one.

6) For Naxx? People started off raiding Naxx in blues.

The ratio of positive aspects of gearscore is heavily outweighed by the negative aspects, and the Gearscore mod has an overall negative impact on the WoW community. That alone is a good enough reason to ban it.
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85 Night Elf Druid
7515

Lemme give you a hypothetical.
Let's suppose that somebody figured out how to calculate the score of your resume from its contents, by using a computer program that scanned your resume, picked up key words, and graded you into a numerical score.
You can take a minute to pause right here and ask yourself - "How can this number ever be accurate? there are too many ways that it could fail or be abused!"
Now let's suppose that someone found a way to guarantee your resume lands you a job interview.
Suddenly, every employer in your city has their job interview time filled up by people who paid to have their resume pass the scan. There is no way that you can be judged as who you are, because you don't meet the standards set by a machine.
Even if you, say, are very competent at what your job actually requires, not the ridiculously shallow prerequisites that a computer requires, (I'm looking at you, MSCE certifications!) you will never obtain an interview until you stoop to the level of the incompetent and desperate, ad by then it's too late, because jobs that should be piloted by competent people are instead filled by those who are far more likely to damage a company.
Everyone suffers because the system revolves around a machine that is inherently flawed.
Now I want you to explain to me why this is acceptable in wow, and downright encouraged.

Your analogy would work if you could lie to GearScore about what gear you were wearing.

To more accurately use your analogy it would be like if everyone instead of lieing went and got a Phd from some online college while you dropped out of high school.

Instead of going to the same online school that is cheap and gives you a Phd in a week you came here to complain about the system that checks the resumes. If the system were removed you would still be a high school dropout too lazy to do 10 hours of online courses and everyone else would still have a job.

No business is going to take you over the other guy no matter how much "better" you are at whatever the hell you're doing.

Throughout all of this there are the people that went to a big time university "people in raiding guilds" but they spent time getting to know the people running the businesses and don't need to apply for a job "Pug raids"
Edited by Pleasepetme on 11/10/2010 12:01 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Priest
0

Your analogy would work if you could lie to GearScore about what gear you were wearing.

To more accurately use your analogy it would be like if everyone instead of lieing went and got a Phd from some online college while you dropped out of high school.

Instead of going to the same online school that is cheap and gives you a Phd in a week you came here to complain about the system that checks the resumes. If the system were removed you would still be a high school dropout too lazy to do 10 hours of online courses and everyone else would still have a job.

No business is going to take you over the other guy no matter how much "better" you are at whatever the hell you're doing.


lying on your resume would be equivalent to wearing a 230 trinket for another class while being inspected only to switch back to your cannonball runner after you get the invite.

And god help us all if online universities hand out phd's in a week and those actually GET you a job.
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85 Night Elf Druid
7515
Hey I'm not the one too lazy to spend 10 hours gearing out my toon in T10 and getting gems/enchants that aren't garbage.

I'm also not the one complaining about a tool and not the person wielding it.

Like you said "The only reason to do Naxx is for the achievements" Obviously they wanted their achievement run to be a guarantee and not take a chance on anyone.

If I have 2 people and I don't know about the skill of either (asking doesnt help since they could just lie to me) I will take the one with better gear and more boss kills.

It's just my way of attempting to stack the deck in my favor. If you can come up with a better system for doing it, then by all means do it and stop complaining about the one we have now.
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85 Undead Hunter
5395
GS requirements to pugs is just the raid leaders way of setting a standard he wants the participants to achieve before he (or she, sorry ladies for leaving you out at frist) raids with you.
I kind of see it more like the playground analogy - I think it fits. If you get denied access to participate in the game with certain people, move on, find another group of people, or like others say start your own raid.
I have never ran a raid, despite having knowledge of several of the raids in WotLK/BC; I just choose not too because I don't want that kind of BS which comes with it. If you are not willing to start a raid, don't be mad because you do not meet the requirements of those willing to run raids.
This thread is not just about GS, the OP is trying to prove that GS has removed social aspects from the game when in reality GS has only provided a means to an end for some people. Some people hate it, others love it. Either do something about it, or shut up about it. It isn't ruining any aspect of the game, it is merely a tool which is provided to people for greater ease at the game they play. A means to an end.
Edited by Ental on 11/10/2010 12:17 AM PST
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100 Dwarf Priest
6845

Lemme give you a hypothetical.

Let's suppose that somebody figured out how to calculate the score of your resume from its contents ... [snip]
Now I want you to explain to me why this is acceptable in wow, and downright encouraged.


I'm pretty sure you don't need a hypothetical... there are firms out there right now who hire people using inappropriate or badly judged criteria right now. Everything from a single exam score (the very example you gave) all the way through to gut feel.

Yet, should exam scores and gut feel be somehow banned? They are appropriate tools to use - just not by themselves.

Now your hypothetical example is pretty hard to evaluate, because the whole idea of a program that can somehow deduce a score from a resumé is a long way from realistic. But I'd like to point out as well that the aims of a company hiring someone for a full-time position are very different from the aims of a raid leader trying to find someone for the next couple of hours. Guild leaders recruiting people would be a far closer analogy.

And I don't see many guild leaders using gearscore as their sole recruitment tool, personally.

And why is that? It wouldn't work at all, for the same reason your hypothetical example wouldn't work.

Why do you think gearscore is used by PUG leaders and not by guild leaders?
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85 Dwarf Paladin
9830
There's no way to ban Gearscore without removing Inspect or at least important interface features that serve real purposes. It's just not feasible. The best solution is what they're trying now: supporting a less ##!*ty official version so that all the idiots will go "SEE? BLIZZ SAYS MY GEAR IS GOOD ENOUGH BECAUSE ILVL" until people stop wasting their breath on gearscore.
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85 Night Elf Druid
7515
The blizz version is even worse than GS.

At least GS looks at only what is on your toon instead of the highest ilvl item in your possesion for each slot.

It also allows you to see if the stats on the gear are halfway decent for you and what bosses you have killed at a quick glance.

GS also weights you gear by slot giving you more for a weapon than bracers for example.

Blizzard just averages the highest ilvl gear in your possession (this includes items you wouldn't even use for that spec)
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