Healer and meters

91 Pandaren Monk
8785
Why are meter a terrible way to assess healer potency? I hear it a lot but don't understand why, because most simi-hardcore guilds I been in uses meters to reward healer for loot.

I have never been one to top meters, because I will only cast when its needed; if there is little damage i don't heal much and sometimes dps if possible.

I use to raid with a druid that would go oom if the fight lasted a little longer then expected. He always was "pedal to the metal" healing. I like to FW the first 30 seconds of most fight, which can bring down my HPS a little. Most fights his HPS was 10-15% higher then mine, unless it was a really healing intensive fight.
Edited by Samchi on 10/6/2013 2:50 PM PDT
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98 Draenei Paladin
10535
This is a rather tricky question, meters are not useless for judging a healers ability's but raw HPS output is not the only thing that matters when looking at how effective a healer is on a fight.

PS: any guild that hands out healer loot based on meter's is not a guild you want to stay with
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90 Human Priest
17730
Meters aren't everything. I look at overhealing, and how OOM healers are at the end.

If you top meters but scream for mana CDs during the fight, or go OOM before it ends - you're doing it wrong.

If all 3 healers are OOM at the end - that's probably a hard to heal fight!

I don't think meters are everything because you can heal stupidly/waste mana to be higher.

I do expect at the end though all healers are within 5-7% of eachother. If anyone is further then that behind, they need to step up their game a little.
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91 Pandaren Monk
8785
PS: any guild that hands out healer loot based on meter's is not a guild you want to stay with


thats why I left that guild :). Plus towards the end the raid leader would go off on me for every little thing even when we weren't raiding. He expected everyone to rank on fights including healers and was replacing dps because they weren't matching or within 5% of ranked players, except for a couple of friends he had in the raid team. Including an OT that couldn't tank. A lot of our wipes were attributed to said OT.
Edited by Samchi on 10/6/2013 4:56 PM PDT
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91 Pandaren Monk
8785
If all 3 healers are OOM at the end - that's probably a hard to heal fight!


We usually 2 healed fights

I do expect at the end though all healers are within 5-7% of eachother. If anyone is further then that behind, they need to step up their game a little.


Like I said 3 heals we were probably withing 5-10% depending on the fight, but when we two healed it could be as higher for example 137K (druid) to 125K/80K dps (Me), but sometimes I would be higher depending on the fight.

I know dpriest can be lower on 3 healing fights but they are stronger because they let melee dps be stupid without dying.
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91 Pandaren Monk
8785
I think blizzard has a different view overall, because people always complain about healers having 20% different hps, and blizzard responds with meters doesn't measure the worth of a healer.

Avabelle, if healers are within 5-7% of each other than it’s no different than measuring dps. Because most dps will be within 5-10% of each other. Looking at your progress, you seem to belong to a semi-hardcore to hardcore raiding group. Based on your statement it lead me think that meters matters to you. This why I don't understand why blues always post they don't measure healing well, when most guilds rely on it. I am not stating one way or another I just don't understand the discount between Blizzard and raiding guilds in regard to meters. Trying to understand what Blizz said was valid or just an excuse why healers aren’t better balanced.
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100 Tauren Druid
9540
Why are meter a terrible way to assess healer potency? I hear it a lot but don't understand why, because most simi-hardcore guilds I been in uses meters to reward healer for loot.


Healing meters are not simple. It's not a dps meter by means of just what can you pump out; Meters depend on composition of healer, what types of heals are there? Do you have 2 absorb healers and a throughput one? What encounter?
Also consider this; If a raid does a complete perfect job of avoiding damage, do you think you'll be able to do 120k HPS? No you won't. And according to the quote I've used, that makes you a bad healer and not worthy of loot.

Meters are a good metric when you delve into specifics. They're a terrible blanket outlook by 99% of tools who like to fap on the meters, boast and/or predict healer production/worthiness based entirely on the outlook of raw HPS, example;

Most people who only care about HPS meter will see that I lag behind my cohealers on Galakras. If you delve into specifics, you might realize I r competing with absorb heals during the low damage phase, resulting in near zero healing for my throughput class. This is 90% of the fight. (I also run the towers, for whatever that's worth)
The last phase of the fight is where the real damage is. If you just look at the blanket hps, youll see I did worse.
If you look specifically I did more healing when it really mattered than the other healers did. Even though they beat me in overall.

On the reverse side of things; I probably do about 60k more HPS than the next closest healer on Iron Juggernaught. This is consistent every week (both situations)

So, anyone who just cares about raw HPS metric is fulla crap. It's junk. The only thing it has a use for is just measuring some pug you don't care about. If you're on a real team, meters mean nothing at all for healers. Logs do.
Edited by Tonydanza on 10/6/2013 6:35 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13825
Meters don't matter because how much healing a healer does is entirely dependent on the fight, how good your raid is at avoiding/mitigating damage, how many healers you bring and what types of healers you bring.

What Blizz is saying is that you cannot judge healers like a DPS. If a DPS spec is capable of X damage on a fight, you can compare how much damage a DPS is doing to the theoretical X (or how other DPSers of the same spec are doing). For healers, a player could be doing 40k HPS on a fight one day and 80k the next and have been perfectly fine both times.

Healing meters can be a useful tool, but only in combination with other information. Like, you would expect a Disc priest to fall behind HoT classes, probably significantly, on Malkorok. If your 3 healing and the 3rd healer is significantly behind, it just might mean that you're overhealing the fight and can afford to drop the 3rd healer in favor of a DPS. If there is little damage going out, absorb healers will constantly sit at the top just because they're absorbing everything, leaving nothing to heal.

TL;DR

All Blizz is saying is that you can't just look at a healer and say "You're only doing X HPS, you're bad," like you can say with DPS "You're only doing X DPS, you're bad." Meters are good info for healers, but without knowing all the info, meters alone are not good measuring tools for a healer.

Edit: My pony is slow. Damn you Tony :)
Edited by Hainiryuun on 10/6/2013 6:44 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
6830
Looking at overhealing to judge healing is probably the worst way to judge a healer... Us druids overheal a ton compared to a disc or rshammy.

You should look at dispells and everything.
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100 Human Paladin
17020
HPS depends on damage taken in a fight, so imagine if your team is very geared or dodging everything right and your tanks have good mitigation, your HPS will look pretty average.

On the other side, a fight full of crazy damage requiring crazy healing will show very impressive HPS and who was able to do it.

The only time to compare HPS its to see who in your team is making the most effort I guess, however you also have to take into account class unique-ness, mastery, shield or no shields, gear, major cooldowns.

You can also check their active time on World of Logs, what spells they used and why etc.

I'd say, you know if a healer isn't doing to well if first your main/top healers say its a struggle with them and then you check the numbers. Sometimes numbers are checked if people continue to die as well and determine who was responsible really (dps stupidity teehee or healer slowness).

In the end, if your team is doing well and killing bosses, numbers aren't a prob. They become a prob when you make them a prob but theres only so much dmg to heal, and one of the healers will heal it first (I for example have a lot of big, instant crit heals to piss off the HoT-ers lol)

Now...about giving loot to the healer doing the most heals.. thats kinda messed up
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90 Draenei Shaman
15655
Shamans have boost factors that don't show on meters. Druids have battle rez. Etc. Each healing spec brings something unique to the table that DOESN'T show on meters, but the absence of which would be felt. Yes, they may be duplicated by another spec, but they are still something not measured on a meter.

I am not talking buffs, of course. I mean actual abilities. Something as simple as thorns, or an interrupt. These things are not on "HPS" meters, but make a lot of difference to a raid.

The sheer stupidity of giving loot to a healer doing the most heals... That's idiotic. The fight may favor that healer, the mechanics may have screwed another healer, RNG may have screwed something up, Monks are immune to range mechanics if there are enough casters, assignment of CDs may have boosted one over another (druid got to use tranq 3 times, priest only got to use divine hymn 2 times, etc). Any raid doing that is not the way a " simi-hardcore" should be acting.

The healing specs are all unique, all amazing, and should not be measured by HPS. Or DPS. Or Dispels. Or CCs, or interupts, or or OR etc. ALL of those need to be taken into account. I honestly love running with any combination of healers. It's GREAT working out how to sync them for the best effect, and HPS is quite possibly the LAST metric I look for.
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100 Tauren Druid
9540
Looking at overhealing to judge healing is probably the worst way to judge a healer... Us druids overheal a ton compared to a disc or rshammy.


Wait...what?

I don't have the pleasure to raid with a Resto Shammy this tier, sadly, however...Used to top Resto Druid overheals pretty solidly.
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90 Worgen Druid
6830
Looking at overhealing to judge healing is probably the worst way to judge a healer... Us druids overheal a ton compared to a disc or rshammy.


Wait...what?

I don't have the pleasure to raid with a Resto Shammy this tier, sadly, however...Used to top Resto Druid overheals pretty solidly.


IDK ,our RShammy always has the lowest healing : overhealing ratio...
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100 Tauren Druid
9540


Wait...what?

I don't have the pleasure to raid with a Resto Shammy this tier, sadly, however...Used to top Resto Druid overheals pretty solidly.


IDK ,our RShammy always has the lowest healing : overhealing ratio...


The nature of their mastery should still be conductive to quite a ton of overhealing unless you are flat out destroying content by overhealing it (not dropping to 2healing when you should etc) and he just likes to sit there and do nothing most the time?
Not trying to be a dink or anything, just..>RShammies overheal a ton. Unless new glyphed efflo has totally buggered up their HR OH's significantly, I doubt that's changed much this tier
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90 Pandaren Monk
LA
16675
Shaman have far less overhealing on their spells than the other throughput healers outside of healing rain.
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90 Worgen Druid
6830


IDK ,our RShammy always has the lowest healing : overhealing ratio...


The nature of their mastery should still be conductive to quite a ton of overhealing unless you are flat out destroying content by overhealing it (not dropping to 2healing when you should etc) and he just likes to sit there and do nothing most the time?
Not trying to be a dink or anything, just..>RShammies overheal a ton. Unless new glyphed efflo has totally buggered up their HR OH's significantly, I doubt that's changed much this tier


We usually just 3 heal most fights; don't always need to, but w/e.
Efflo snipes most of the stacked healing. There isn't much healing left to do...
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90 Human Priest
6945
If you're 3-healing a fight and 2 of the healers are around 60k-80k range and the other is around 20-30k, your meter is actually worth something then due to seeing that your 3rd healer isn't carrying their weight, forcing the other 2 to pick up the slack. To have to carry another healer, especially 2-healing, can be a HUGE pain in the rear.
That is the only way I can think of that the numbers would matter, showed you who to replace next week.

Other than that 1 reason, as long as your healers are within ball park range of one another I see no reason to really judge any of the healer performances as they all pulled their weight. Healers can't be judged and expected to pull any certain amount of HPS for every fight because their numbers can change drastically from fight to fight. 60k on first boss, 30k on next, just depends on how much health there is to heal in the group.

To better explain, each fight has completely different mechanics and the amount of damage to the raid. This means on the first boss, couple people take a few ticks moving out of bad through the fight and the boss with adds could have light raid damage going out for majority of the raid, meaning the healers have quite a bit to heal during that raid and would cause high HPS for that fight.
Next fight, adds spawn, group downs them while taking light to medium damage spikes during add phases only. The amount they have to heal was pretty much cut in half because if the adds aren't out they are standing around quite a bit throwing a heal at the tanks here n there while, sometimes playing snipe games with the other heals due to boredom. Last fight, say they pulled 70k areas in HPS. This fight, since there was less to heal, they pulled 30-35k HPS range.
Now you go to 3rd boss, which has damage points and spikes, which mechanics change through phases this time. If there was loads to heal, he may pop up 80k+ this fight, or he'd show up between what he had for the other 2 bosses.

Healers can only heal after damage has been taken, otherwise it's shown in overheals. I myself have shown anywhere from 25k HPS up to 72k HPS and everywhere between that. My job as the healer, unlike DPS and Tank roles, I am limited as to what I can do in a fight because I can't heal unless damage is taken. Good group? I'll be low in HPS, but if it's a bad group, or same group has a member or two off their game one week, I could go sky high compared to what my normal average is. Our job depends purely on the damage you take from the encounter and what bad stuff you stand in and how long you stood there.

I hope this helps you understand better as to why HPS numbers are meaningless and give no possible way to set minimum/maximum restrictions on our performances. Should you still have any questions, feel free to ask away! I'd be happy to try giving an answer :)
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
Healing meters qrent like dps meters because there is only a finite amount of healing to be done at a given time.

So if a player/class is good at sniping heals during low damage periods, their numbers will look good relative to other healers. However if that player weren't there another player may be able to pick those numbers up with ease.

The thing you really want to knowx is what healers are doing when it really matters. And that isn't always reflected in recount.

Having said all of that. It's usually not a bad bet to think the healer heaving all of the available heals is also doing a pretty good job in high damage phases.
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90 Troll Priest
7090
10/07/2013 02:21 AMPosted by Aronin
If you're 3-healing a fight and 2 of the healers are around 60k-80k range and the other is around 20-30k, your meter is actually worth something then due to seeing that your 3rd healer isn't carrying their weight, forcing the other 2 to pick up the slack. To have to carry another healer, especially 2-healing, can be a HUGE pain in the rear.


Or incredibly more likely, you don't need that 3rd healer in the first place. For example, back in ToT, we were 3 healing heroic Iron Qon and it was Disc(me)/Rsham/Rdruid and I was doing around 50-60k while the Rsham and Rdruid were 90-100. The Rdruid died without a res left, so the rest of the fight me and the Rsham were easily doing 100-120 a piece.

I just didn't have much to "do" with that raid comp other than triage and barrier, and a well plae spirit shell. But as far as raw throughput, especially on the first phase, I just wasn't needed.

We should have 2 healed.

Same with some heoric horridon attempts, trying to 3 heal left our druid in the dumps of the meters. When we switched to just me/druid, we were fairly even with me pulling ahead because of gimmicks (atonement + direcall being on a 1minute CD).

My argument here, is that it isn't always the case that the healers are weak if they're significantly lower on the meters. There is a lot more than needs to be assessed but it could be that you're overhealing the fight.
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83 Dwarf Priest
8945
There was a Professor Putricide fight that I ran as shadow back in the day. When I looked at the meters for the people in my group, I was top HPS for all of them.

Did that mean I was the best healer for my group? Of course not. Could you just put 2 shadow priests in each group and not bring healers? Of course not. So, why was I topping the HPS charts as shadow?

As it turns out, averaging things over time is great for analyzing data sets where a thing that is very small compared to another thing slowly chips away at the bigger thing. The prime example for that sort of thing in WoW is the Patchwork style fight. The boss rolls in and stays put, so all the DPS can just unload without moving or target switching or any other things which would complicate the data set.

The more target switching, and moving, and health pool resets you see, basically anything that isn't just standing and letting the small attacks chip away at the boss health pool, the less valuable a DPS meter becomes in analyzing the fight. The other goals of staying alive, or reaching mini objectives trump DPS.

Boss health pools are very large compared to the size of player attacks, so in a raid fight you end up spending a lot of time in situations where the DPS meter makes sense. Player health pools are not that large compared to the size of a player heal, so in a raid fight you end up spending very little time in situations where the HPS meter makes sense.

For healers, timing cooldowns, target selection, dispels, basically focusing on keeping the risk of death for your raid group down, is much more important than the HPS meter.
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