How much haste is too much? (Ret)

90 Tauren Paladin
10070
I've run into a few ret paladins that started gemming Mastery Over Haste in SoO. They're in mostly SoO NWarforged/Heroic/HWarforged, and seem to be doing fantastic numbers.

I can't find anything discussing mastery ever becoming more valuable to haste, and because of the value of haste affecting CDs, AoW Procs, Censure Ticks, etc. Is there even a point where haste become worth less than mastery?

I remember the old talk about hitting 3 seconds CS. Which atleast in this expansion is completely possible, and I'm assuming thats what we want to shoot for. When we get to that point, do we just keep going, would mastery benefit more after this point.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
19235
101% is too much.

Past about 40%, current fight and gear mechanics start making mastery better than more haste. It's not about a 3 second CS.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
Should be noted that for the 40% overtake to be effective, there have to frequently be 4+ targets that you can hit reliably. There's also theory that, with Thok's Tail, crit will be better than mastery since larger crits will increase the size of mastery hits by default.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13670
the mastery stacking method after caping haste is because:
1. at some point haste is less powerful, when your rotation becoming complete and no need extra cd, mastery become empowered.
2. T16 4 piece works very well with mastery
3. at a certain haste cap, your mastery can reach as high around 70, at 70% for example, your mastery effected abilities will deal bonus damage unto 91% additional damage, which is really powerful

normal TV hit for 120k, 70% master = 109,200, TV crit at 240k, 70% mastery = 218,400(just simple math here as an example) edit: this damage is just an example, not actual damage, actual damage from mastery will be higher because its holy spell damage, bypass armour, and resistance(except magical resistance)
Edited by Aladrah on 10/24/2013 10:08 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13670
the only thing debating is whats the right % to cap haste at.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18780
at a 3 second cs, would make the most sense. Although simming your character will be the rest route to take and make a judgement call based on that.

120k tv's...how novel
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8200
Ok, I've read some different reasons why 40% is the "soft" cap for haste. Basically the argument goes that at 40% you will rarely not have something to hit after the gcd is up. I can attest to the fact that there are times that everything will be on cd during normal rotation, but the timing is minimal (and you can always use a ss there to help your healers). Therefore, if you always have something to hit, haste, while theoretically superior, is in practice inferior at that point to mastery and crit. Mastery and crit are still close to equal weights, so basically pick one to stack and go all out, although mastery is more reliable damage, so most stack it over crit.

This is also why cs is a higher priority than judg or exo now; basically because if you prioritize it over the other two, it will be there more often since it has a lower cd.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8200
There's also theory that, with Thok's Tail, crit will be better than mastery since larger crits will increase the size of mastery hits by default.


Can you link this? Was it in EJ?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
Can you link this? Was it in EJ?


Yes, it was. With the site's reformat, I have no idea what page it may be on now, though. And it does make some sense, based on the reasoning I already gave. Again, that's really only with Tail amping up the size of your crits and further padding your mastery.

I'm really considering that route myself, but I've got to be able to get a damned Tail first. >_<
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
10/25/2013 07:37 AMPosted by Maegoree
There's also theory that, with Thok's Tail, crit will be better than mastery since larger crits will increase the size of mastery hits by default.


Can you link this? Was it in EJ?


Exemplar originally posted this:

After many more tweaks and comparisons, the magic wand is Thok's Tail Tip. The bonus damage on crits is what is raising the value of Crit.

No Thok: Haste > Mastery > Crit
Yes Thok: Haste > Crit > Mastery
Even at average of 4 targets Haste and Crit remain ahead of Mastery. There is no climbing miles away.

In T16 normal (no Warforged) up through T16 Heroic, I'm not really finding a point with Thok that Mastery is worthwhile. Even at 4 targets you get Haste > Crit > Mastery - and averaging 4 targets is not exactly common. You need a lot of targets and Heroic Warforged for Crit or Mastery to pass Haste.

Thok + Evil Eye are a powerful combination. In Heroic gear even against 4 targets they beat swapping either for Fusion-Fire's cleave.

Edit:
Oh, unrelated thought I've had lately. At 5HP, you should put TierDS ahead of 5HP TV. This is because if you already have a proc waiting, a TV cannot generate one. So you'll want to dump proc, then HP, then move on.


However, I do think I remember reading that this is not actually the case. I'll do a few more minutes of searching, but no promises.

Edit: A series of posts from Anaxie's thread. Just remember that some people are self-proclaimed "ret Gods"

"Anyone already did some tests on the whole "Crit > Mastery with Thok's Tip Tail" debate ?
I have the trinket but didn't yet have the time to run enough tests unfortunately." - Alviarin

"Ran it through simcraft with different gear levels (heroic non bis, bis, current gear, ect) and simcraft does not agree with exemplar's theory. I have yet to have time to actually test it in LFR(aka fully buffed dummy) but it is not looking good. The main issue with prioritizing crit after 40% haste unbuffed is we will likely see huge swings from fight to fight, as always mastery is the more reliable choice and can be counted on to produce results." -soamazzing

"When has exemplar ever been reliable. The only thing I remember about his sheets and coding in the past is how bug riddled and awful they are." - Anaxie

"Agreed, but anytime there is talk of a different way to do things it's always worth a look/test to see if it is plausible. His theory is logical but in practice I doubt it will hold up. There have been moments in the past where exemplar's ret modeling has proven to be better than Baehales (simcraft ret coder), I believe the major difference was haste related funny enough. In the end I really do not trust anyone's assumptions and I do my own testing anyway but I always keep my ear to the ground for new theories. Example of this is, someone mentioned that we should dump all mastery for Nourshan zerg, I will be testing that in LFR (first time I am hoping to not get picked by RNG gods to get purified) with a Crit>mastery setup." - soamazzing

"They are both terrible. Lets leave my opinion at that. =/"
-Anaxie


Again, keep in mind that anaxie talks a lot of trash.

So there you have it. Sorry for the long post, but I think it's best for people to read it themselves. I think the best advice comes from Soamazzing:

"In the end I really do not trust anyone's assumptions and I do my own testing anyway but I always keep my ear to the ground for new theories."
Edited by Arte on 10/25/2013 8:25 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
"In the end I really do not trust anyone's assumptions and I do my own testing anyway but I always keep my ear to the ground for new theories."


Agreed; best advice possible. That's how I do it, and why I try and present as many different theories as possible in discussions, since some people may not be aware of them. But the more information one has available, the better a decision that can be made.

Arte, you have a timestamps readily available for that discussion from MMO-C? I remember taht being from awhile back, though, when Exemplar first proposed the crit/Thok theory and it's possible that soamazzing's sims were from far enough back that the SimC used was still bugged - and there's recently rumor current (540-4?) is using an incorrect action list for us. Exemplar's theories were probably made using his spreadsheet, and things are usually quite different between the two tools.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
Ok, I've read some different reasons why 40% is the "soft" cap for haste. Basically the argument goes that at 40% you will rarely not have something to hit after the gcd is up. I can attest to the fact that there are times that everything will be on cd during normal rotation, but the timing is minimal (and you can always use a ss there to help your healers). Therefore, if you always have something to hit, haste, while theoretically superior, is in practice inferior at that point to mastery and crit. Mastery and crit are still close to equal weights, so basically pick one to stack and go all out, although mastery is more reliable damage, so most stack it over crit.

This is also why cs is a higher priority than judg or exo now; basically because if you prioritize it over the other two, it will be there more often since it has a lower cd.


This is correct for the most part. I'd like to say that CS>J not only in rotation, but in damage too, at least with my gear.

I'm less certain about haste caps, as I haven't had the need to think about it with my current gear, but the gist of haste capping as I understand it is that capping haste at 50% doesnt give as much benefit per point because as humans with lag and reaction time we cannot take advantage of slightly lower cooldowns beyond a point. People are capping haste where they feel comfortable, and 40% is a fairly common point to do that.

Another thing to note is GCD capping. With the 4pc proccing free DSs, it suddenly becomes harder to use all of our abilities on CD, and thus the value of haste lowers.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9290
10/25/2013 08:39 AMPosted by Grôgnárd
"In the end I really do not trust anyone's assumptions and I do my own testing anyway but I always keep my ear to the ground for new theories."


Agreed; best advice possible. That's how I do it, and why I try and present as many different theories as possible in discussions, since some people may not be aware of them. But the more information one has available, the better a decision that can be made.

Arte, you have a timestamps readily available for that discussion from MMO-C? I remember taht being from awhile back, though, when Exemplar first proposed the crit/Thok theory and it's possible that soamazzing's sims were from far enough back that the SimC used was still bugged - and there's recently rumor current (540-4?) is using an incorrect action list for us. Exemplar's theories were probably made using his spreadsheet, and things are usually quite different between the two tools.


The MMO-C convo was from september 23rd. Exemplar posted theory at EJ on September 11.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
Mmkay, yeah, the version of SimC out at that time had a lot of really bad bugs in it that were devaluing certain stats for no apparent reason. So the conclusions drawn there should be viewed as suspect - but that doesn't mean Exemplar's findings should be taken as gospel, either.
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90 Human Paladin
17050
10/25/2013 08:10 AMPosted by Arte


Can you link this? Was it in EJ?


Exemplar originally posted this:

[i]After many more tweaks and comparisons, the magic wand is Thok's Tail Tip. The bonus damage on crits is what is raising the value of Crit.

No Thok: Haste > Mastery > Crit
Yes Thok: Haste > Crit > Mastery

Even at average of 4 targets Haste and Crit remain ahead of Mastery. There is no climbing miles away.



Is what I felt the first week I got THOk's trinket.
If not for Thok's trinket id go back to the cookie cutter haster mastery build, its reliable and it works.

After many SoO fights and perosnal encounter testing, I personally find balancing my stats around a 25% self buff crit goal very much to my liking. It works, its is very unorthodox when i started gemming and reforging to crit, it has work me.

I agree to this
No Thok: Haste > Mastery > Crit
Yes Thok: Haste > Crit > Mastery
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90 Draenei Paladin
16880
10/25/2013 08:10 AMPosted by Arte
Again, keep in mind that anaxie talks a lot of trash.


Understatement of the year right here. I'd be more inclined to listen to and personally test myself what Exemplar comes up with than anything Anaxie spouts after familiarizing myself with their "work".
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8200
What is kind of frustrating is that after Exemplar made that post, nobody really discussed it and a lot of people continue with mastery>crit.

I do have to admit, that I do find anaxie funny in his general explanations and some of his responses that aren't meant to be overly malicious. But I'm kind of crass like that.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
10/25/2013 01:35 PMPosted by Maegoree
What is kind of frustrating is that after Exemplar made that post, nobody really discussed it and a lot of people continue with mastery>crit.


Worse, it's been lost to all but...Myself, Arte, and you, it seems; meanwhile, Anaxie and his sycophants continue to preach without offering any proof other than "LOLranks."

I am beginning to see the value in shooting for a "soft-cap" of 40% (~17k) haste, but only with 4pT16 adding DS into the standard mix. I still don't even have two pieces of T16, so I'm nowhere near to being able to verify/debunk that theory, but as I'm getting back towards 40% it does feel like the downtime has vanished.

10/25/2013 11:38 AMPosted by Zaturn
I personally find balancing my stats around a 25% self buff crit goal very much to my liking.


Interesting. That's actually what I've been considering going for if I end up going the crit route, as that makes 30% crit raid buffed, which has always seemed like a good spot for us and crit.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10955
Sims tend to agree that Crit has quite a bit of value even before I got t16 4pc. Even now, without Thok, I'm still siming at Crit > Mastery. I thought it was just skewed because of my crappy weapon.

I must be the only Ret with 4pc and no weapon =/
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
I must be the only Ret with 4pc and no weapon =/


Possibly. My sympathies, man.
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