Restoration Shaman T16 4pc Set bonus

90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
I don't do the twitter thing, so figured i'd ask to see if you could question GC on Resto Shaman 4pc. I posted in the bug forums as well with logs. Pretty sure there is something horribly wrong with it. I used it 4 times last night on Garrosh and between all 4 times it did as much healing as a health stone.

edit: as perspective it did 25% as much healing as my trinket .6% to 2.4%. That can't be right.
Edited by Harpoa on 10/8/2013 6:51 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
I (and multiple other people) have been trying to get this feedback through to them about T16 4pc throughout the PTR cycle, but it has been essentially ignored. The 0.6% figure is about what I was seeing in PTR testing; in essence, nothing has been done about the set bonus.

Our 4pc bonus is 1/4 to 1/10 as strong as that of other healers. The healing duplication is only about 25% of the value of the initial heal (on top of the fact that it only works with HW, HS, CH and GHW to begin with). On top of that, 3 of the 5 set pieces are awfully itemized (i.e. have mastery on them). The set bonus needs at least a 400% buff (if not closer to 1000%) before it will be worth taking over better itemized offset pieces.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I (and multiple other people) have been trying to get this feedback through to them about T16 4pc throughout the PTR cycle, but it has been essentially ignored. The 0.6% figure is about what I was seeing in PTR testing; in essence, nothing has been done about the set bonus.

Our 4pc bonus is 1/4 to 1/10 as strong as that of other healers. The healing duplication is only about 25% of the value of the initial heal (on top of the fact that it only works with HW, HS, CH and GHW to begin with). On top of that, 3 of the 5 set pieces are awfully itemized (i.e. have mastery on them). The set bonus needs at least a 400% buff (if not closer to 1000%) before it will be worth taking over better itemized offset pieces.


I'd disagree with you about the Holy Priest 4pc if your'e a 25 man Priest (since it really does absolutely nothing to Sanc), but...

I don't understand why they keep tying "throughput" CDs to mobility CDs for Shaman!

Yes, please, Devs, I would LOVE to have my only throughput CD tied to my ability to move and heal at the same time! I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong with this idea!

-_-

I really hope you guys get through. I don't think our Shaman has 4pc yet, so...
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
I think it is something more than that though. Look at the GHW cast.

Greater Healing Wave

0 0.0 % -1 0.0 0 1 0.0 0 100.0 %

It was 100% overheal but no healing was registered at all.

So you are basically saying they are going the route of the HST issue and will not comment or acknowledge there is any type of issue with it at all?

Very disappointing. I still am going to ticket bomb them daily looking for an answer regardless.

edit: average CH hit was 7.8k.

43 7862.2
Edited by Harpoa on 10/7/2013 2:10 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
The output from the 4pc is such complete garbage that I wouldn't even consider it a throughput CD. It is not strong enough for me to justify changing the way I use SWG if I had that set bonus. Most Resto Shaman are either holding onto 2pc T15 (which is still a good 2-3% output increase and applies the glyphed HST damage reduction to a 3rd target with Rushing Streams) or are just getting T16 2pc and going for the much better itemized Spirit/Crit or Spirit/Haste offset items.

They have in the past said that set bonuses are budgeted around a 2%-3% output increase per set bonus. This bonus is clearly about 1/4 to 1/6 of its budget currently. It's possible they will change it - they did change the old T14 4 piece from giving a 3rd stack of Tidal Waves after everyone convinced them how terrible it is, but it will probably not be touched until 5.5.
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90 Tauren Priest
0
It seems like it's just doing the base amount the spell heals for? I don't have the 4pc but the size of your Chain Heal intrigues me.

My chain heal hits for ~8k with absolutely no gear on, in Elemental specialization, including 10% spellpower. 7.8k seems about right if you exclude the SP buff (which it would if the 4pc isn't benefitting from stats or modifiers like Purification).

Not saying this is how it *should* work but how it seems to be working...
Edited by Qùess on 10/7/2013 2:24 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
My chain heal hits for ~8k with absolutely no gear on, in Elemental specialization, including 10% spellpower. 7.8k seems about right if you exclude the SP buff (which it would if the 4pc isn't benefitting from stats or modifiers like Purification).


Kind of what I am thinking but if that were the case it should be worded differently on the set bonus.

edit: put in a ticket will post response.

edit2 : title change
Edited by Harpoa on 10/7/2013 3:32 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
11920
It does scale with your spell power, just ... not very much. I spent a few hours testing it on PTR and came up with the equations for its versions of Chain Heal, Greater Healing Wave, Healing Surge and Healing Wave. It 'mimics' your spells by casting a spell of its own with the same name, that's all.

Details here:
http://healiocentric.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/watertotemgate-5-4-and-the-resto-shaman-controversies/#t16

All of its healing is smart heals - it doesn't target the same target you did. What fight did you have that GHW result in, Harpoa? If it was during Immerseus slimes or on Malkorok that's totally possible - those fights both have smart-heals-ignore-these-targets-so-screw-you-Shaman! mechanics, and that sort of log entry looks a lot to me like your Spirit Champion tried, and failed, to heal Immerseus slimes.

Now, I was optimistic about it when I wrote that article, thinking that they'd fix the Chain Heal detection so it'd properly target players in a cluster, in which case it could pull the numbers I calculated in that post. This hasn't been the case (and I'm trying to get this fixed, too). Since it hasn't been fixed, I'm less optimistic about it, but I did just get the 4pc this week so I'll be trying it out next week on a few select fights - basically any fight where I use AG well. I'll see how it goes there; I suspect that even if I get it to do its full potential it'll still seem pretty lacklustre compared to the ~300k hps I pull on AG-friendly fights :P

Our 2pc is a lot of throughput though (averaging 7% of my throughput when I recalculate to add Nature's Barrier on to my numbers), so I'm wondering if they think that it's fine that our 4pc is so low when our 2pc is so high. Like, you know, on average the two set bonuses are 4% throughput each. Of course there's a couple of problems with this, like for one, the 2pc set bonus is extremely boring and non-interactive and just rewards us for doing what we would have done anyway, and for two, it doesn't make sense to penalise us for having a strong 2pc bonus by giving us a weak 4pc when both of these things are under their control, you know?

I hate having a throughput CD tied to my SWG, though. Man, do I hate it. Pretty sure when the 4pc bonus was announced, my twitter reaction was "WHAT. And NO."
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
10/07/2013 05:22 PMPosted by Dayani
What fight did you have that GHW result in, Harpoa?


It was during normal Garrosh during empowered whirling corruption so there was a lot of damage going out which is what really puzzles me.

10/07/2013 05:22 PMPosted by Dayani
It does scale with your spell power, just ... not very much.


I am not sure it does. Naked my CH hits for 9000-10000. So it is basically hitting for 25% less than that per hit average.

Edit: Details of Spirit Champion throughout encounter

Chain Heal 338074 68.8 % 28 4716.5 132062 15 13734.1 206012 43 7862.2 338074 - - 68.5 %

Healing Surge 153628 31.2 % 3 30923.3 92770 1 60858.0 60858 4 38407.0 153628 - - 0.0 %

Greater Healing Wave 0 0.0 % - 1 0.0 0 1 0.0 0 - - 100.0 %

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iwny1b1ng4nvhll6/details/215/?s=9418&e=10014
Edited by Harpoa on 10/7/2013 6:15 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
11920
I did the math and the testing on PTR, and I'm sure that it does. It scales with spell power, just it's like, a comparatively huge base heal + a small % spell power coefficient.

Can't really explain that 0 GHW for Garrosh, that's just ... that's weird. Do you have logs? I wouldn't mind putting together some hard evidence about the failings of the set bonus.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Will try it a little more next week just for data and posting purposes, but something seems very wrong.
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100 Draenei Shaman
11920
Cheers for the logs :)
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
I'll let you know what fights I use it for this upcoming lockout to see if there is any real variation. Will probably drop the 4pc past farm content though.

edit: Thing that really freaks me out are the CH numbers.

Average hit was 4716.5
Average crit was 13734.1

How can it be critting for 200% over initial heal?
Edited by Harpoa on 10/7/2013 6:41 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
11920
Remember the averages are of the effective healing, not the total healing. World of Logs has always displayed stuff that way. Basically you got lucky with your crits being on targets who had actual health deficits while the non-crits (of which you had a lot more) were doing some overhealing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iwny1b1ng4nvhll6/xe/?s=9418&e=10014&x=type%3DTYPE_HEAL+and+sourcename%3D%22Spirit+Champion%22

That link shows all the spells your Spirit Champion cast. It ... really doesn't look like the extra healing was at all helpful. Almost everything is 100% overheal. The GHW, for example, was a single crit on a full-health DK. Your Spirit Champion's chain heals were bouncing 4 times a lot of the time, it's just, nobody in range seemed to need the healing.

Now it's impossible for me to tell if there were other players who needed healing at the time and the Spirit Champion was derping and chose the wrong targets, or if you popped the CD at a time when the healing just wasn't necessary, because that information is really hard to find in WoL.

This does seem curious, like, if it was during Whirling Corruption - well, my raid doesn't take much damage during that, because I raid with 11 billion absorption healers /sigh. But there ought to have been enough damage that the Spirit Champion wouldn't be overhealing like that... hmm.
Edited by Dayani on 10/7/2013 6:53 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Thx for the clarification.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
The T16 2pc only really hits 7%+ of effective healing on fights where there is very little to heal/high overhealing (thus making absorbs highly effective at sniping). On fights where there is actually meaningful quantities of healing to be done (including most heroic progression on the harder bosses like Spoils, Thok, Blackfuse), I have seen it drop as low as 3%. It's in line with what the Monk 2 piece is doing, and I don't see it as highly over budget.

I also don't think the 2 piece being strong is an acceptable argument for the 4 piece being completely terrible. It degrades the value of our tier, and it certainly is not going to be worth taking 4 piece and it's terrible 0.5% output increase over better itemized offset pieces, especially warforged when the 3 of the 5 tier pieces have terrible itemization.

The bottom line is, I can't see a 0.5% power gain from a 4 piece bonus as being anything other than broken and a huge oversight. Other healers have 4 piece bonuses that are 4 to 10 times stronger than ours. Even Monks, who have a 2 piece that is as good as ours have a 4 piece that is giving them about 8 times the power gain. It's not acceptable and it should be fixed. As a bare minimum, the duplicated spells should be duplicated at 100% of the power of the original spells. This would put the set bonus up to about a 2% gain, which would actually make it an option worth considering, and even then would only be at the low end of where set bonuses are supposed to be budgeted for.
Edited by Tiberria on 10/7/2013 7:26 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14215
I don't particularly like the 4pc bonus, and it's definitely been obvious since PTR that it's very weak. But keep in mind that a big part of it's effectiveness truly depends on being used at the right times and with the right spells (spells that it can actually duplicate).

That said, the spells its casting do appear to be noticeably weaker than the casting shaman's. Whether that's a lack of SP scaling or something else entirely, I do not know.

However, there are problems with your logs, Harpoa, that do not quite do the 4pc justice when looking at its numbers.

Use 1: Used in a high-overheal scenario. There wasn't much for the 4pc to actually *do*.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iwny1b1ng4nvhll6/xe/?s=9475&e=9491&x=type+in+%28TYPE_HEAL%2C+TYPE_AURA%29%0D%0Aand+sourcename+in+%28%22Harpoa%22%2C+%22Spirit+Champion%22%29%0D%0Aand+spell+in+%28%22Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Greater+Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Chain+Heal%22%2C+%22Healing+Surge%22%2C+%22Spiritwalker%27s+Grace%22%29

Your CH Overheal: 65%
Spirit's CH Overheal: 71%

----
Use 2: Only cast 3 spells.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iwny1b1ng4nvhll6/xe/?s=9665&e=9681&x=type+in+%28TYPE_HEAL%2C+TYPE_AURA%29%0D%0Aand+sourcename+in+%28%22Harpoa%22%2C+%22Spirit+Champion%22%29%0D%0Aand+spell+in+%28%22Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Greater+Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Chain+Heal%22%2C+%22Healing+Surge%22%2C+%22Spiritwalker%27s+Grace%22%29

----
Use 3: Another high-overheal scenario.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iwny1b1ng4nvhll6/xe/?s=9829&e=9845&x=type+in+%28TYPE_HEAL%2C+TYPE_AURA%29%0D%0Aand+sourcename+in+%28%22Harpoa%22%2C+%22Spirit+Champion%22%29%0D%0Aand+spell+in+%28%22Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Greater+Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Chain+Heal%22%2C+%22Healing+Surge%22%2C+%22Spiritwalker%27s+Grace%22%29

Your CH Overheal: 79.1%
Spirit's CH Overheal: 65.6%

----
Use 4: Only cast 2 applicable heals.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iwny1b1ng4nvhll6/xe/?s=9965&e=9981&x=type+in+%28TYPE_HEAL%2C+TYPE_AURA%29%0D%0Aand+sourcename+in+%28%22Harpoa%22%2C+%22Spirit+Champion%22%29%0D%0Aand+spell+in+%28%22Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Greater+Healing+Wave%22%2C+%22Chain+Heal%22%2C+%22Healing+Surge%22%2C+%22Spiritwalker%27s+Grace%22%29

----
Summary
In each case, there's no doubt that its spells are not hitting nearly as hard as the casting shaman's. However, it's still typically providing a 15-50% healing bonus while active for cast-time heals that it affects. This is part of the key: it has to be used effective with the right spells to really seem to be worth any real benefit.

That said, I'd probably just go for better itemized off pieces, and keep 2pcT15 for a while instead of trying too hard to make 4pcT16 work, personally.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17095
My initial assumption was that the game considers the Spirit as your guardian, and guardians only borrow a fraction of your stats, ergo a considerably weaker "mimic".
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
The problem with evaluating T16 4pc in terms of using the "ideal spells" when it's up is that it inflates the perceived value of the set bonus. Ideally, you want to use it right after dropping Healing Rain, with RT on CD and at least 2 Riptides active, and with 15+ seconds remaining on HST. Even if you do that, you are going to reach a situation during the duration of SWG where HR is back off cooldown, as well as have multiple opportunities to recast Riptide. Not immediately casting HR when it's available is highly likely to be a far bigger output loss than you gain from catering to the set bonus (essentially by spamming CH). In a lot of situations, not refreshing or casting RT on a new target is also going to be a bigger throughput bonus (particularly if it forces you to continue spamming CH on a target that is either full health or without Riptide on it at all). If you don't line it up perfectly and HST comes off CD during the duration of SWG, it is definitely a major throughput loss to not immediately drop HST.

All of these extra things you pretty much have to do degrade the gains from the set bonus, and need to be taken into account, because just spamming CH for 15 straight seconds is never going to be the optimal thing to do, set bonus or not. On top of that, you have to factor in that in a real progression raiding situation (a) you can rarely align all of those conditions around a time when there is enough damage to make that type of cooldown work (b) the gains are far too trivial to make it worth it for you to hold back on using SWG around when you actually need the mobility. The optimal thing to do is probably going to be to line SWG up with Ascendance and/or Ancestral Guidance (if you spec it) as often as possible, because the optimal cast sequence for it is generally the same as the optimal cast sequence for Ascendance/AG. It just isn't powerful enough to use as a stand alone throughput cooldown.

As far as the strength of the set bonus overall, whether or not it makes sense for the spirit champion to duplicate spells at 100% effectiveness, the set bonus will not be anything but a a waste of time and sup optimal unless it does that. Alternately, it needs to affect more spells. It shouldn't be surprising that a set bonus that only effects about 20% of our typical healing breakdown by 25% is not going to be very strong. The INT gain from replacing 2 tier pieces with 2 offset H Warforged pieces alone will generally add more than the 0.5% output the set bonus adds in most realistic scenarios. On top of that, you have the fact that taking 4 piece requires you to take 2 Mastery pieces that you could otherwise replace with Spirit/Crit or Spirit/Haste items. Both Haste and Crit are worth at least 3 times as much per itemization point as Mastery (and twice as much even on a fight like H Thok that should be ideal for Mastery) based on all of the testing with the RSS addon I have done since 5.4. Pieces with Mastery on them are a significant downgrade over pieces with any other stat on them.

In effect, you are likely self nerfing yourself by taking 4 piece unless you really can't get the offset pieces to drop at all. Any raid that gives Resto Shaman tier pieces beyond getting 2 piece is also nerfing itself unless they are rotting, because almost any other spec will get more gain from 3rd and 4th tier pieces than a RShaman.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
However, there are problems with your logs, Harpoa, that do not quite do the 4pc justice when looking at its numbers.


I agree it was not optimal use. And am going to stick with it this week as that log provided is from N Garrosh which the damage isn't that bad. See what happens with it after tonight when clearing back up through at least H IJ.

edit: really think that using the previous tiers set bonuses as optimal gear it bad design. I don't want an OP bonus, just a reasonable one. And saying nothing and just dealing with it doesn't seem like the right way to go either.
Edited by Harpoa on 10/8/2013 4:20 AM PDT
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